Teammate Wars: British Gp

[Senna 0]

I think you are reading too deeply into these quotes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As do I, far too deeply.

[YHR 0]

As you well know qualifying is like a lottery now because of the different fuel loads and strategies. The only only true measure of speed is when a driver makes his first pit stop which gives an indication of the amount of fuel that was on board during the qualifying lap compared to the other drivers. JT, for example, is very fast in qualifying trim but positvely slow in race trim.

That said, F1 is a race to the chequered flag so the ultimate measure of pace is the respective finishing postions of the drivers, as this will reflect both qualifying performance and actual race pace(notwithstanding crashes and bodged pit stops)

So your argument that JV blitzed Massa in qualifying is flawed if his ultimate race pace is slower than FM's

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok so you and Senna are now of the opinion that qualifying performance means nothing in todays F1.

Race pace is also hampered by slower traffic and for that reason it is also flawed. FYI JV's race pace was equal to Massa, at Montreal and in fact he had a quicker race lap then Massa. Also the only time Massa has run more fuel then JV was in the BGP, so I suggest in the case of the Sauber Duo fuel loads are within a few laps of one another and not much of an issue.

[bajo39 0]

As you well know Bajo, Ferrari has the money if they deem the talent is worthy of such a salary

[Fed up 0]

Ok so you and Senna are now of the opinion that qualifying performance means nothing in todays F1.

Race pace is also hampered by slower traffic and for that reason it is also flawed.  FYI JV's race pace was equal to Massa, at Montreal and in fact he had a quicker race lap then Massa.  Also the only time Massa has run more fuel then JV was in the BGP, so I suggest in the case of the Sauber Duo fuel loads are wihtin a few laps of one another and not much of an issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what is the issue...

Oh, I forgot, JV's the best

[bajo39 0]

Ok so you and Senna are now of the opinion that qualifying performance means nothing in todays F1.

Race pace is also hampered by slower traffic and for that reason it is also flawed.

[Senna 0]

Yes, good analysis. I suppose it depends on which seat will be available, the number one or the number two. Massa would make for a good number two but if the number one seat had to be filled, then you are quite right in suggesting that Ferrari would be willing to splurge (within reason) for the best available option in Button.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.

[Senna 0]

Ok so you and Senna are now of the opinion that qualifying performance means nothing in todays F1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither of us said that!

[Senna 0]

So what is the issue...

Oh, I forgot, JV's the best 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...Ever!

[Fed up 0]

Even worse, from Raikkonen's viewpoint, was the fact that teammate Juan Pablo Montoya claimed the victory. The keenly anticipated battle between McLaren teammates Raikkonen and Montoya has, until now, been the non-event of the season. Montoya's early season shoulder injury, coupled with some disappointing performances and the Colombian's disqualification in Canada, has prevented that rivalry from developing fully. The Silverstone win could provide the motivational spark that Montoya needs to up the ante and continue taking points off Raikkonen for the rest of the season.

Autosport/

[bajo39 0]

Even worse, from Raikkonen's viewpoint, was the fact that teammate Juan Pablo Montoya claimed the victory. The keenly anticipated battle between McLaren teammates Raikkonen and Montoya has, until now, been the non-event of the season. Montoya's early season shoulder injury, coupled with some disappointing performances and the Colombian's disqualification in Canada, has prevented that rivalry from developing fully. The Silverstone win could provide the motivational spark that Montoya needs to up the ante and continue taking points off Raikkonen for the rest of the season.

Autosport/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I for one am hoping for the occasional competitive performance from the Columbian...

[YHR 0]

Look, JV is close to Massa but not quite on terms with him. If he can cut out the mistakes that he has regularly been making then I feel very strongly that he will be. I think most of the forum would agree to this and like to move on, okay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know I took the time to reread this whole thread to see what I said that has caused all the counter attacks by Senna and Fed up. Nothing I have said is any different then your summary. I agree 100%. IF he quits making mistakes his pace is as good as Massa's.

Never in this thread did I ever say his perfomance is better then Massa. I said I believed he was getting the most out of the car and his problem is his own perforrmance. These are things I would have thought Senna Fed up would have concurred with, but apparently they have an axe to grind with me.

I mean really, if you go back and look at what I wrote, have I said anything that is not factual?. JV has outqualififed Massa in two out of the last three races, and his race pace is on par with Massa. I clearly aimed critiscm at JV's performance for him getting beat by Massa.

[bajo39 0]

You know I took the time to reread this whole thread to see what I said that has caused all the counter attacks by Senna and Fed up.  Nothing I have said is any different then your summary.  I agree 100%.  IF he quits making mistakes his pace is as good as Massa's.

Never in this thread did I ever say his perfomance is better then Massa. I said I believed he was getting the most out of the car and his problem is his own perforrmance.  These are things I would have thought Senna Fed up would have concurred with, but apparently they have an axe to grind with me.

I mean really, if you go back and look at what I wrote, have I said anything that is not factual?.  JV has outqualififed Massa in two out of the last three races, and his race pace is on par with Massa.  I clearly aimed critiscm at JV's performance for him getting beat by Massa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough. Which McLaren driver do you think performed better in Britian, inclusive of qualifying and making sufficient adjustments for factors out of the drivers' hands?

[YHR 0]

Fair enough. Which McLaren driver do you think performed better in Britian, inclusive of qualifying and making sufficient adjustments for factors out of the drivers' hands?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JPM pushed hard enough to win, and he didn't make any mistakes. He earned the victory.

[Buttonfan 0]

Indeed he did earn the victory

[nojvnof1 0]

"Race performance is paramount and JV has been quite unimpressive in this regard as of late."

I disagree. His performance in Silverstone was abit of a disaster, but apart from that he's been doing quite well, Magny-Cours for example. Before you say it, yes I know Massa was ahead of him when he retired, but JV was on a 2 stopper, Massa on a 3 and was within range to pass him with that strategy. He's certainly improved since his early season debacles.

[bajo39 0]

JPM pushed hard enough to win, and he didn't make any mistakes.  He earned the victory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sigh, I don't think you've answered the question. Nevermind then...

[YHR 0]

Sigh, I don't think you've answered the question. Nevermind then...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The question can only return subjective answers, so I refrained from answering it.

JPM was in the lead and was in control of his own destiny. He needed to look after his engine, and as such should only push hard enough to stay in the lead. Because KR had faster laps is irrelevent in my opinion. He needed to push as hard as he could because he was not in the lead. I would expect him to do that. He also had a newer engine then Montoya so what is the point of the comparison?

I wonder why Kimi seems to have trouble keeping an engine more then one race.??? Maybe that little extra he has, is at the expense of the equipment, and as such he is responsible for some of his own misfortune.

JPM brought home the victory so in my book he outperformed his teammate.

Again this is just my opinion. You can agree or disagree. As I mentioned it is a subjective opinioned reponse that can not be answered conclusively by anybody.

You wanted my opinion so there it is.

[bajo39 0]

The question can only return subjective answers, so I refrained from answering it.

JPM was in the lead and was in control of his own destiny.  He needed to look after his engine, and as such should only push hard enough to stay in the lead.  Because KR had faster laps is irrelevent in my opinion.  He needed to push as hard as he could because he was not in the lead.  I would expect him to do that.  He also had a newer engine then Montoya so what is the point of the comparison?

I wonder why Kimi seems to have trouble keeping an engine more then one race.???  Maybe that little extra he has, is at the expense of the equipment, and as such he is responsible for some of his own misfortune. 

JPM brought home the victory so in my book he outperformed his teammate.

Again this is just my opinion.  You can agree or disagree.  As I mentioned it is a subjective opinioned reponse that can not be answered conclusively by anybody.

You wanted my opinion so there it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need for the disclaimer. Do you think that Kimi would have won had he started the race in the position he earnt (ahead of Montoya on heavier fuel)?

[YHR 0]

No need for the disclaimer. Do you think that Kimi would have won had he started the race in the position he earnt (ahead of Montoya on heavier fuel)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. I think KR is the fastest driver in F1. Recent events have me wondering though if perhaps he needs some coaching with respect to the equipment. To finish first, You must first finish.

Always being the fastest all the time isn't always neccessary to win. Perhaps they should map his engine differently. Obviously the best thing to do is give the driver the most power possible, but if engine blowups are costing the driver and team points then maybe a drastic engineering decision needs to be made to protect the investment. Tune out 500 RPM and see what happens. They have the technology. KR starting from 4th without the penalty is better then pole and a 10 place penalty.

[bajo39 0]

Yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then according to the rules which have been set for Teammate Wars, you would give the round to Kimi as I did. This is what I was getting at...

[YHR 0]

Then according to the rules which have been set for Teammate Wars, you would give the round to Kimi as I did. This is what I was getting at...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I never realized that a subjective, "what if" was part of this thread. That would explain why your opening ranking is different then the actual outcome.

Honestly though, I can't see the relevance. As I mentioned how an F1 pilot drives is very dependant on track position. You drive differently leading a race then you do when you are in mid pack, so comparisons have to be based on very subjective and opinionated views. .ie source for lots of bickering with an unobtainable correct conclusion

An exercise of frustration

[Buttonfan 0]

I would give it to Kimi, because he farely well at a track that is not a good overtaking one, to get pass 10 other cars to get up to 3rd place by the end of the race

[bajo39 0]

I would give it to Kimi, because he farely well at a track that is not a good overtaking one, to get pass 10 other cars to get up to 3rd place by the end of the race

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good reason but there are others. Kimi also outqualified Juan on heavier fuel and set a faster fastest lap. I like your new sig picture.

[Max Mosley 2]

Surely the point of team-mate wars is to assess their respective performances, not merely to repeat who actually was most successful on one particular weekend? On that basis since KR looked quicker we must give the race to him rather than JPM. To do otherwise is to render this thread pointless and we may as well just look at the points table.

[Senna 0]

Surely the point of team-mate wars is to assess their respective performances, not merely to repeat who actually was most successful on one particular weekend?  On that basis since KR looked quicker we must give the race to him rather than JPM.  To do otherwise is to render this thread pointless and we may as well just look at the points table.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.