Slow Coaches & Fast Learners

[Ctrl300 0]

Slow Coaches

Here are some of the longest waits for a grand-prix victory:

Rubens Barrichello 124

Jarno Trulli 117

Giancarlo Fisichella 110

Jenson Button 104

Mika Hakkinen 96

Nigel Mansell 72

Johnny Herbert 71

Ralf Schumacher 70

John Watson 41

Fast Learners

Here are some of the shortest:

Juan Manuel Fangio 2

Jacques Villeneuve 4

Jackie Stewart 8

Damon Hill 13

JPM 15

Ayrton Senna 16

Michael Schumacher 18

Alain Prost 21

David Coulthard 21

Fernando Alonso 30

Kimi R

[UrKo 0]

Interesting post.....How many races JP needed before he won his 1st race??

[Ctrl300 0]

Interesting post.....How many races JP needed before he won his 1st race??

I just added JPM BTW.

[funkejay 0]

Slow Coaches

Here are some of the longest waits for a grand-prix victory:

Rubens Barrichello 124

Jarno Trulli 117

Giancarlo Fisichella 110

Jenson Button 104

Mika Hakkinen 96

Nigel Mansell 72

Johnny Herbert 71

Ralf Schumacher 70

John Watson 41

Fast Learners

Here are some of the shortest:

Juan Manuel Fangio 2

Jacques Villeneuve 4

Jackie Stewart 8

Damon Hill 13

JPM 15

Ayrton Senna 16

Michael Schumacher 18

Alain Prost 21

David Coulthard 21

Fernando Alonso 30

Kimi R

[UrKo 0]

Though, I have to admit, I am no fan of Mika's, and believe that he remains one of the most over-rated (and fragile) WDCs ever.

And why you think that'??

[irishfemalefan 0]

Excellent post Ctrl300!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Though, I have to admit, I am no fan of Mika's, and believe that he remains one of the most over-rated (and fragile) WDCs ever.

i was no fan of his either but i do still think he was a quality driver & worthy of that exclusive title of World Champion

[Null 0]

awwww, mika's great, leave him alone. He might cry

You must remember though, this list plays heavily on the luck of the draw of getting a good race seat when you first start out in F1, like kimi went sauber --> McLaren. People in the first list worked their way up the field moreso than those in the second.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Excellent post Ctrl300!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Though, I have to admit, I am no fan of Mika's, and believe that he remains one of the most over-rated (and fragile) WDCs ever.

Blasphemy! Don't make me send Chuck Norris to your house...

Ctrl300-- Fantastic bit of research.

[funkejay 0]

And why you think that'??

Why do I believe Mika to be over-rated and fragile? Well, let me explain.

It took Mika a tremendously long time to get his first race win, which incidently he inherited from both DC and JV at Jerez in 1997 (DC moved over with three laps to go to allow Mika past on the main straight, and then JV - who was leading at the time - allowed him through at the third to last corner on the very last lap - after his eventful run-in with MS earlier in the race compromised his performance), and it took even longer for his first race win on merit (after DC was once again ordered to let Mika through at Melbourne '98, it seemed fated that McLaren wanted Mika, and not DC, to win the championship - as a result, it is hard to know which races Mika won on merit, and not merely because DC was told not to challenge him).

Nonetheless, DC had dominated Mika in '97, with three wins on merit to Mika's single win, which, for the reasons above, should by rights have been 4 wins for DC over MH. DC also finished the year with 36 points to Mika's 27 (which was only 75% of DC's total points tally).

Then, in '98, seldom have we seen a season where one team so utterly and effectively dominated the competition. The Bridgestone shod McLaren MP4-13s were unmatched by anything on the grid, and in only the first race of the season in Melbourne, had lapped the entire field by the end of the event. And, with Mika having been apparently christened heir to the McLaren throne, there was really nothing in it for David to push him, and Mika merrily romped away to the Championship.

If, however, you want a more detailed analysis of the season, with reasons why I don't think Mika's efforts distinguished him as a WDC - I would be happy to oblige.

Then, we look at '99, where once again, the McLarens were dominant. Add to this the effect of MS's accident at Siverstone that removed him from the championship, and it significantly reduced the relevance of Mika's second title in a row. In addition, despite having what was clearly a dominant car and priority within the team, Mika botched the start of the season so badly that he nearly failed to take the championship (and likely would not have had it not been for Schumi's accident). As it was, he only barely beat Eddie Irvine to the title, and that's not saying very much.

Of course, there was also what has since become the infamous incident at Monza in '99 where Mika crashed while coasting to victory becuase of a silly driver error, and then proceeded to break down and weep openly amongst the trees at trackside, believing he had just lost the championship. Generally speaking, champions are made of tougher stuff than this.

And while I understand that many will point to Mika's harrowing ordeal at Adelaide in '95 (where admittedly, he barely escaped with his life), many F1 drivers have had extremely serious shunts, Panis in Montreal, Schumacher in Silverstone, Villeneuve at Spa, etc. etc. etc., and most, if not all of them, have continued to race and overcome the demons that inevitably result from such experiences.

In the end, I believe that Mika's two titles were more a product of engineering by his McLaren team (who intentionally held DC back) and a lack of competition from the rest of the field, rather than a testament to his talent, and that as a driver, he lacked the mental rigour and tenacity of his contemporaries.

[cavallino 2]

Excellent analysis Jay :eusa_clap:

As for Mika's accident, it makes a nice human interest story, but when you are trying to rate Mika purely as a driver its completely irrelevent.

The list is a bit skewed towards people who landed good drives immediately on the weight of their past experience in competitive series, you know who I am talking about

[funkejay 0]

The list is a bit skewed towards people who landed good drives immediately on the weight of their past experience in competitive series, you know who I am talking about

Thanks Cavallino!!!!

As for the nod to JV - well, all F1 newcomers earn their drives off the backs of drives in lesser series, and JV simply managed to impress more than others apparently. As they say, opportunity is only what you make of it!!!!

[Autumnpuma 0]

funkejay, that was an excellent analysis. Though I'd love to challenge you on it, I cannot because the facts you present are true. The opinions I could take issue with, but to what end? You either like Mika or you don't, and no opinion will change minds

Well done, though.

[UrKo 0]

Good point....but I have to disagree with you on Melbourne '98....Mika would win the race without Mclaren order.

Remember, Mika had to go in pits, realizing that team were not ready for his pit stop even though they have called him in....so he had to drive through.

But all that you have said is true....Still, I think Mika won his title fair....not like MS who pushed DH in 94, then had RB to help him win races...remember Austria last lap????

[Jenson_Rules 0]

I too believe Mika was pretty over rated!

[Ctrl300 0]

In all fairness to Mika he did win aces in 2000 and 2001 when the machinery was not as dominant..

I like this picture BTW

[funkejay 0]

funkejay, that was an excellent analysis. Though I'd love to challenge you on it, I cannot because the facts you present are true. The opinions I could take issue with, but to what end? You either like Mika or you don't, and no opinion will change minds

Well done, though.

Thanks Mike!!! Though I never said I didn't like Mika - in fact, I actually had a lot of sympathy for him and quite liked him as a personality - I just didn't think he was worthy of the hype he received, though, in all honesty, I felt the same way about Damon Hill as well.

Good point....but I have to disagree with you on Melbourne '98....Mika would win the race without Mclaren order.

Remember, Mika had to go in pits, realizing that team were not ready for his pit stop even though they have called him in....so he had to drive through.

But all that you have said is true....Still, I think Mika won his title fair....not like MS who pushed DH in 94, then had RB to help him win races...remember Austria last lap????

Urko, the fact remains, DC was ahead of Mika and he pulled over to let him through under orders from the pitwall. The circumstances that put Mika behind DC are irrelevant - it was DC's win and it was taken from him and given to Mika.

I too believe Mika was pretty over rated!

Well, Ben its good to see there is another point on which we agree!!!!!

In all fairness to Mika he did win aces in 2000 and 2001 when the machinery was not as dominant..

I like this picture BTW

Quite right Ctrl300, he did at that. But I'm not saying that Mika wasn't good enough to win races, he certainly was on his day. The problem was that Mika was tremendously fragile, both psychologically and emotionally, and was very susceptible to a variety of extraneous factors both inside and outside the team. That's why I feel he never would have become champion without the consolidated support of the entire McLaren Team behind him, which came entirely at DC's expense.

[Ctrl300 0]

Thanks Mike!!! Though I never said I didn't like Mika - in fact, I actually had a lot of sympathy for him and quite liked him as a personality - I just didn't think he was worthy of the hype he received, though, in all honesty, I felt the same way about Damon Hill as well.

Urko, the fact remains, DC was ahead of Mika and he pulled over to let him through under orders from the pitwall. The circumstances that put Mika behind DC are irrelevant - it was DC's win and it was taken from him and given to Mika.

Well, Ben its good to see there is another point on which we agree!!!!!

Quite right Ctrl300, he did at that. But I'm not saying that Mika wasn't good enough to win races, he certainly was on his day. The problem was that Mika was tremendously fragile, both psychologically and emotionally, and was very susceptible to a variety of extraneous factors both inside and outside the team. That's why I feel he never would have become champion without the consolidated support of the entire McLaren Team behind him, which came entirely at DC's expense.

Mika beat DC fair and square at Mclaren.

1996

Mika 31 vs DC 18

1997

Mika 27 vs DC 36

1998

Mika 100 vs DC 56

1999

Mika 76 vs DC 48

2000

Mika 89 vs DC 73

2001

Mika 37 vs DC 65

Favouritism goes some way, but the figures speaks for themselves. Mika was the better driver.

[funkejay 0]

Mika beat DC fair and square at Mclaren.

1996

Mika 31 vs DC 18

1997

Mika 27 vs DC 36

1998

Mika 100 vs DC 56

1999

Mika 76 vs DC 48

2000

Mika 89 vs DC 73

2001

Mika 37 vs DC 65

Favouritism goes some way, but the figures speaks for themselves. Mika was the better driver.

Ctrl300, I disagree with any analysis that is based strictly on numbers and stats, without an attempt to understand them and analyze the season behind the stats, to discern what if any explanation there may be for those results.

I take the position that Mika beat DC in '96 because he had consistency within the team and DC had only just joined from Williams. In '97, once DC was settled in the team, he beat Mika quite handily.

Then, in '98, '99, and '00 Mika was able to beat DC because Ron Dennis so obviously favored him and every advantage within the team was given to Mika as a result. DC was relegated to a supporting role for Mika, just as every other driver at Ferrar has been a No. 2 for Michael. That was a conscious decision made by RD to compete against the Maranello based squad, and when it became clear that Mika was not going to carry the challenge in 2001, DC was finally released to race unrestricted against Mika (and beat him once again as soundly as he had in '97).

Mika's total points in their 6 seasons together was 360, while DC scored 296. Given the three years (at least) that the team was solely focused on Mika becoming champion, that is not a significant margin. DC won only 10 races to Mika's 20, granted, but for the same reasons stated above, it would have been much different had each of them recieved equal support from the Team.

Whether DC could have beaten Mika to either championship had McLaren not intentionally skewed the results, we will never know, but what is certain, is that Mika did not beat DC fair and square. He enjoyed a significant and unfair advantage, which was the team's total and exclusive focus on his success.

[ykickamoocow 0]

Ctrl300, I disagree with any analysis that is based strictly on numbers and stats, without an attempt to understand them and analyze the season behind the stats, to discern what if any explanation there may be for those results.

I take the position that Mika beat DC in '96 because he had consistency within the team and DC had only just joined from Williams. In '97, once DC was settled in the team, he beat Mika quite handily.

Then, in '98, '99, and '00 Mika was able to beat DC because Ron Dennis so obviously favored him and every advantage within the team was given to Mika as a result. DC was relegated to a supporting role for Mika, just as every other driver at Ferrar has been a No. 2 for Michael. That was a conscious decision made by RD to compete against the Maranello based squad, and when it became clear that Mika was not going to carry the challenge in 2001, DC was finally released to race unrestricted against Mika (and beat him once again as soundly as he had in '97).

Mika's total points in their 6 seasons together was 360, while DC scored 296. Given the three years (at least) that the team was solely focused on Mika becoming champion, that is not a significant margin. DC won only 10 races to Mika's 20, granted, but for the same reasons stated above, it would have been much different had each of them recieved equal support from the Team.

Whether DC could have beaten Mika to either championship had McLaren not intentionally skewed the results, we will never know, but what is certain, is that Mika did not beat DC fair and square. He enjoyed a significant and unfair advantage, which was the team's total and exclusive focus on his success.

I completly agree. If DC has given equal treatment at McLaren he could have beaten Mika alot more. Unfortuantly we will never know.

Also DC won 10 races at McLaren compared to Mika's 20 but if you take into account the two times DC moved over for Mika then DC won 12 compared to Mika's 18 which is alot more even.

[nojvnof1 0]

I'm with funkejay 100%!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Slow Coaches

Here are some of the longest waits for a grand-prix victory:

Rubens Barrichello 124

Jarno Trulli 117

Giancarlo Fisichella 110

Jenson Button 104

Mika Hakkinen 96

Nigel Mansell 72

Johnny Herbert 71

Ralf Schumacher 70

John Watson 41

Fast Learners

Here are some of the shortest:

Juan Manuel Fangio 2

Jacques Villeneuve 4

Jackie Stewart 8

Damon Hill 13

JPM 15

Ayrton Senna 16

Michael Schumacher 18

Alain Prost 21

David Coulthard 21

Fernando Alonso 30

Kimi R

[Ctrl300 0]

Ctrl300, I disagree with any analysis that is based strictly on numbers and stats, without an attempt to understand them and analyze the season behind the stats, to discern what if any explanation there may be for those results.

I take the position that Mika beat DC in '96 because he had consistency within the team and DC had only just joined from Williams. In '97, once DC was settled in the team, he beat Mika quite handily.

Then, in '98, '99, and '00 Mika was able to beat DC because Ron Dennis so obviously favored him and every advantage within the team was given to Mika as a result. DC was relegated to a supporting role for Mika, just as every other driver at Ferrar has been a No. 2 for Michael. That was a conscious decision made by RD to compete against the Maranello based squad, and when it became clear that Mika was not going to carry the challenge in 2001, DC was finally released to race unrestricted against Mika (and beat him once again as soundly as he had in '97).

Mika's total points in their 6 seasons together was 360, while DC scored 296. Given the three years (at least) that the team was solely focused on Mika becoming champion, that is not a significant margin. DC won only 10 races to Mika's 20, granted, but for the same reasons stated above, it would have been much different had each of them recieved equal support from the Team.

Whether DC could have beaten Mika to either championship had McLaren not intentionally skewed the results, we will never know, but what is certain, is that Mika did not beat DC fair and square. He enjoyed a significant and unfair advantage, which was the team's total and exclusive focus on his success.

I am not sure if there was such a blatant favouratism before every season. RD took the deceision to give Mika the upper hand in 99 and 00 for sure, in order to defend his titles, but for 96, 97, and half 98 I am not certain. 01 was even steven within the team, but remember that Mika was highly dismotivated (is this a word?) and considered retirement all through the season, and promptly did at the end.

But as you pointed out, due to the favouratism in 99 and 00 it is impossible to get a decisive analysis.

BTW, just for fun I'll try to get the DNF records.

Oh, I almost forgot. Jemstride, stop being paranoid, this thread is not about Button. Remember I am on a two month self imposed pro Button period to try and like the guy, something which has resulted in me defending him left and right.

[funkejay 0]

I am not sure if there was such a blatant favouratism before every season. RD took the deceision to give Mika the upper hand in 99 and 00 for sure, in order to defend his titles, but for 96, 97, and half 98 I am not certain. 01 was even steven within the team, but remember that Mika was highly dismotivated (is this a word?) and considered retirement all through the season, and promptly did at the end.

But as you pointed out, due to the favouratism in 99 and 00 it is impossible to get a decisive analysis.

BTW, just for fun I'll try to get the DNF records.

Oh, I almost forgot. Jemstride, stop being paranoid, this thread is not about Button. Remember I am on a two month self imposed pro Button period to try and like the guy, something which has resulted in me defending him left and right.

I agree Ctrl300 - the Mika/Dennis pact didn't evidence itself until Jerez '97, when DC clearly pulled aside on the main straight with three laps to go to let Mika through (I just re-watched the race this weekend, so it is very clear in my memory). Recall as well that by that point in the race JV was a wounded duck and it was clear the McLarens had a nigh on palpable taste of the top step already.

But if there was any doubt at that point that Mika had a special place within both the team and that small lump of black coal that passes for Ron Dennis' heart, it was entirely and finally dispelled in Melbourne when DC again pulled aside to let Mika through for his first win of the '98 season.

Prior to that, in '96 and '97, I'm prepared to acknowledge that there was an essentially even playing field, and again in '01, after Mika had clearly lost his motivation. But that too detracts from his value as a racer, in that DC had clearly had a much harder time over those years, and yet, continued to fight on for what has now amounted to an additional 5 seasons.

But, to my mind at least, there is no question that from Jerez '97 to the end of the '00 campaign, DC was handicapped by his team, and any comparison between the two over those seasons must take that into account.

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Change the subject for fukc's sake, there's more to life than Jenson Button's win record

or lack of

[Geordie 0]

He's a worhty champion and will always be one of my faves!

No whinging will change that so