Rindt Explains 2006 From The Grave

[Autumnpuma 0]

An article on the GPM website about Emerson Fittipaldi got me thinking that he and Jochen Rindt, back in 1970, had answered questions about Alonso and Button. First off, we all know (or should know) that the new aero regulations put into effect a few years ago have steadily reduced front-end grip, making the cars understeer.

Back in '70, at Lotus, a rookie Emerson was struggling with understeer as well. The front-end just wouldn't bite. Rindt, Emmo's teammate, gave him some advice. In the words of Emmo:

"I [Emerson] found the car to be understeering, which was limiting me and Jochen came over and told me how I needed to be more aggressive with the car on corner entry in order to promote some oversteer which would balance the natural understeer. I tried that and it worked, even though this was not my natural style.

[nojvnof1 0]

Well said Mike. Cheers for that article.

[tifosi too! 0]

If your car is understeering the problem is exactly during the turn-in.If you turn in violently the car simply won't make it through.Understeer doesn't neutralise oversteer and vice versa through driving.That 's achieved through setup.FA Renault has been designed and adjusted on his driving style as with all modern drivers in order to be able to achieve the maximum.

[Autumnpuma 0]

If your car is understeering the problem is exactly during the turn-in.If you turn in violently the car simply won't make it through.Understeer doesn't neutralise oversteer and vice versa through driving.That 's achieved through setup.FA Renault has been designed and adjusted on his driving style as with all modern drivers in order to be able to achieve the maximum.

You and I have one thing in common right now...neither of us knows what you're talking about

....doubting the words of Emerson Fittipaldi and Jochen Rindt...now I've seen everything...

[tifosi too! 0]

You and I have one thing in common right now...neither of us knows what you're talking about

....doubting the words of Emerson Fittipaldi and Jochen Rindt...now I've seen everything...

He was talking about 70's car dude...Thats 30+ years ago...

And who said that all the drivers you mentioned have understeer problems?If they did all the had to do was to ask their mechanics for an oversteering car.I see your view on this as an unsuccesful tribute to FA!In that case what does MS do behind the wheel and he is that fast?Oh yea that would be another "wise" thread!!

[Autumnpuma 0]

He was talking about 70's car dude...Thats 30+ years ago...

Oh. I see. So the principles of oversteer and understeer don't apply now, eh? So we've gotten rid of the whole concept of oversteer/understeer with all the nifty electronics and aero? I'll put out the memo to the teams that they no longer have to worry about this. Thanks for you input

[tifosi too! 0]

Oh. I see. So the principles of oversteer and understeer don't apply now, eh? So we've gotten rid of the whole concept of oversteer/understeer with all the nifty electronics and aero? I'll put out the memo to the teams that they no longer have to worry about this. Thanks for you input

There have been considerable changes in F1 since then.You didn't notice?

[monza gorilla 1]

I confess to being gobsmacked by the lack of understanding displayed above. Mike (and Jochen, of course) is quite right I think. Jochen Rindt, maybe the only man to frighten Jack Brabham into having an accident. Going against your natural style may be effective, but I'm sure it would be a very difficult thing to achieve consistently.

[Fed up 0]

Both Apuma and Tifosi have made good points. IMHO it is too simplistic to assert that one drivers is a WDC because he can man handle a car to neutralise the effects of Understeer. Dialing out understeer can easlily be achieved by adjusting front wing or other set up tricks

My understanding of the respective driving styles of FA/KR and the rest comes down to FA's reliance on Traction control. It has been said that FA relies on TC more than most drivers on the grid, with JB barely using the system because of his smooth driving style. FA effectively manhandles the car safe in the knowlede that the TC will take care of his exit from a corner regardless.

[tifosi too! 0]

I confess to being gobsmacked by the lack of understanding displayed above. Mike (and Jochen, of course) is quite right I think. Jochen Rindt, maybe the only man to frighten Jack Brabham into having an accident. Going against your natural style may be effective, but I'm sure it would be a very difficult thing to achieve consistently.

What do you mean by that?I assure you i have good understanding of racing and all of the above mentioned and i know too well not to make wild speculations like that just to try to make a driver look good.Mike and Jochen are not talking about the same thing.Check again...

[monza gorilla 1]

Wild speculation? Make a driver look good? What do you mean? The real point of this thread, to my mind, is to discuss the effect of differing driving styles on an understeering car.

[tifosi too! 0]

Wild speculation? Make a driver look good? What do you mean? The real point of this thread, to my mind, is to discuss the effect of differing driving styles on an understeering car.

Why not simply read Apuma's ideas and then comment?That is lack of understanding...

[ecapdeville 0]

He was talking about 70's car dude...Thats 30+ years ago...

There have been considerable changes in F1 since then.You didn't notice?

Hey Tifosi... they are still running on 4 wheels you know?...

[monza gorilla 1]

Why not simply read Apuma's ideas and then comment?That is lack of understanding...

No my friend, I'm afraid it is you who seems to have trouble interpreting Mike's post and mine, as well as not appearing to understand the principles involved. I assume you are aware of the Scandinavian flick?

[pumpdoc 2]

No my friend, I'm afraid it is you who seems to have trouble interpreting Mike's post and mine, as well as not appearing to understand the principles involved. I assume you are aware of the Scandinavian flick?

Now that's old school!! I've not heard that term in ages.

[tifosi too! 0]

No my friend, I'm afraid it is you who seems to have trouble interpreting Mike's post and mine, as well as not appearing to understand the principles involved. I assume you are aware of the Scandinavian flick?

I 'm kind of disappointed in you MG!!I find it stupid to have to explain to you what Apuma suggests.What he claims is...

It strikes me that so many journalists (and a few former drivers) have been confused over Fernando's unique manhandling driving style. Alonso yanks the wheel violently on corner entry. After reading Rindt's words to Emerson, I would hope it is now clear what Fernando has been doing. Like Emmo, he's been adapting to the understeer by inducing oversteer.

Perhaps they do have Rindt's wisdom around...and only need to look up the grid a bit, at the Spaniard that took the 'youngest F1 Champion' title away from Emerson Fittipaldi. A man who, like Fittipaldi, followed Rindt's advice and became Champion.

I also pointed out that in todays F1 things don't work like that anymore and the car is adjusted to the drivers style, especially when competing for a WDC.That technique maybe worked back then, but is certainly not an option for todays F1.Today is elementary that an F1 driver shouldn't be wrestling with his car but driver and mechanics through telemetry and the feedback from the driver try to make the car as suited to the driver as possible.Neutralizing understeer doesn't make you world champion.Some people called "mechanics" can take care of that.If many times the setup isn't right resulting in an understeering car, that's another story.

Oops i almost forgot...

The basic procedure for performing a Scandinavian Flick is to put your car into a four wheel drift with the nose of the car pointing in the opposite direction to the corner you wish to take. While continuing the slide select a new (usually lower gear) and turn the wheel in the opposite direction (usually full lock). At the point when you decide you need to turn, release the brakes to stop the slide, the back-end of the car should slingshot around and you should be pointing in the direction you want to travel, you then need to apply suitable amounts of clutch and throttle to regain traction and take off at speed in your new direction.

[monza gorilla 1]

I also pointed out that in todays F1 things don't work like that anymore and the car is adjusted to the drivers style, especially when competing for a WDC.That technique maybe worked back then, but is certainly not an option for todays F1.Today is elementary that an F1 driver shouldn't be wrestling with his car but driver and mechanics through telemetry and the feedback from the driver try to make the car as suited to the driver as possible.Neutralizing understeer doesn't make you world champion.Some people called "mechanics" can take care of that.If many times the setup isn't right resulting in an understeering car, that's another story.

Oops i almost forgot...

The basic procedure for performing a Scandinavian Flick is to put your car into a four wheel drift with the nose of the car pointing in the opposite direction to the corner you wish to take. While continuing the slide select a new (usually lower gear) and turn the wheel in the opposite direction (usually full lock). At the point when you decide you need to turn, release the brakes to stop the slide, the back-end of the car should slingshot around and you should be pointing in the direction you want to travel, you then need to apply suitable amounts of clutch and throttle to regain traction and take off at speed in your new direction.

The basic mechanics are still the same, and will not change in the foreseeable future. Remember Honda struggling with understeer? They added front wing and made it worse! I know that's a rather unique example, but I just want to point out that aerodynamic tweaks are not the only answer. Last year the Renault looked very understeery to me, with the drivers having to wind on more lock than might have been expected with a neutral balance. If it is so easy to dial this out with changes in set up, why didn't they do it? You are quite correct in saying that neutralising understeer does not make you WDC, but who claimed that it did?

I'm pleased to see you know your rally driving techniques. Can't remember why I brought it up though.

[tifosi too! 0]

The basic mechanics are still the same, and will not change in the foreseeable future. Remember Honda struggling with understeer? They added front wing and made it worse! I know that's a rather unique example, but I just want to point out that aerodynamic tweaks are not the only answer. Last year the Renault looked very understeery to me, with the drivers having to wind on more lock than might have been expected with a neutral balance. If it is so easy to dial this out with changes in set up, why didn't they do it? You are quite correct in saying that neutralising understeer does not make you WDC, but who claimed that it did?

I'm pleased to see you know your rally driving techniques. Can't remember why I brought it up though.

Autumnpuma suggests that FA has an "advantage" which comes from the fact that he drives the way JR suggested.I said otherwise in a very nice manner i think, but he chose to turn it into a conflict insisting on this ..... argument.The car can be setup to over or understeer but that is just one parameter of the setup.If the driver is faster if the car is under-steering than oversteering, the team will make it understeer.It's all about setup and engineering.

[monza gorilla 1]

Wow, I'm slow today! Now I see where you're coming from and find we're not so far apart as I thought, but I must confess that I still don't see where Mike has suggested that the ability to manhandle an understeering car makes anybody special, just that a change in style can possibly bring better results. I've just read his initial post again (twice) and I still can't see it, although he is suggesting that Fernando is overcoming a problem more successfully than his team mate.

A thought has occurred to me while typing this: perhaps Fernando just likes an understeery car. Maybe it just suits his style? Does anyone remember how the Minardi was set up when he drove there?

[tifosi too! 0]

Wow, I'm slow today! Now I see where you're coming from and find we're not so far apart as I thought, but I must confess that I still don't see where Mike has suggested that the ability to manhandle an understeering car makes anybody special, just that a change in style can possibly bring better results. I've just read his initial post again (twice) and I still can't see it, although he is suggesting that Fernando is overcoming a problem more successfully than his team mate.

A thought has occurred to me while typing this: perhaps Fernando just likes an understeery car. Maybe it just suits his style? Does anyone remember how the Minardi was set up when he drove there?

Good because i was starting to doubt my english-speaking skills !!I simply responded to his post that IMO was misleading.

[stopkidding 0]

An article on the GPM website about Emerson Fittipaldi got me thinking that he and Jochen Rindt, back in 1970, had answered questions about Alonso and Button. First off, we all know (or should know) that the new aero regulations put into effect a few years ago have steadily reduced front-end grip, making the cars understeer.

Back in '70, at Lotus, a rookie Emerson was struggling with understeer as well. The front-end just wouldn't bite. Rindt, Emmo's teammate, gave him some advice. In the words of Emmo:

"I [Emerson] found the car to be understeering, which was limiting me and Jochen came over and told me how I needed to be more aggressive with the car on corner entry in order to promote some oversteer which would balance the natural understeer. I tried that and it worked, even though this was not my natural style.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Sorry I didn't get back to this topic before now. I have to admit, the last line about Fernando was thrown in to 'stir the pot' so to speak. I am correct, however, in my analysis of Fernando's driving style. Disagree with my opinions all you want, but Rindt effectively explains why Alonso drives the way he does.

I could have done this kind of thread on any number of drivers who do the same thing, to lesser degrees, but Fernando's head has been on this Forum's chopping block (unjustly, I feel) for some time now. This is an attempt to shed light on an aspect of Fernando's driving style that has puzzled a few people.

Concerning Button, DC and Fisico: I was making an assumption about why the perhaps haven't been as fast as they could be. I didn't bother to state that their respective cars also contribute to their relative speeds because I would have thought that to be obvious. When looking at driver's styles, I guage them against their teammates, NOT AGAINST COMPETITORS IN DIFFERENT CARS. Give me some credit, please...

I'll post more later, with more detail. Alot of good comments so far, thanks. Monza, thanks for being one of the few that see what I was driving at......

Oh, tifosi, I almost forgot...getting the definition for Scandinavian Flick from a google search is not the same as knowing it...here's the site, verbatim, of where you got your definition...

http://www.tcsracing.org/scandinavianflick.htm

Oops i almost forgot...

The basic procedure for performing a Scandinavian Flick is to put your car into a four wheel drift with the nose of the car pointing in the opposite direction to the corner you wish to take. While continuing the slide select a new (usually lower gear) and turn the wheel in the opposite direction (usually full lock). At the point when you decide you need to turn, release the brakes to stop the slide, the back-end of the car should slingshot around and you should be pointing in the direction you want to travel, you then need to apply suitable amounts of clutch and throttle to regain traction and take off at speed in your new direction.

[bajo39 0]

No my friend, I'm afraid it is you who seems to have trouble interpreting Mike's post and mine, as well as not appearing to understand the principles involved. I assume you are aware of the Scandinavian flick?

And what of the great Nuvolari?

[Autumnpuma 0]

Both Apuma and Tifosi have made good points. IMHO it is too simplistic to assert that one drivers is a WDC because he can man handle a car to neutralise the effects of Understeer. Dialing out understeer can easlily be achieved by adjusting front wing or other set up tricks

True on your first point. It was a simplistic statement, but I trust intelligent posters like you to fill in the gaps . Perhaps manhandling an understeering car alone won't make you a champion, but perhaps not learning to manhandle it makes you slower, and contributes to certain drivers, who are quick, not getting the points-tally they could have (or championship, for that matter)...

I wish your last statement were true, as it would give us much better racing, but it isn't as easy as making front-wing changes or other 'tricks'. When you bring the front wing up (as current regulations have done), you decrease the speed of the air under the front wing. The faster the air, the lower the pressure under the wing and the more downforce. That downforce = more front end 'bite'. The current height of the front-wings greatly decreases the airspeed and hence decreases downforce. To compensate for that, you can increase the angle of 'attack' on the front wing elements, but that only helps a small amount. You get 'deflection' downforce only intead of low-pressure AND deflection at the same time (as you would get if the wings were closer to the ground.)

Basically, that's why ALL the cars on the grid understeer to some extent. Ferrari have a very efficient method of getting bite without using mass dampers or nose-ballast...unless the nose itself is lined with a heavy material that would give it ballast instead of bolting ballast to it... (sorry, tangental thought). I admit to not knowing exactly how they are doing it, but it's effective.

My understanding of the respective driving styles of FA/KR and the rest comes down to FA's reliance on Traction control. It has been said that FA relies on TC more than most drivers on the grid, with JB barely using the system because of his smooth driving style. FA effectively manhandles the car safe in the knowlede that the TC will take care of his exit from a corner regardless.

I agree mostly with this. I think I posted something about Button not relying on TC and Kimi/FA depending heavily on it. However it's not really relevant here because TC helps on turn exit. My post was concerning turn entry.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I also pointed out that in todays F1 things don't work like that anymore and the car is adjusted to the drivers style, especially when competing for a WDC.That technique maybe worked back then, but is certainly not an option for todays F1.Today is elementary that an F1 driver shouldn't be wrestling with his car but driver and mechanics through telemetry and the feedback from the driver try to make the car as suited to the driver as possible.Neutralizing understeer doesn't make you world champion.Some people called "mechanics" can take care of that.If many times the setup isn't right resulting in an understeering car, that's another story.

I respect your right to post whatever you want and I'm interested in your opinions, but if I understand this post of yours correctly, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I can see that you are taking the last line of my original post and ignoring all the rest of it.