Kimi's Potty Mouth

[Autumnpuma 0]

This seems a very sensible idea to me, Mike. If nothing else, even if people don't want to give the idea some respect, don't be as dismissive of it.

It simply boils down to a question of belief. All this banter is amusing, but in the end, you either believe in the divine or you do not.

Murray, when you say Xians, are you afraid to actually type 'Christ' or are you lumping all 'ians' into that..like Martians maybe? Or Venutians? Our Mekon will not be happy to hear this

Seriously, why single out a particular religious figure when you type Xians? Just curious...

[Max Mosley 2]

I believe you just said exactly the same as I did and I originally agreed with Cav - so what was the point of this bit? The only point I am making and have ever made, with regards to this, is that it is what scientists believe now to the best of their considerable knowledge. However, in the future they may find that the phenomenon they observe now and attribute to the universe is expanding, may not actually be due to the universe expanding. Maybe somebody in the future will come up and actually be able to prove that it's not due to that at all - now are you saying this is beyond the realm of possibility or something? You must eliminate the impossible and what you are left with is the truth, however improbable. Now, as I said earlier, I don't know about you, but I cannot eliminate the possibility that some time in the future scientists may disprove this theory, or in fact prove it - can you? Surely everything you have been saying actually agrees with the fact that scientists will keep working and will some day discover the truth?

You are absolutely correct. I thought you, like some others in the world do, were going further and saying "well if science mihgt change then there is no reason to believe anything science says, and so I can believe in the tooth fairy if I want". I was just arguing against that logic by saying that, in the here and now in which we all live, one must choose the most rational thing according to current evidence and knowledge. Some religious people have a "science isn't perfect therefore anything [no matter how ludicrous] goes".

I never said it was the same as religious faith - I said ultimately both require a leap of faith, maybe I should have put it like 'leap of faith', but I was just coining a popular expression, maybe not a good idea in the current context. However, again my point is that scientists cannot actually prove the big bang theory, nor the universe expanding, yet you choose to believe in what they say, even though you know they cannot actually prove it to you - why? Because you choose to believe in what you perceive to be the most rational explanation. I am not saying that scientists not being able to prove the big bang theory, etc is reason for you to believe in God, I am just saying that ultimately you are putting your trust in science's best guess and that is why I said 'leap of faith'.

Is that clear as mud?

Yes you are right to some extent. Whenever you make a choice, lets say whether to reply to me now, you are not entirely sure what will happen. In that silly example for instance, if you reply to me I may come round to your house and kill you. You don't know I won't, but you must make a choice based on the evidence available (no one has yet over-reacted to you like that) and do the rational thing.

Regarding my choice to believe in science, yes its a choice, but I have good reasons for doing so. Namely its the most rational thing to believe nased on current evidence.

Of course I do, I just answer this before.

Great we agree then!

I may side with science and not have a religious bone in my body but that is most likely the greatest sentance in atleast the off topic part of this thread. Fair, logical and diplomatic

Diplomacy = apathy

Murray, when you say Xians, are you afraid to actually type 'Christ' or are you lumping all 'ians' into that..like Martians maybe? Or Venutians? Our Mekon will not be happy to hear this

Seriously, why single out a particular religious figure when you type Xians? Just curious...

I'm afraid to insult muslims as they'll probably blow me up. Xians have at least that going for them!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Diplomacy = apathy

Apathy is a fine tool, when properly used

[Schumikonen 2]

Are you saying you are certain about things that you know you have no good reason to be certain about?

Yes and no, I am certain about things that as a God's believer I have good reasons to be certain about, I have seen a lot of prophecys becoming reallity ( if I can say it this way) not only porphecy in the bible we got actual prophets today I what they speak in hte name of God ot Jesus become true or happend what ever the case is, so like you do in science we in church taste and probe prophets to make sure if they really speak in the name of God Deuteronomy 18:

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

We do taste spiritis:

1 John 4

Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

We have a lot of reasons to believe in God and to believe in his word the bible and I am sure that you can find those reasons too but you have to be willing find it.

[Player(1) 0]

Talk of diplomacy got me to add to my sig

[monza gorilla 1]

Murray, when you say Xians, are you afraid to actually type 'Christ' or are you lumping all 'ians' into that..like Martians maybe? Or Venutians? Our Mekon will not be happy to hear this

I was too stunned to reply!

[Max Mosley 2]

Robert Frost would make a terible diplomat. He just insulted half of mankind! Diplomats can be women too you know?

I was too stunned to reply!

You no think we burn Xians good?

[monza gorilla 1]

Apathy is a fine tool, when properly used

I can't be bothered to use it though......................

You no think we burn Xians good?

I think you Earthlings do a fine job.

[Max Mosley 2]

We have a lot of reasons to believe in God and to believe in his word the bible and I am sure that you can find those reasons too but you have to be willing find it.

Well I do try to keep an open mind. I went to Church for most of my life and am always interested in going again. Sometimes I enjoy going. I just don't see any reason to believe.

I can't be bothered to use it though......................

I think you Earthlings do a fine job.

Are you the Mekon then Russ?

[monza gorilla 1]

Are you the Mekon then Russ?

The forum's very own. As advertised in my avatar wotsit. One day I shall defeat Dan Dare and overthrow the Earth with my army of Treens!

[pabloh20 1]

You are absolutely correct. I thought you, like some others in the world do, were going further and saying "well if science mihgt change then there is no reason to believe anything science says, and so I can believe in the tooth fairy if I want". I was just arguing against that logic by saying that, in the here and now in which we all live, one must choose the most rational thing according to current evidence and knowledge. Some religious people have a "science isn't perfect therefore anything [no matter how ludicrous] goes".

Ohh, I see what you were getting at now, sorry. Well, as you've already realised, I didn't actually mean it like that or even believe it like that either.

Yes you are right to some extent. Whenever you make a choice, lets say whether to reply to me now, you are not entirely sure what will happen. In that silly example for instance, if you reply to me I may come round to your house and kill you. You don't know I won't, but you must make a choice based on the evidence available (no one has yet over-reacted to you like that) and do the rational thing.

Regarding my choice to believe in science, yes its a choice, but I have good reasons for doing so. Namely its the most rational thing to believe nased on current evidence.

Ok, starting to scare me now - I never even considered that before. If I have sleepless nights because of you........

I don't doubt you have good reasons for doing so at all, Murray and I have no problem with it either - as I said to you before, you have your own path in life to find/follow, as do we all. Just remember that people who choose to believe in God will also have equally good reasons for doing so, even if we don't agree or understand the reasons.

Talk of diplomacy got me to add to my sig

I like that one!!

[Max Mosley 2]

The forum's very own. As advertised in my avatar wotsit. One day I shall defeat Dan Dare and overthrow the Earth with my army of Treens!

Ah I see it now! I suppose Bajo is Dan Dare (now I see why he never gives his surname).

Ohh, I see what you were getting at now, sorry. Well, as you've already realised, I didn't actually mean it like that or even believe it like that either.

Ok, starting to scare me now - I never even considered that before. If I have sleepless nights because of you........

Sleep well this night my friend. It might be your last.

I don't doubt you have good reasons for doing so at all, Murray and I have no problem with it either - as I said to you before, you have your own path in life to find/follow, as do we all. Just remember that people who choose to believe in God will also have equally good reasons for doing so, even if we don't agree or understand the reasons.

I like that one!!

But they're wrong!

[Schumikonen 2]

Well I do try to keep an open mind. I went to Church for most of my life and am always interested in going again. Sometimes I enjoy going. I just don't see any reason to believe.

Maybe that's because you were following a religion enstead of following Jesus, try to find your reasons in him and in the bible not in any religion and maybe you will have a different experience like I did, No religion can help you to be safe and no religion is good eather, you just need Jesus if you read the gospels you will find that he was just pointing at himself as the way not at any religion, that's why we are called christians because we follow Jesus, not a religion, there is something else that you need to know and is this:

2 Corinthians 3

14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

You need to turn to Jesus to understand everything in the bible, I am not talking about any religion just about Jesus

John 14

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

[pabloh20 1]

Sleep well this night my friend. It might be your last.

I lied - I'm actually to lazy to stay awake anyway, so I will sleep well!!

But they're wrong!

As I see it, Murray, you only have 2 faults - everything you say & eveything you do!!

[Schumikonen 2]

I don't doubt you have good reasons for doing so at all, Murray and I have no problem with it either - as I said to you before, you have your own path in life to find/follow, as do we all. Just remember that people who choose to believe in God will also have equally good reasons for doing so, even if we don't agree or understand the reasons.

I like that one!!

well said, this is just the truth and nothing more tahtn the truth

[Max Mosley 2]

Maybe that's because you were following a religion enstead of following Jesus, try to find your reasons in him and in the bible not in any religion and maybe you will have a different experience like I did, No religion can help you to be safe and no religion is good eather, you just need Jesus if you read the gospels you will find that he was just pointing at himself as the way not at any religion, that's why we are called christians because we follow Jesus, not a religion, there is something else that you need to know and is this:

Yes there's some truth to that. I have a particular problem with organised religion. As I said above, I think they just brainwash you.

[Schumikonen 2]

But they're wrong!

How can you say this or be sure of this?

You can live as an atheist but you can be wrong and then you will have to face the truth that youwasted your life in a lie that for you looked like true (like some other in history) than you can face your eternity in hell just for not believing in God, what I mean with this is if you believe in God and he doesn't exist you have nothing to loose but if you are an atheist and he really exist then you have everything to loose and nothing to gain.

Again if God exists:

Atheist loose everything and win nothing.

Believers wins everything and loose nothing

If God doesn't exist:

Atheist win nothing and loose nothing.

Believers loose nothing and win nothing.

So what's the point of being atheist if you can only loose?

Yes there's some truth to that. I have a particular problem with organised religion. As I said above, I think they just brainwash you.

I am actually going to an evangelical church but that doesn't means that I agree with everything in there, they do a lot of things that are just out of the bible like church's rules I could give you a list of those thing but i don't think it is a good idea to talk about that here, anyway I am in the church trying to change those thing and to make everybody understand that we should be doing things like the bible teach and do things as the bible says.

[Max Mosley 2]

How can you say this or be sure of this?

You can live as an atheist but you can be wrong and then you will have to face the truth that youwasted your life in a lie that for you looked like true (like some other in history) than you can face your eternity in hell just for not believing in God, what I mean with this is if you believe in God and he doesn't exist you have nothing to loose but if you are an atheist and he really exist then you have everything to loose and nothing to gain.

Again if God exists:

Atheist loose everything and win nothing.

Believers wins everything and loose nothing

If God doesn't exist:

Atheist win nothing and loose nothing.

Believers loose nothing and win nothing.

So what's the point of being atheist if you can only loose?

Ah the old Pascal's wager! This is a poor argument my friend, once explained. First, its not just a case of God or no God. What if the muslims are right and you believe in Christianity? I'll see you in Hell and we can chat in person! If you include all options there is no reason to believe.

Second I don't think God would look to kindly on someone who went to Church simply to avoid the possibility of Hell. Its not genuine love. If I'm to be damned, then let it be for who I truly am!

I am actually going to an evangelical church but that doesn't means that I agree with everything in there, they do a lot of things that are just out of the bible like church's rules I could give you a list of those thing but i don't think it is a good idea to talk about that here, anyway I am in the church trying to change those thing and to make everybody understand that we should be doing things like the bible teach and do things as the bible says.

Good for you. Do they ever change in response to your comments?

[Schumikonen 2]

Ah the old Pascal's wager! This is a poor argument my friend, once explained. First, its not just a case of God or no God. What if the muslims are right and you believe in Christianity? I'll see you in Hell and we can chat in person! If you include all options there is no reason to believe.

Second I don't think God would look to kindly on someone who went to Church simply to avoid the possibility of Hell. Its not genuine love. If I'm to be damned, then let it be for who I truly am!

Good for you. Do they ever change in response to your comments?

The man is save by faith not by love, the bible says, "But without faith is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11

Luke 7:50

Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Max Mosley 2]

Yep. I guess if I died right now I'd go to Hell. CHanging the topic slightly, I think its a bit vindictive for God to torture me for eternity, can't He forgive?

I'm surprised any of your fellow Church-goers change! You must be very persuasive.

[Schumikonen 2]

Yep. I guess if I died right now I'd go to Hell. CHanging the topic slightly, I think its a bit vindictive for God to torture me for eternity, can't He forgive?

I'm surprised any of your fellow Church-goers change! You must be very persuasive.

Yes God can forgive he gave you a way to reach forgiveness and is trunning to Jesus who is God and came to earth to died fro your sins so you don't have to pay for them, Jesus paid the debt for you, but if you reject this gift athen you will have to pay for your sin the bible say that if you don't believe in God you are making him a lier and tht is a sin too, so the answer is yes he forgive and he wants to frogive you and is waiting for you, but like I said before if choose not to be saved there is only another place for you, there's no middle point here, you are saved or not, and you can be saved today if you choose to.

I'm not very persuasive but there are people in church who does not know waht the bible says about a lot of things and when they find those thing they choose to do what's right too, you can be sure that almost all the people in any religion is trying to do their best but they don't have the right info because most of them think that they don't have to study the bible, they just go to church and accept everything that is said in there as the word of God (sometimes or most of the times they are force to believe this) but with a little research in the bible they find the true and the true set them free.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Yep. I guess if I died right now I'd go to Hell. CHanging the topic slightly, I think its a bit vindictive for God to torture me for eternity, can't He forgive?

Actually, that is a very bad translation of the texts. The word for 'hell' is either 'holding place' (for the angels) or the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem. The only mention the bible makes about what happens, that is even remotely like the 'hell' you are picturing, is that they will become like the smoke from fat burning up, or somesuch thing. Basically, it says you (not you personally, Murray!) will not exist anymore.

To be fair, it also says that he doesn't wany any of his children to have that fate. Very few will, actually. At some point we will all know the truth (every knee shall bow), and only the ones that still insist on spitting in God's eye will get that ultimate oblivion. It's quite fair, actually. In the original texts, God isn't this overlord the King James translation makes Him out to be. He's more of a father figure, looking out on a creation he loves that just insists on doing everything but love Him.

There's the condensed and highly abridged version

[Max Mosley 2]

Cheers Mike. Oblivion ain't so bad!

[Schumikonen 2]

Actually, that is a very bad translation of the texts. The word for 'hell' is either 'holding place' (for the angels) or the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem. The only mention the bible makes about what happens, that is even remotely like the 'hell' you are picturing, is that they will become like the smoke from fat burning up, or somesuch thing. Basically, it says you (not you personally, Murray!) will not exist anymore.

To be fair, it also says that he doesn't wany any of his children to have that fate. Very few will, actually. At some point we will all know the truth (every knee shall bow), and only the ones that still insist on spitting in God's eye will get that ultimate oblivion. It's quite fair, actually. In the original texts, God isn't this overlord the King James translation makes Him out to be. He's more of a father figure, looking out on a creation he loves that just insists on doing everything but love Him.

There's the condensed and highly abridged version

(New International Version)

Matthew 5:22

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:29

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 23:15

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Matthew 23:33

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Mark 9:43

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Mark 9:45

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

Mark 9:47

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

About what will happend in there we got this:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Oh men this is real, believe it

Matthew 8:12

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:42

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50

and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13

"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 24:51

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Luke 13:28

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Matthew 18:8

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jude 1:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)

11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Mark 9

48where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

About how many will be thrown in there?:

Romans 9:27 (New International Version)

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Matthew 22:14 (New International Version)

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Revelation 20 (New International Version)

Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth

[Schumikonen 2]

I'll be taking a vacation for seven days (11 with the weekends), I will try to go to the library to keep in touch with all of you because I don't have a computer yet, I trying to get one but I am still building my credit in USA, so I may be a little slow here and like the terminator said "I'll be back"