Schumi: 'I Couldn't Work With Dennis'

[tifosi too! 0]

It is very obvious that there was. There where several occasions where rubens was faster and had to move, and the same thing happened to massa as well. Like it or lump it, Schumacher was an arrogant glory hog that would not drive for a team in which his team mate would be a threat to him. Just ask yourself why he refused to drive alongside Raikkonen next year (and trust me its nothing to do with motivation).

Since when contracts are mentioned and regarding their terms "obvious speculations" are passed on as terms?The drivers themselves didn't even hint at such terms!If thats what you like to think it's ok!!MS is turning 38 next January,has a family,is a billionaire,has broken almost all records in F1,7 times world champion,most popular driver....need i say more?Wouldn't you quit?

[Shane2 0]

Yeah and he is also a cheat and an arrogant swine, but as you said, each to their own eh?

Everyone knows Ferrari used team orders, it is a fact not fiction. If some retards do not want to believe it because they believe german boy is some kinda knight in shining armour, then theyre welcome to that. If they never used team orders come up with explanations of Austria 2002 and the race in 98 (cant remember which without re-watching the season) where they deliberately made irvine drive slow to allow him to get away.

[Quiet One 15]

Yeah and he is also a cheat and an arrogant swine, but as you said, each to their own eh?

Everyone knows Ferrari used team orders, it is a fact not fiction. If some retards do not want to believe it because they believe german boy is some kinda knight in shining armour, then theyre welcome to that. If they never used team orders come up with explanations of Austria 2002 and the race in 98 (cant remember which without re-watching the season) where they deliberately made irvine drive slow to allow him to get away.

Shane, my good friend, you can produce some good posts when you can control your temper! Don't turn yourself into the Anti-MS's Cavallino for god's sake! (And even Cav is more argumentative than plainly insulting) Insulting ppl with other beliefs is not a good choice and hardly a convincing argument. Ok, so you don't like MS (I don't, either) but ppl are entitled to like him if they want to! Now, breath deeply a couple of times and guive us one of your good, well-informed anti MS posts.

Back on topic, I don't want to extend the post too much but the link to the article is easily available so if you read it (I read the ITV article) MS said that he believed that it is Ok for a team to give 2 drivers exactly the same equipment at the start of the season, but as soon as one proves to be the best the team should support him (I think he said "F1 is no kindergarten") Now, that comes right after he said that he does not have the same view on team management as RD so it seems only natural to think that the difference was in the support a number one driver should get. MS never hide the fact that he always enjoyed being the number one driver and even if i don't like the idea as a fan, i can't blame him for that...after all which driver would refuse to be given all the team's support?. I don't see why the pro-MS guys got so angry for pointing this. The article isn't unveilling anything new on how Ferrari and MS behaved. Some ppl likes it, some of us don't. It's no illegal, it's not even unethical. It's a matter of tastes.

[Shane2 0]

Yeah as long as one of the drivers isn't him

I don't really have an informative post to make, although it is commonly known that they used orders in the favour of MS i do not have the contract sheets. What makes me laugh is people just obliviously ignoring the obvious facts because they cannot let go of their beliefs that he is some kind of superhero.

[pabloh20 1]

Yeah and he is also a cheat and an arrogant swine, but as you said, each to their own eh?

Everyone knows Ferrari used team orders, it is a fact not fiction. If some retards do not want to believe it because they believe german boy is some kinda knight in shining armour, then theyre welcome to that. If they never used team orders come up with explanations of Austria 2002 and the race in 98 (cant remember which without re-watching the season) where they deliberately made irvine drive slow to allow him to get away.

Yeah as long as one of the drivers isn't him

I don't really have an informative post to make, although it is commonly known that they used orders in the favour of MS i do not have the contract sheets. What makes me laugh is people just obliviously ignoring the obvious facts because they cannot let go of their beliefs that he is some kind of superhero.

Geez, have you had too mach caffeine today, Shane ?

Since when have team orders have anything to do with a contract stating that MS team mates have to move over? And let's also not forget that team orders were legal until that race in Austria in 2002, so having proof of team orders prior to that is like having proof that you are allowed to use a wheel at each corner on the car. I'm not too sure how many times this has to be spelt out to you and I do know it has been spelt out to you at least once before, but team orders were legal until just after Austria 2002, but I'm the retard, eh ??

And using Irvine to slow people down so he can get away - geez, how much scraping of the barrel are we going to do here? I am not even going to go into the fact that drivers being the egocentric, self centred people they are, especially Irvine, would soon talk about any such contract at the first opportunity they could. Team orders do not change MS as a driver, in my opinion. Say what you will, but MS and many others, were not just given the right to be the no.1 driver in the team, they earnt the right.

You may think you're this evangelistic angel crusading against Cav and Ferrari, but to just disrespect other people and call them retards just because they have a different point of view to you is just childish in the extreme. What's even worse is that you are actually calling people retards over something completely unrelated - somehow you saying Irvine had a contract stating he has to move over for MS turned in to MS fans being retards because they can't see the fact that his team mate moved out of the way a few times. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to say the obvious fact that Irvine had it in his contract because you said so.

Whatever it is you've had today, don't have it again and just chill out a bit. Now, I feel better!

[Max Mosley 2]

Everyone knows Ferrari used team orders, it is a fact not fiction.

Who has denied it?

If some retards do not want to believe it because they believe german boy is some kinda knight in shining armour, then theyre welcome to that.

I think thats uncalled for. Some people do idolise MS but try to tell them your views politely at first.

Back on topic, I don't want to extend the post too much but the link to the article is easily available so if you read it (I read the ITV article) MS said that he believed that it is Ok for a team to give 2 drivers exactly the same equipment at the start of the season, but as soon as one proves to be the best the team should support him (I think he said "F1 is no kindergarten")

Yes this is my view of how it probably worked. Irvine, Rubens and Massa moved over because it was clear to the team that MS was the better driver, not because it was predetermined 10 years in advance that anyone will move over for Michael, regardless of how fast they are or the championship situation. Irvine benefited from the team approach in 1999 and there weren't obvious team orders in 2005 as far as I could see. Nevertheless as I said initially MS did have an advantage even at th start of the season, but only because everyone fully expected that he would be the championship contender again.

[pabloh20 1]

Who has denied it?

I think thats uncalled for. Some people do idolise MS but try to tell them your views politely at first.

Yes this is my view of how it probably worked. Irvine, Rubens and Massa moved over because it was clear to the team that MS was the better driver, not because it was predetermined 10 years in advance that anyone will move over for Michael, regardless of how fast they are or the championship situation. Irvine benefited from the team approach in 1999 and there weren't obvious team orders in 2005 as far as I could see. Nevertheless as I said initially MS did have an advantage even at th start of the season, but only because everyone fully expected that he would be the championship contender again.

As I said earlier, Murray, I agree with you and I still agree with you. That's exactly how I see it, too

The first thought that came to my mind was if MS had it written into his team mate's contract that they had to move over, well if MS was having a real poor year and his team mate was having a good one, then came a race where MS was close to his team mate, then he could invoke the contract even to the detriment of the team - that's why it doesn't make business sense to me.

[Max Mosley 2]

Indeed Paul.

[Quiet One 15]

As I said earlier, Murray, I agree with you and I still agree with you. That's exactly how I see it, too

The first thought that came to my mind was if MS had it written into his team mate's contract that they had to move over, well if MS was having a real poor year and his team mate was having a good one, then came a race where MS was close to his team mate, then he could invoke the contract even to the detriment of the team - that's why it doesn't make business sense to me.

In fact, that happened in 1999...poor guy Irvine had two formidable contenders: Hakkinen and MS himself

He was an ill-mannered SOB anyways...but a hell of a driver...pity.

I don't know if he was actually ordered to pull back, but the number one status of MS was always obvious, even more so than Alonso's at Renault, or KR at McLaren's, for example. This does not mean that he won because his team mates were inhibited of beating him by contract, it is also very obvious that he was always far superior than any of them, orders or not. Yet, that situation also could (and I said "could"!!) discourage birlliant dirvers to run in the same team as MS. An Alain Prost-Ayrton Senna like pair would have been impossible in the MS era. Pity, again.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes I agree. The fact that Ferrari worked as a team to support whomever they decided was the better driver, or better contender that year, would discourage other top drivers from going there. But thats as much because they were scared of not being the no 1 themselves, as much as MS was scared of them. Why go there when they themselves would benefit in the same way as MS, but to a lesser extent, in another team.

[Quiet One 15]

Yes I agree. The fact that Ferrari worked as a team to support whomever they decided was the better driver, or better contender that year, would discourage other top drivers from going there. But thats as much because they were scared of not being the no 1 themselves, as much as MS was scared of them. Why go there when they themselves would benefit in the same way as MS, but to a lesser extent, in another team.

Ok, you may think i'm stupid, but it never ocurred me to think of it that way, honest! You are right, though!

[Max Mosley 2]

No, I don't think you're silly! I agree with everything you've said.

[Quiet One 15]

No, I don't think you're silly! I agree with everything you've said.

Well i feel like one It is so obvious! That teaches me to be more careful about my own bias!

[Max Mosley 2]

I'm the first to admit MS cheated and didn't treat his team mates very nicely, so I understand your feelings towards him. Personally I don't care about any of that, I would probably have done the same if I could. In fact some of his cheating I really admire, like winning the '98 British GP in real style! Pure genius. But obviously it is perfectly reasonable to dislike that aspect of his character.

[pabloh20 1]

I'm the first to admit MS cheated and didn't treat his team mates very nicely, so I understand your feelings towards him. Personally I don't care about any of that, I would probably have done the same if I could. In fact some of his cheating I really admire, like winning the '98 British GP in real style! Pure genius. But obviously it is perfectly reasonable to dislike that aspect of his character.

Wasn't a fan of his cheating either, I have to admit, but as you say the 1998 British GP was quite funny - improvise, adapt, overcome!!

[Shane2 0]

Actually if you think about this logically you will realise team orders can very well tie in with a driver's contract, and there is no way eddie driving at 3s per lap slower than the car was capable of was a mistake. And you can quit taking the p**s as well (and FYI i dont drink coffee or tea).

If it was about the "better driver" then surely the better driver would have won? right

Did the better driver through the course of the 2002 Austrian weekend win?

What about all the times massa has had a pit stop and came out behind MS? i suppose that was an accident too when he was doing very similar lap times. I also dislike Irvine, and i never have liked him, but that does not change the fact that he had such a clause in his contract.

The point of the matter is that there where several times where MS was not the better driver, and he still got gifted the win. I am of the school that a driver wins because he has the best car under him, and drives better on the day, and if Schumacher really was so goddammed good, why where his team mates so consistantly forced to move over. Surely he would have overtaken them anyway if he was so much better?

All i can say is that i am glad that he is out of the sport for good.

Oh and FYI i dislike cavallino because of the BS he posts about all of the other drivers, it has nothing to do with the fact he is a ferrari fan and everything to do with the fact that he is an imbocile, and i can tell that i am not the only person around here that thinks that.

[pabloh20 1]

Actually if you think about this logically you will realise team orders can very well tie in with a driver's contract, and there is no way eddie driving at 3s per lap slower than the car was capable of was a mistake. And you can quit taking the p**s as well (and FYI i dont drink coffee or tea).

If it was about the "better driver" then surely the better driver would have won? right

Did the better driver through the course of the 2002 Austrian weekend win?

What about all the times massa has had a pit stop and came out behind MS? i suppose that was an accident too when he was doing very similar lap times. I also dislike Irvine, and i never have liked him, but that does not change the fact that he had such a clause in his contract.

The point of the matter is that there where several times where MS was not the better driver, and he still got gifted the win. I am of the school that a driver wins because he has the best car under him, and drives better on the day, and if Schumacher really was so goddammed good, why where his team mates so consistantly forced to move over. Surely he would have overtaken them anyway if he was so much better?

All i can say is that i am glad that he is out of the sport for good.

Oh and FYI i dislike cavallino because of the BS he posts about all of the other drivers, it has nothing to do with the fact he is a ferrari fan and everything to do with the fact that he is an imbocile, and i can tell that i am not the only person around here that thinks that.

They moved over because he had already built up an advantage over them in the championship - is that not obvious at all ?

Anyway, I tell you what you can do, Shane - go and get all the facts and figures of how many races MS team mates moved over for him and obviously the races MS gifted to them, whether inentional or not and come back to me with the figures. Is that fair ?

Edit: You call me a retard and then tell me not to take the pi$$ about drinking tea or coffee?? Seriously ??

[Max Mosley 2]

The point of the matter is that there where several times where MS was not the better driver, and he still got gifted the win.

Yes but only because he had already established that he was the leading driver in the team, and in particular in that year, not because it was guaranteed in writing before the other driver even joined the team that he would have to move over regardless of how good he was. I don't believe Ferrari would ever agree to a demand, even from Michael, to the effect that, even if the other driver turned out to be better in the long term, he would still have to move over for MS.

[Shane2 0]

How the hell am i supposed to realistically do that unless i do it out of memory. He won over 90 races, and i am pretty sure they do not list whether or not he had to defer to his team mate in every single one of his listed wins

Yes but only because he had already established that he was the leading driver in the team, and in particular in that year, not because it was guaranteed in writing before the other driver even joined the team that he would have to move over regardless of how good he was. I don't believe Ferrari would ever agree to a demand, even from Michael, to the effect that, even if the other driver turned out to be better in the long term, he would still have to move over for MS.

Ever occured to you that that is why he never had any classy teammates?

[pabloh20 1]

How the hell am i supposed to realistically do that unless i do it out of memory. He won over 90 races, and i am pretty sure they do not list whether or not he had to defer to his team mate in every single one of his listed wins

Do all the ones that you can remember - ask others for help, if you like. I am not being funny, I just think there is a convoluted mind set that thinks MS only won races by his team mate deferring. Personally, I think you'll find it's a lot less than you imagine, but it's just a guess...

[Shane2 0]

Shall i bash my head against a wall or just crack it open, for feck sake

I NEVER said that he ONLY won races as a result of team orders, i am merely stating that he was about the biggest beneficiary of them that i can ever remember, and that is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain bigger than a walnut

[Max Mosley 2]

Ever occured to you that that is why he never had any classy teammates?

Yes. Feel free to read my earlier posts. They explain my views. Btw I don't think Massa or Rubens are all that bad actually.

Shall i bash my head against a wall or just crack it open, for feck sake

I NEVER said that he ONLY won races as a result of team orders, i am merely stating that he was about the biggest beneficiary of them that i can ever remember, and that is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain bigger than a walnut

No one has denied it.

[pabloh20 1]

Shall i bash my head against a wall or just crack it open, for feck sake

Would you like some help with that ?

I NEVER said that he ONLY won races as a result of team orders, i am merely stating that he was about the biggest beneficiary of them that i can ever remember, and that is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain bigger than a walnut

And here we go again with the insults. Ok I exaggerated a tad, but here's why, with a synopsis and blatant copy of some of your posts -

Irv the swerv had a clause written in his contract that he had to move over for MS - everyone in the paddock knew it and the commentators.

It's obvious MS had no.1 status written into his team mates contracts because everyone could see Ferrari used team orders.

MS wouldn't race for a team that didn't give him no.1 status.

Schumacher was an arrogant glory hog that would not drive for a team in which his team mate would be a threat to him. Just ask yourself why he refused to drive alongside Raikkonen next year (and trust me its nothing to do with motivation).

I don't really have an informative post to make, although it is commonly known that they used orders in the favour of MS i do not have the contract sheets. What makes me laugh is people just obliviously ignoring the obvious facts because they cannot let go of their beliefs that he is some kind of superhero.

Actually if you think about this logically you will realise team orders can very well tie in with a driver's contract, and there is no way eddie driving at 3s per lap slower than the car was capable of was a mistake.

The point of the matter is that there where several times where MS was not the better driver, and he still got gifted the win. I am of the school that a driver wins because he has the best car under him, and drives better on the day, and if Schumacher really was so goddammed good, why where his team mates so consistantly forced to move over. Surely he would have overtaken them anyway if he was so much better?

Ever occured to you that that is why he never had any classy teammates?

See the bit in bold there - that's what you said. So what am I to take from these posts, do you think? On the one hand I am meant to believe that his team mates were forced to move over consistently by order of contract and also that he never really had any classy team mates to race against - which is it?

The best one, in my humble opinion, is that Irv deliberatey drove 3s slower per lap - that's an interesting one....

[Shane2 0]

Well explain it then you smart arsed twat because i do not see you with a better answer for it

[Quiet One 15]

Would you like some help with that ?

And here we go again with the insults. Ok I exaggerated a tad, but here's why, with a synopsis and blatant copy of some of your posts -

Irv the swerv had a clause written in his contract that he had to move over for MS - everyone in the paddock knew it and the commentators.

It's obvious MS had no.1 status written into his team mates contracts because everyone could see Ferrari used team orders.

MS wouldn't race for a team that didn't give him no.1 status.

Schumacher was an arrogant glory hog that would not drive for a team in which his team mate would be a threat to him. Just ask yourself why he refused to drive alongside Raikkonen next year (and trust me its nothing to do with motivation).

I don't really have an informative post to make, although it is commonly known that they used orders in the favour of MS i do not have the contract sheets. What makes me laugh is people just obliviously ignoring the obvious facts because they cannot let go of their beliefs that he is some kind of superhero.

Actually if you think about this logically you will realise team orders can very well tie in with a driver's contract, and there is no way eddie driving at 3s per lap slower than the car was capable of was a mistake.

The point of the matter is that there where several times where MS was not the better driver, and he still got gifted the win. I am of the school that a driver wins because he has the best car under him, and drives better on the day, and if Schumacher really was so goddammed good, why where his team mates so consistantly forced to move over. Surely he would have overtaken them anyway if he was so much better?

Ever occured to you that that is why he never had any classy teammates?

See the bit in bold there - that's what you said. So what am I to take from these posts, do you think? On the one hand I am meant to believe that his team mates were forced to move over consistently by order of contract and also that he never really had any classy team mates to race against - which is it?

The best one, in my humble opinion, is that Irv deliberatey drove 3s slower per lap - that's an interesting one....

Wow...all that came from a brain the size of a walnut?

Shane...why are you so mad at Pablo and Murray? Nobody is attacking you...calm down! They are being perfectly reasonable, you may agree or not but there is no need to insult them.