Iran Captures 15 British Sailors

[pumpdoc 2]

I don't believe all his bs, but there is no flame without fire. And are you saying Flint is still a great town???

Flint is a wasteland, but Moore is a propogandist.

[AutoRacer5 0]

I bought a few of Moore's dvds. They really help keep the kitchen table up straight.

[pumpdoc 2]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070401/ap_on_...ish_seized_iran

Death to Britian, Death to America!!!

When will the madness stop?

[Shane2 0]

Fanatical imbociles. The UK has already provided the evidence that proves Iran are in the wrong. Iran needs to get the message that they have no support from the international community

[pumpdoc 2]

Fanatical imbociles. The UK has already provided the evidence that proves Iran are in the wrong. Iran needs to get the message that they have no support from the international community

You are being too kind.......................

[Quiet One 15]

Fanatical imbociles. The UK has already provided the evidence that proves Iran are in the wrong. Iran needs to get the message that they have no support from the international community

Sorry, but I couldn't find anywhere the evidence you all talk about. Do you have a link to the articles? I am missing half of the story here if I don't get the evidence from UK (and no, I am not being ironic, I really couldn't find any article on that. Just in case! )

[pumpdoc 2]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,20...rss&feed=11

I found this^ and a lot more, scroll to the bottom for links to maps etc.

[Quiet One 15]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,20...rss&feed=11

I found this^ and a lot more, scroll to the bottom for links to maps etc.

Thanks!

[goferrarigo 0]

But haven;t the soldiers giveen a statement that they did breach the waters??(or wa that just torture speaking???

[Shane2 0]

Sorry, but I couldn't find anywhere the evidence you all talk about. Do you have a link to the articles? I am missing half of the story here if I don't get the evidence from UK (and no, I am not being ironic, I really couldn't find any article on that. Just in case! )

I haven't seen the evidence personally but I know it exists

[Quiet One 15]

I haven't seen the evidence personally but I know it exists

I read the link Bruce gave me. These are my thoughts, after watching the videos and reading the articles:

- Iran shows videos of the marines "Confessing" they were trespassing iranian limits.

- London replies by saying they have GPS evidence that the marines were in Iraqi waters.

Cons against both:

- People can be coerced to confess anything. Not usually a very convincing proof.

- GPS is even easier to tamper with, as no one can tell fake data from real withut actual access to the raw records.

Now, I am no expert so this is entirely my personal opinion but I've watched a few times the videos and I think:

- None of the marines seem to be scared or drugged. The male marine is comfortably seated and even shifts around looking for a more comfortable position. If he was forced at gunpoint I think he wouldn't have looked so relaxed. He does not seem to be under the influence of drugs. Ditto for the girl.

- Don't think Iran could have broken the soldier's will enough to make them confess so soon without leaving strong traces of torture or drugs. Thinking otherwise would be thinking the marines were too soft, and I doubt so.

- I still see no point on Iran provoking USA and UK into a war now, they could have done it at some more opportune time, should they want to.(But this is the weakest of my theories, I know). If they did want to that because they want to go to war, I would have expected such move being accompanied by troop movements getting ready for a full scale war. It seems more like something made in the spur of the moment, in a context of builidning tension from both sides.

- If it was a blatant kidnapping in violation of the Geneva conventions, Blair is taking it surprisingly well. He is accepting a "secret" (why secret?) negotiation for the prisoners. It would be a loable attitude in favor of peace, but Blair didn't show in the past such disposition.

Conclusion: I think the iranians at least were convinced that the marines were actually trespassing their limits (and I think the marines think so too). Their reaction in such case has nothing to be condemned as any other country would have acted in the same way. Of course, the cheap anti UK and anti USA manipulation of the masses based on this is disgusting, but so is the way those two countries did when they went to war against Iraq. USA and UK having the saving grace that democracy, as faulty as it may be sometimes, still curbs more barbaric options. (At least, when their soldiers torture and commit war crimes, the papers are there to reveal it and the law can act, even if not the way we wanted to)

Just my thoughts.

[Shane2 0]

I can't disagree with that at all, it is a very curious situation

[Max Mosley 2]

Personally I think the marines were in Iraqi waters, based on statements that many western governments have made. The "confessions" probably aren't the result of torture but are more likely simply due to the fact that being a prisoner in a strange country, with people chanting for your death outside, makes going along with what your captors want the logical course of action. There have been hostages like this before, and they were similarly paraded on TV and "confessed" but when freed, said that they were politely encouraged to "confess". In this case, you only have to look at the letters the girl is supposed to have written to see that no native English speaker would write like that, especially to her parents. Also the videos released strongly suggest that the marines were prompted by an off-screen English speaker, whose words have been edited out. Finally, the very fact that Iran has publicised private letters and paraded hostages on TV surely strips Iran of any credibility it had left.

[Quiet One 15]

Personally I think the marines were in Iraqi waters, based on statements that many western governments have made. The "confessions" probably aren't the result of torture but are more likely simply due to the fact that being a prisoner in a strange country, with people chanting for your death outside, makes going along with what your captors want the logical course of action. There have been hostages like this before, and they were similarly paraded on TV and "confessed" but when freed, said that they were politely encouraged to "confess". In this case, you only have to look at the letters the girl is supposed to have written to see that no native English speaker would write like that, especially to her parents. Also the videos released strongly suggest that the marines were prompted by an off-screen English speaker, whose words have been edited out. Finally, the very fact that Iran has publicised private letters and paraded hostages on TV surely strips Iran of any credibility it had left.

Well, like I said. I am no expert, so I can't really say beyond any doubt that their confessions were real or not. It just seems odd that they show no real signs of stress. Compare them with the videos from the hostages the terrorists show. Those guys look frightened and show signs of harsh treatments, these marines don't (to my untrained eye, at least)

If they are being prompted to say what they say, they certainly did not need much encouragement. I could only assume then that they are somehow drugged.

About the letter I can't really say much. A copy of the actual letter would be good for any specialist to notice if it was written under stress (or even if it was actually written by the girl). The article itself don't say much, and for third parties (meaning anybody except the UK adn Iran) the strongest evidence in all this case is the video of the marines. I don't buy the whole story, but is the only hard evidence to judge this situation.

And don't think for a minute that I approve the Iranian government, in fact I think it is a despotism based on religion, and as such it should be good if it was replaced by a democracy (a real democracy, not the pathetic shadow of a government iraq has now). It would be great if the major countries supported democratic governments. Too bad they support goverments based only in their own interests. So a country can have the biggest butcher on earth but, as long as he does not interfere with the interests of the major countries, he will be probably considered just "a strategic ally". Of course, if he changes his mind, then everybody will suddenly discover he is evil incarnate and he must be overthrown in the sake of democracy. Saddam killed and tortured for 35 years (most of them under the active support from USA) before USA decided Iraq needed a democracy. Latin American countries underwent a similar holocaust with the active support of USA and the USSR (which denied any intent to condemn the argentinean military government despite their killings, because they sold cheap wheat to the hungry russians)

I am ready to accept UK and USA's good will to implant democracy in the whole world, because it IS the best government so far. Just would hope their intents would be more honest than they usually seem, that would help a lot.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes I agree we've been very hypocritical in the past. One can't really deny it. In my view the Iraq war was a change from that, in that we at least tried to change Iraq for the better. And on the marines, I don't think they are under too much stress. It's just that there's no reason to refuse what the Iranians ask. They know that no one in Britain will believe that they have said those things freely.

[goferrarigo 0]

Good 2 posts Andres, I agree with what you say....

[AutoRacer5 0]

Once the Middle East understands Separation of Church and State, then there will be peace.

Over/Under says about 750 years.

[Moose11 0]

I think you can pretty much bet your life that the captors are telling these soldiers what to say. They may not be getting beat or drugged but these guys will still be scared for their lives and will toe any line to get free. They also called for Britain to pull out of Iraq - you think these soldiers would say that off their own free will.. the captors will tell them exactly what to say and will certainly edit any letters they try to write - propiganda.

I'm pretty sure they where in Iraqi waters... the speed, efficency and numbers in which the Iranians took the British ship has all the hallmarks of a planned operation.

[Shane2 0]

Not to mention the fact they just happened to get them whilst they where unarmed lol. This situation is starting to stink, personally I am against violence, but maybe that is the only thing these extremists understand. It is starting to become clear to me that Diplomacy is not going to work

[Quiet One 15]

I agree that it would make no sense for the marines to say what they are saying, because even if they were in Iran waters, saying all that they are saying may cause them to be court martialed. On the other side, I don't think they are saying what they are saying because they are sure that anyways nobody in Uk would believe them. They are doing propaganda in favor of Iran position that might be believed in the rest of the world.

Shane, I think your government is suspiciously too open to negotiate.

All the situation stinks and hidden manoeuvres from both sides distort all this so much that I can't really say what exactly happened. I assume my total ignorance.

[Shane2 0]

It is weird, but I personally believe the government when they say they where in Iraqi waters. The Iranians are just hitting out because they realise the international community doesn't like them (UN sanctions)

[dribbler 6]

Not to mention the fact they just happened to get them whilst they where unarmed lol. This situation is starting to stink, personally I am against violence, but maybe that is the only thing these extremists understand. It is starting to become clear to me that Diplomacy is not going to work

I share your frustration Shane but it is my belief that the only way Britain can come out of this situation looking like the fairer country is to continue down the diplomatic route. My heart says send the S.A.S in, my head says not to. It may take the Iranian's to slaughter our service people inorder for us to gain international sympathy though. That may sound ridiculous but it would put an end to our dilema and would also give us, along with the U.N and the wider community at large to impose any sanction we see fit with full justification.

It's too easy to get bogged down with the detail when something like this happens. We now need to focus on protecting our long term interest at large. The British government will have considered a scenario where our people get killed and i would guess that not all of them would see it as a disaster.

I know i will get an inevitable back lash but i'm just being honest and practical.

[Shane2 0]

I share your frustration Shane but it is my belief that the only way Britain can come out of this situation looking like the fairer country is to continue down the diplomatic route. My heart says send the S.A.S in, my head says not to. It may take the Iranian's to slaughter our service people inorder for us to gain international sympathy though. That may sound ridiculous but it would put an end to our dilema and would also give us, along with the U.N and the wider community at large to impose any sanction we see fit with full justification.

It's too easy to get bogged down with the detail when something like this happens. We now need to focus on protecting our long term interest at large. The British government will have considered a scenario where our people get killed and i would guess that not all of them would see it as a disaster.

I know i will get an inevitable back lash but i'm just being honest and practical.

I don't disagree with you, I just get the feeling that diplomacy will not work. If it can be solved by Diplomacy I am all for it, I just get the feeling its somewhat of a lost cause.

[dribbler 6]

I don't disagree with you, I just get the feeling that diplomacy will not work. If it can be solved by Diplomacy I am all for it, I just get the feeling its somewhat of a lost cause.

I agree to some extent but diplomacy can be ongoing whereas the decision to use force is final. Not only that, what would be our objective in using force? Surely our service men and woman would be terminated in that situation and the world would just see Britain pushing its way around the Middle East once again. For each day that goes by, rather than us looking weaker i believe it strengthens our demonstration of diplomacy to the wider world.

Again this may sound callous but at the moment, politically this is a far better way to sacrifice the lives of fifteen British personnel than to just have them shot to pieces out in the field somewhere in Afghanistan or Iraq, in my view.

[Shane2 0]

Well I suppose as usual, time is the only real way of knowing, this dispute is not gonna end quickly thats for sure