I Changed The Title For The Mentally Handicapped...

[monza gorilla 1]

My apologies. Scots it is, then.

[devilsinskirtsisback 0]

My apologies. Scots it is, then.

No need for apologies, I don't feel that strongly about it!!!

[Kael 0]

Really? In South Africa they have found a way to remove 10,000 years of cultural heritage and start with a completely blank slate with every single piece of conditioning and culturally caused genetics on either side removed?

Given that Mike was referring to the possibility of differing races having differing attributes, and that those attributes would have been formed over the millenia by and because of their culture and associated factors affecting that culture - the only way to be 100% sure that all races attributes are precisely equal would be to remove that history from their make up. Which is impossible.

"conditioning and culturally caused genetics" What is this? To base one's reasoning on theories, might as well have this conversation with an ape. From listening to you, I sense you're white. I know for a fact that the white man loves to think himself superior and he now tries to hide in 'diplomatic rationale'. In the past he was just blatently stupid and crude. The only thing to have evolved is his jargon ... to tell you that he's more superior

[Kael 0]

I re-iterate Kaels's point.... read it carefully and you might understand what he's trying to say... "Giving every race the same environment, circumstances, privileges - we're all equal!" It's not about cultural attributes (a child born into this world today does'nt have any genetic cultural heritage make-up), we're not talking about possibilities...it's about living at the present moment.....it's about given a chance on equal footing, realising that just a tad more of melanin does'nt make that person stupid dumber or slighly different... we are all the same. Kael, like me, are seeing this!

Don't try cover or use Mike's points to your advantage, I know what you are from previous post.

Hi Brad, do you think I can quit talking to this dude? I'm sure you come across racists on a daily basis. I'm sure you work with alot as well. Tough world, hey?!

[monza gorilla 1]

"conditioning and culturally caused genetics" What is this? To base one's reasoning on theories, might as well have this conversation with an ape. From listening to you, I sense you're white. I know for a fact that the white man loves to think himself superior and he now tries to hide in 'diplomatic rationale'. In the past he was just blatently stupid and crude. The only thing to have evolved is his jargon ... to tell you that he's more superior

Oh. The irony.

[Max Mosley 2]

"conditioning and culturally caused genetics" What is this? To base one's reasoning on theories, might as well have this conversation with an ape. From listening to you, I sense you're white. I know for a fact that the white man loves to think himself superior and he now tries to hide in 'diplomatic rationale'. In the past he was just blatently stupid and crude. The only thing to have evolved is his jargon ... to tell you that he's more superior

I find it annoying that you say this. If anyone said "black people used to be stupid and crude" it would be unacceptable, but I think there is just as much justification to say it. Also it is perfectly possible that there are genetic differences between the races that go beyond skin tone. It just isn't PC to say it.

[Kael 0]

I guess if the cap fits ...

[Kael 0]

I find it annoying that you say this. If anyone said "black people used to be stupid and crude" it would be unacceptable, but I think there is just as much justification to say it. Also it is perfectly possible that there are genetic differences between the races that go beyond skin tone. It just isn't PC to say it.

I see ...another white man / woman ...

[ykickamoocow 0]

I find it annoying that you say this. If anyone said "black people used to be stupid and crude" it would be unacceptable, but I think there is just as much justification to say it. Also it is perfectly possible that there are genetic differences between the races that go beyond skin tone. It just isn't PC to say it.

There are differences other than skin tone but they are very minor. For instance African Americans are more susceptible to getting Diabetes than people with a more Anglo Saxon bloodline. In terms of mental ability all the races are the same.

[Kael 0]

There are differences other than skin tone but they are very minor. For instance African Americans are more susceptible to getting Diabetes than people with a more Anglo Saxon bloodline. In terms of mental ability all the races are the same.

Unfortunately, the white man will have a hard time accepting this uncomfortable, inconvenient truth.

[monza gorilla 1]

Unfortunately, the white man will have a hard time accepting this uncomfortable, inconvenient truth.

Uncomfortable? Inconvenient? Clarify please.

[Max Mosley 2]

I see ...another white man / woman ...

Yep. That's enough to discredit my points.

There are differences other than skin tone but they are very minor. For instance African Americans are more susceptible to getting Diabetes than people with a more Anglo Saxon bloodline. In terms of mental ability all the races are the same.

Good points but the mental ability equality actually hasn't been proven yet one way or the other. Atm imho it's a PC assumption, which might or might not be true. A nobel prize winning scientist who said it wasn't true over the weekend was forced to apologise this week, and it annoys me when PC-ness restricts freedom of thought and speech.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I find it annoying that you say this. If anyone said "black people used to be stupid and crude" it would be unacceptable, but I think there is just as much justification to say it. Also it is perfectly possible that there are genetic differences between the races that go beyond skin tone. It just isn't PC to say it.

like perhaps, a broader nose of a darker skinned person Mr Murray Walker? which accounts to what... a 0.04 % difference....which means nothing in scientific terms? You should know. That's why bloodtype of a "black" skinned person might suit you more than another "white" person. Why do you think scientist are too scared to use the term race nowadays, because the differences is so minute.... it all boils down to perception. and it is this wrong perception that Kael is mentioning, I mean how else could they jump on a ship, hopelessly outnumbered, sail to Africa and steal the poor peacefull folk from the homelands and treat them as slaves.

But thats irrelevant. What I'm simply implying is that today in modern South Africa, the white man still thinks himself superior. They still have that perception, and apartheid has made it worse. But given equal opportunities.... they are proven wrong.

I feel I'm threading very deep waters here...

[Max Mosley 2]

I don't know about South Africa, but Kael says that my views are nonsense simply because I'm white (nothing to do with South Africa). I find that reverse racism very annoying and offensive.

In Britain and the US, black people don't yet do as well as white people. Black people don't have the same chances in life in Britain and the US, so we simply can't say that the innate ability of each race is the same. There has never been a situation where both races have had equal chances. And that is a disgrace that I agree is "the white man's" fault.

[monza gorilla 1]

But thats irrelevant. What I'm simply implying is that today in modern South Africa, the white man still thinks himself superior. They still have that perception, and apartheid has made it worse. But given equal opportunities.... they are proven wrong.

I feel I'm threading very deep waters here...

I now see what you're driving at. It wasn't at all clear to me in the earlier posts. But I still maintain that you, Kael and Devils were talking about 2 different things and were talking at cross purposes.

As for deep waters, well that's what boats were invented for. I don't think you'll be sinking anytime soon Brad.

[monza gorilla 1]

I find that reverse racism very annoying and offensive.

I find it amusing. Tells me a lot.

[monza gorilla 1]

Why am I in this thread? I have places to be.

[ykickamoocow 0]

I do know abit about current day race problems for South Africa and i am aware of several progammes your governments are running to try and improve the relations betwwen white and black people. When you look at South Africa's history they really have come along way in a very short time in regards to race.

[devilsinskirtsisback 0]

Also it is perfectly possible that there are genetic differences between the races that go beyond skin tone.

Ignoring the ridiculous tone of Kael's latest posts and trying to maintain a sensible discussion - I would disagree with this point. It is a fact that there are genetic differences between the races. Perhaps Genetics is the wrong term, but the fact that it is possible to determine the race of a person from their skeleton indicates that their is a genetic difference which structures our bodies differently.

I make no assumptions of superiority based on that knowledge, but merely assert that we have formed either through different strands of "evolution" or that after we were made "equal", we subsequently evolved due to cultural differences in an alternative manner. Thus rendering us subsequently unequal - these structural differences are not there for no reason.

Mental ability has no bearing on the matter.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I don't know about South Africa, but Kael says that my views are nonsense simply because I'm white (nothing to do with South Africa). I find that reverse racism very annoying and offensive.

In Britain and the US, black people don't yet do as well as white people. Black people don't have the same chances in life in Britain and the US, so we simply can't say that the innate ability of each race is the same. There has never been a situation where both races have had equal chances. And that is a disgrace that I agree is "the white man's" fault.

it's sort of getting equal footing here, in a way... and the results are wondrous to see. I'm very proud of it.

[ykickamoocow 0]

The fact that white and black people can have children together proves that genetically we are not that different. Humans are only a couple of percent different from apes but no human can have a child with a ape (thankfully ).

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I do know abit about current day race problems for South Africa and i am aware of several progammes your governments are running to try and improve the relations betwwen white and black people. When you look at South Africa's history they really have come along way in a very short time in regards to race.

spot on

We still have an extremely difficult problem as that the effects of apartheid is difficult to shake off, parents are still teaching their kids "black and white"...

[Max Mosley 2]

Ignoring the ridiculous tone of Kael's latest posts and trying to maintain a sensible discussion - I would disagree with this point. It is a fact that there are genetic differences between the races. Perhaps Genetics is the wrong term, but the fact that it is possible to determine the race of a person from their skeleton indicates that their is a genetic difference which structures our bodies differently.

I make no assumptions of superiority based on that knowledge, but merely assert that we have formed either through different strands of "evolution" or that after we were made "equal", we subsequently evolved due to cultural differences in an alternative manner. Thus rendering us subsequently unequal - these structural differences are not there for no reason.

Mental ability has no bearing on the matter.

I think we more or less agree. I was deliberately vague, but in fact I agree with you: of course there are many genetic differences between people of different races. There are well known genetic differences between the Scots and the English, or the Scots and the old Vikings etc etc, just as there are many genetic differences between me and you, or me and Russ. Mental ability was brought up by someone, and there is no strong evidence that all races are exactly the same in that respect.

it's sort of getting equal footing here, in a way... and the results are wondrous to see. I'm very proud of it.

Great! I'm pleased to see how SA is developing into a country that will set an example for the rest of Africa in terms of economic and political leadership. Hopefully that will be a huge help to the rest of your continent. On a related matter, Mbeki does worry me though. His views on AIDS and Zimbabwe seem quite shocking to me.

[devilsinskirtsisback 0]

Humans are only a couple of percent different from apes but no human can have a child with a ape (thankfully ).

That doesn't stop some of us trying though.........

[BradSpeedMan 6]

On a related matter, Mbeki does worry me though. His views on AIDS and Zimbabwe seem quite shocking to me.

true.... the minister of health Manto is delibrately use by Mbeki as his mouthpiece on the HIV viewpoint, that's why she looks so stupid when she's intelligently challenged. and Zimbabwe, I don't know why Mbeki is protecting Mugabe this much with his silent policy, but it has something to do with Zimbabwe assisting us in the apartheid days, which is really sad.

Mbeki is an extremely brilliant "external" brand leader for the world, not for the inhabitants of his country.