4 Pit Stops Too Many?

[jackgarrett 0]

4 pit stops in a F1 too many?

[Jean-Pierre 0]

IMO yes. Too much strategy, not enough racing. The last race was ridiculous: there were so many pit stops it was difficult to follow the race.

There will be tougher tires from Montreal on.

[Quiet One 15]

Yes, but.

Barcelona 2011:

Winner: Sebastian Vettel. 4 Pistops.

2nd: Lewis Hamilton. 4 pitstops

3rd: Jenson Button. 3 pitstops

4th and 5th were Webber and Alonso, respectively, both with 4 pitstops. And Vettel lapped everybody from Alonso down, Nando included.

Now...how come I don't recall such a mass hysteria back then?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Yes, but.

Barcelona 2011:

Winner: Sebastian Vettel. 4 Pistops.

2nd: Lewis Hamilton. 4 pitstops

3rd: Jenson Button. 3 pitstops

4th and 5th were Webber and Alonso, respectively, both with 4 pitstops. And Vettel lapped everybody from Alonso down, Nando included.

Now...how come I don't recall such a mass hysteria back then?

It was strategy based? Tyres were'nt really THE concern?

[Quiet One 15]

No and yes. No, it wasn't just strategy related without tires having any effect. If such case, then it would have been a case of 4 stoppers doing so to win over 3 stoppers. A bold strategy (if there is no tire concern) and would have not been so widespread throughout the field.

And yes, tires where really not THE concern but that's precisely my point: tires designed to be rubbish has happened for the past 3 years, drivers not pushing 100% (ok, let's make it 9' or 8'% as drivers NEVER pushed 100% in their lives) has been happening for 3 years. This year has gotten worse in a couple of races, but only if you completely forgot about the first 7 races of last year.

Tires should be made sturdier, no doubt about that, but it is not the end of the world and spectacle has not been compromised.

It CAN be compromised from now on, though, as James Allen explained. The sudden change in tires means that PROBABLY Ferrari, Lotus and Force India will be affected as their car was designed to take advantage of these tires and now they won't have them no more. RBR, McLaren and Mercedes will benefit.

Basically, they will get a prize for designing the cars wrongly for this year's challenges.

And nobody will STILL be able to race 100%.

Now you tell me how that is good for F1, fairness and the spectacle?

[Argento Reloaded 1]

If you like flat out race all the way, go and watch Drag races!!! Imposible to race during almost 2 hours without strategy!!! 4 pit stops too much? Noop.

I think the problem is "4 pit stops + nursing the tyres all the race to avoid 6 or 7 pit stops!!!!!"

[Quiet One 15]

If you like flat out race all the way, go and watch Drag races!!! Imposible to race during almost 2 hours without strategy!!! 4 pit stops too much? Noop.

I think the problem is "4 pit stops + nursing the tyres all the race to avoid 6 or 7 pit stops!!!!!"

THIS!!!

And welcome back!

[pabloh20 1]

No and yes. No, it wasn't just strategy related without tires having any effect. If such case, then it would have been a case of 4 stoppers doing so to win over 3 stoppers. A bold strategy (if there is no tire concern) and would have not been so widespread throughout the field.

And yes, tires where really not THE concern but that's precisely my point: tires designed to be rubbish has happened for the past 3 years, drivers not pushing 100% (ok, let's make it 9' or 8'% as drivers NEVER pushed 100% in their lives) has been happening for 3 years. This year has gotten worse in a couple of races, but only if you completely forgot about the first 7 races of last year.

Tires should be made sturdier, no doubt about that, but it is not the end of the world and spectacle has not been compromised.

It CAN be compromised from now on, though, as James Allen explained. The sudden change in tires means that PROBABLY Ferrari, Lotus and Force India will be affected as their car was designed to take advantage of these tires and now they won't have them no more. RBR, McLaren and Mercedes will benefit.

Basically, they will get a prize for designing the cars wrongly for this year's challenges.

And nobody will STILL be able to race 100%.

Now you tell me how that is good for F1, fairness and the spectacle?

I sort of agree, except I do believe drivers have driven at 100% in the past few years for periods of the race, at least. I mean there's got to be a reason why Massa is staying on the race track now, right??

Edit: Can't type

[pabloh20 1]

If you like flat out race all the way, go and watch Drag races!!! Imposible to race during almost 2 hours without strategy!!! 4 pit stops too much? Noop.

I think the problem is "4 pit stops + nursing the tyres all the race to avoid 6 or 7 pit stops!!!!!"

Yes, I agree, this exactly.

[Quiet One 15]

I sort of agree, except I do believe drivers have driven at 100% in the past few years for periods of the race, at least. I mean there's got to be a reason why Massa is staying on the race track now, right??

Edit: Can't type

Pffft...Massa was hit in the head again by Luca di Montezemolo with a monkeywrench, so now he's fixed.

For ye of little faith, first was James Allen, and now Gary Anderson:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22543884

I think these guys are not British. Just like Paul, but in his case that's just because he's a scouser.

Anyways, you have all been used by the custard lobby into believing that these tires were ruining the spectacle so they could bring theirs.

[pabloh20 1]

Pffft...Massa was hit in the head again by Luca di Montezemolo with a monkeywrench, so now he's fixed.

For ye of little faith, first was James Allen, and now Gary Anderson:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22543884

I think these guys are not British. Just like Paul, but in his case that's just because he's a scouser.

Anyways, you have all been used by the custard lobby into believing that these tires were ruining the spectacle so they could bring theirs.

I am not in the custard lobby, I am in the naked women on tyres lobby.

[HandyNZL 1]

Wouldn't a simpler solution be to lessen the amount of laps?

Then no one is handicapped for designing a car to be mechaincally soft, and those that haven't done this, increase their survivability rate?

Eliminate 10 laps and you effectively eliminate the "soft" tyre issue.

Also, eliminate the rule that the top ten have to start on the tyres they ran in qualifying...OR...make everyone do it. Then everyone is on equal footing. It is mainly this rule that is creating the preservation racing and/or not running in Q3, not the actual tyres themselves.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Anyways, you have all been used by the custard lobby into believing that these tires were ruining the spectacle so they could bring theirs.

Hang on a minute as chief of the custard lobby I resemble that remark! .... Anyway Paul can't be a member, it distinctly says on the application form:

Do you have a criminal record? (I've seen his music collection, it's beyond criminal )

And Paul couldn't answer "no" to that anyway, hub-cap theft carries a minimum 25 year term where he comes from

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Eliminate 10 laps and you effectively eliminate the "soft" tyre issue.

Ah but then the races are shorter, sponsors get teed off, TV companies have less time for advertising.... etc.

Agree re qually though never quite understood the point of that rule. esp now with tyres that are mush.

[pabloh20 1]

Hang on a minute as chief of the custard lobby I resemble that remark! .... Anyway Paul can't be a member, it distinctly says on the application form:

Do you have a criminal record? (I've seen his music collection, it's beyond criminal )

And Paul couldn't answer "no" to that anyway, hub-cap theft carries a minimum 25 year term where he comes from

Exsqueeze me?? My music taste is awesome. Any brotherhood of man cds found in my collection are the wife's

Hub caps?? You are so last century. Are you ever going to sell your Austin Allegro? Or is the hub cap fetish too strong to break?

[jackgarrett 0]

i dont think 4 is too many, Id say too many is when teams retire cars because they ran out of tyers in a race.

[jackgarrett 0]

I mean come on guys, Last year Pirelli said 12 months ago the talk about tyers will end once the teams sort out the tyers and they were right. Its the same thing happerening again. Once the teams understand the tyers, the focus on tyers will stop. Some teams just ned to suck it up and deal with what they are given, its the same for every team.

[Quiet One 15]

Indeed. I have just read another interesting info: Alonso's race time this year was effectively slower than last year's Maldonado win. By how much? 7s!!! That's how "slow" the cars this year were. And Alonso slowed down to a crawl the last metres of the race making his lap more than 3 seconds slower than Raikkonen so you can safely assume that the difference was closer to 4 seconds or less.

So, the race wasn't slower than any of the races in the past 3 years, the pitstops weren't either outrageous...F1 is F1 as it has always been.

Too late, though, RBR got what they wanted, scared everybody with the apocalypse. Yesterday Ferrari and Lotus slammed the changes in the tires. And this is a mistake from them because that was too little too late. I don't think Paul Hembery can now go back and say "ok, we changed our opinion again and now we will stick with these tires".

Other than that, I agree with Craig about the Q3 tires. Format should have changed for this year and tires should have been changed for next year.

[pabloh20 1]

Indeed. I have just read another interesting info: Alonso's race time this year was effectively slower than last year's Maldonado win. By how much? 7s!!! That's how "slow" the cars this year were. And Alonso slowed down to a crawl the last metres of the race making his lap more than 3 seconds slower than Raikkonen so you can safely assume that the difference was closer to 4 seconds or less.

So, the race wasn't slower than any of the races in the past 3 years, the pitstops weren't either outrageous...F1 is F1 as it has always been.

Too late, though, RBR got what they wanted, scared everybody with the apocalypse. Yesterday Ferrari and Lotus slammed the changes in the tires. And this is a mistake from them because that was too little too late. I don't think Paul Hembery can now go back and say "ok, we changed our opinion again and now we will stick with these tires".

Other than that, I agree with Craig about the Q3 tires. Format should have changed for this year and tires should have been changed for next year.

Well yes..............and no. I mean, I can't remember how much Maldanado nursed the car last year, wasn't he easily in front? How much did he slow on his last lap, as well? He might have slowed down 4s, I just can't remember

However, there have been no major rule changes between this year and last, which normally means an increase in pace in F1. Even if you used a conservative estimate, I don't know, say 1/4s over 1 lap in outright pace, you would say that should equate to approx 15s quicker than last year in the Spanish grand prix over the race distance. Yet, it was somewhere between 4s and 7s slower.

Or another way of looking at it is that the winning time this year would have only got 4th last year. I would guess that normally only happens after rule changes to slow them down.

[Quiet One 15]

Well yes..............and no. I mean, I can't remember how much Maldanado nursed the car last year, wasn't he easily in front? How much did he slow on his last lap, as well? He might have slowed down 4s, I just can't remember

However, there have been no major rule changes between this year and last, which normally means an increase in pace in F1. Even if you used a conservative estimate, I don't know, say 1/4s over 1 lap in outright pace, you would say that should equate to approx 15s quicker than last year in the Spanish grand prix over the race distance. Yet, it was somewhere between 4s and 7s slower.

Or another way of looking at it is that the winning time this year would have only got 4th last year. I would guess that normally only happens after rule changes to slow them down.

Even if I accepted your figures the basic argument still will stand. It is not big deal. Room for improvement? Lots. Critical enough to change the rules? Not a chance.

[pabloh20 1]

Even if I accepted your figures the basic argument still will stand. It is not big deal. Room for improvement? Lots. Critical enough to change the rules? Not a chance.

What do you mean even if you accepted my figures?? Anyone would think I just made that figure up off the top of my head

No, I agree, it's not enough for a rule change of sorts, but then I don't really know why they changed the tyres that much from last year, to be honest.

[HandyNZL 1]

What do you mean even if you accepted my figures?? Anyone would think I just made that figure up off the top of my head

No, I agree, it's not enough for a rule change of sorts, but then I don't really know why they changed the tyres that much from last year, to be honest.

Well to answer this I think you must consider the geo-political landscape and the quasi-economical divestments currently in play in the realm of Formula Ooon

Firstly, RBR is on a roll. A roll not too unlike that of Ferrari in 2000-2005. And what happened through that period for non-Ferrari/Schumacher fans? Well, we got bored. Bored, bored, bored. We got sick of the procession, sick of knowing the winner...this wasn't motorsport was it?

Now RBR is scaryingly close to repeating the Ferrari days. So what do you do if you are Bernie and CVC can see that viewers will again switch off if the winner is a fait a complait? Well, you do something that might slow them down, or at least give others a better shot at usurping them.

The RBR has for a long time not been the quickest in a straight line. But they win races, basically by being the fastest over a lap (or sixty). So the only other place on a track after the straights are the windy bits, the corners. And the RBR flies through these. How does it do that? Superior downforce and suspension setup.

So, Bernie cooks up a plan...can't be losing billions you see in his last few years on the planet. Make the tyres just a little bit different, so that when all this extra downforce is applied, they overheat the tyres...just enough to make RBR throttle off a touch.

And in so doing, because the tyres switch on earlier (get to operating temp) then the cars that didn't have as much downforce nor the mechanical suspension setups can now, too, get the tyres to work, and thus, the car is competitive.

Or at least, that could be a theory

[Angellica 0]

I think the tyre situation is ridiculous, we watch F1 to see them racing surely, not to watch them going as slowly as they can to save their tyres. The clue is baked right into it, it's called a race!

Yes things needed shaking up so it wasn't all a procession but not like this, there's a line and then there's going so far beyond it you don't even know where the line is. If they hadn't agreed to change the tyres I dread to think how many pitstops they'd need in Canada.

[Quiet One 15]

I think the tyre situation is ridiculous, we watch F1 to see them racing surely, not to watch them going as slowly as they can to save their tyres. The clue is baked right into it, it's called a race!

Yes things needed shaking up so it wasn't all a procession but not like this, there's a line and then there's going so far beyond it you don't even know where the line is. If they hadn't agreed to change the tyres I dread to think how many pitstops they'd need in Canada.

Problem is, they hadn't agreed to anything. Pirelli unilaterally announced changes in the tires which, btw, seems to be in breach of current FIA regulations (there's an article somewhere about that)

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Thanks for the welcome Andrés!!