129 replies to this topic

[Rainmaster]

At least Ferrari are being honest about the penalty I actually didn't expect that.

[LabradoRacer]

Clever of Ferrari to change Massa's gearbox to make Alonso start on clean side. Will be a delicious irony if Alonso's gearbox blows up.

[BradSpeedMan]

Rainmaster, on 18 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

At least Ferrari are being honest about the penalty I actually didn't expect that.

I liked your first response better

Well, it looks like they accept the consequences this might bring....

[LabradoRacer]

But yes, props to Ferrari for being frank about it.

[freaky2]

Well.. dunno. It's still just as tasteless, I wanted to believe that they had a reason. Now if something bad happens to Alonso it will be considered "poetic justice" or something :S

Being frank about cheating the rules is just having a lot of nerve. Hello, we are Ferrari and what the other teams do in secret we do for all the world to see and don't even get a reprimand.

[LabradoRacer]

Dreadful race for Schumi. I sincerely hope it's because of the car.

[LabradoRacer]

Awesome overtake by Kimi. Please nail Alonso now.

[LabradoRacer]

Webber suffers another KERS failure. Alonso benefits.

[freaky2]

Massa and Hamilton are DoD so far.

[LabradoRacer]

Hamilton, wow. Those 7 points will make a huge difference.

[LabradoRacer]

Button vs Kimi, wow.

[freaky2]

Hammy is still DoD and probably Massa too. Button and Kimi provided some excitement, so that was good ^^

[LabradoRacer]

Incredible drive by Hamilton. Thoroughly deserves a win. A sad reminder that this WDC was snatched from him by Macca.

So now Seb leads Alonso by 13 points. If Seb's car holds up in Brazil, he should come through.

Mercedes....forget it.

Enjoyable race...and a horse, a bull & a black man on the podium wearing cowboy hats..."Django Unchained".

[Massa]

Finished just in time to see...

...that it was over.

I love the creative team orders from Ferrari.  Massa wasn't going to be allowed to finish ahead of Alonso anyway, and it's just more efficient to have him behind Alonso from the start and have Alonso not hindered by the dirty side.  I see nothing wrong with any team in the championship situation doing that.

I might try to catch the race on Tuesday.  Sounds like it was pretty good.  Just looking at the results sheet, I'd have to figure the Ferrari's qualifying issues are deceptive, and it's actually the third best car which can be the second best car when McLaren becomes the twelfth best team...

[freaky2]

Well, I'm still angry at Ferrari but it worked out really well and Massa had a great race... he might have lost just about as many places at the start anyway. And no question - Alonso benefitted enormously. So, well done Ferrari? Ugh XD

[Ikyrotz]

Sebastian and Lewis were quite even, made a very entertaining race to follow them battle it out. There was no way (bar DNF) that Alonso could've been higher than third, so in that sense a good drive by him too, but there certainly is something wrong with Ferrari since Alonso was clearly slower than Massa for the entire race. Massa's Ferrari appeared to be the fastest car on track, so I wonder what it is that they are doing wrong with Alonso's car (I assume they are mainly bringing all the updates to Alonso's car).

Button also drove a great race, though helped quite a bit by the possibility to choose primes for the long first stint and then charge with new options in the end. Kimi provided us with some nice overtakes and battles, but Lotus appeared to be too slow in the end, as indicated by the practice sessions.

[Rainmaster]

The impact of the dirty side of the grid was a bit overstated, but it was the only decision Ferrari could have made. As usual, the problem lies more with the rules, because it just doesn't sit right to be able to be that creative. This is more than just a team order and that's the issue, imo (and I am not trying to make it a massive controversy before somebody comes with that reply, just saying it's not a sporting move and could be easily avoided).

Like Ikyrotz says, Kimi was impressive but ultimately still doesn't have anything like the pace of the Ferrari, like I thought before the start of the race (Abu Dhabi was a win by circumstance rather than a win by development for Lotus, and they're generally slower than Ferrari). Massa was very impressive and it's been obvious the whole weekend that he has a better car than Alonso. It's funny that Ferrari are probably doing the normal thing by giving Alonso the updates, but they're actually hurting Alonso's chances because they still haven't got any correlation between wind tunnel and track.

All in all, I'm glad to see pre-race predictions about overtaking were wrong (probably because Pirelli were so conservative, in fact) and that F1 put on a good show with the three best drivers sharing the podium. Just a shame that in the end, this race was decided by Vettel catching a backmarker (NK aka "the cucumber") at the worst point of the track, robbing us of seeing more of the cat and mouse battle, and some more good defensive driving of Vettel. I'm not saying Hamilton wouldn't have got past without that, but he was doing a solid job and it'd would've been nice to see more of the battle.

[BradSpeedMan]

JHS18, on 18 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yep. Since Monza they've been using 2011 spec which were fine, but apparently they've had to change back because they had too much mileage on them. So will be using them here, and in one week at Brazil.

These alternator issues are going to provide both RB and ME sleepless nights going to Brazil. I would actually bet on Alonso for the title at the mo....

[freaky2]

Brad scaring the jinx away...

As long as the issues keep to Webber's car you're in the clear ;·)

[Massa]

I saw the Pirelli hats.

That alone has made me hope this race gets canceled for 2013.  So lame.

[AleHop]

Changing Massa's gearbox was the right decision no matter what had been the outcome of the race. Sadly not as tasteless as giving Vettel Webber's front wing.

I bet Vettel likes much more overtaking the ricciardos and vergnes of the grid but life is tough. He caught some backmarkers in the DRS zone that helped him gain a few tenths. Should Hamilton complain about that and cry on the radio?

He's got the absolutely best car for the last third of the championship but nothing feels as good as complaining about everything. I'm talking about fans and journalists, I understand Vettel complaints in the heat of the moment.

Hamilton is an amazing racing driver, he's proved today once again. Vettel was perfect today but Hamilton was pure magic. He turned a quite dull race into a GP to remember. Absolutely brilliant.

The race had a few good moments but I expect a much better GP next year. The tires were too hard for the track and the weather colder than expected didn't help either. Very difficult to make a pass on a such circumstances, it brought a few mistakes and some fun but that's not what I want.

Ferrari are dreaming with alternators. It tells you everything about their situation in the championship.

[JHS18]

Well I'm glad I was completely wrong.

Didn't think the race would be that good, and thought the title would be decided.

Great race. That proves why leaders being close lap after lap is just exciting as seeing as loads of overtaking. It was so tense. Fascinating seeing where Vettel and Hamilton were stronger compared to each other, and trying to work out who would get the worst of the traffic.

Brilliant to see such a big crowd too. As Eric has already said, next year will be telling to see how many people return. But if that race doesn't convince them to come back, nothing will.

But after going to so many new races recently where there's only one man and his dog there, a refreshing change to see it so busy. The way it should always be.

All set up nicely for Brazil. Still think it is Vettel's, but if there's rain or reliability problems for Red Bull...well...it'll keep me exciting over this week thinking about it anyway! This race was tense. Next Sunday is going to be incredible.

Only right in this amazing season that the championship goes down to the wire.

[Rainmaster]

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Changing Massa's gearbox was the right decision no matter what had been the outcome of the race. Sadly not as tasteless as giving Vettel Webber's front wing.

I bet Vettel likes much more overtaking the ricciardos and vergnes of the grid but life is tough. He caught some backmarkers in the DRS zone that helped him gain a few tenths. Should Hamilton complain about that and cry on the radio?

He's got the absolutely best car for the last third of the championship but nothing feels as good as complaining about everything. I'm talking about fans and journalists, I understand Vettel complaints in the heat of the moment.

Hamilton is an amazing racing driver, he's proved today once again. Vettel was perfect today but Hamilton was pure magic. He turned a quite dull race into a GP to remember. Absolutely brilliant.

The race had a few good moments but I expect a much better GP next year. The tires were too hard for the track and the weather colder than expected didn't help either. Very difficult to make a pass on a such circumstances, it brought a few mistakes and some fun but that's not what I want.

Ferrari are dreaming with alternators. It tells you everything about their situation in the championship.

Why do we always need a comparison to Vettel when discussing Alonso, or a comparison to Red Bull when discussing Ferrari? What has Vettel's or Webber's or anybody else's front wing got to do with it?

All teams and drivers will have certain unfavourable traits and tactics, no doubt about it. But the fact one team did something "bad" or controversial doesn't limit discussion about other incidents. If the point of such comparison is to suggest that Red Bull's team orders are worse than or just as bad as Ferrari's, then I think that's a pretty untenable position considering the chances and results Webber has had. In that sense, I don't see why a Ferrari/Alonso fan would want to get into such comparisons considering what Ferrari (and I mean Ferrari - not Alonso) have done in recent years with Massa has without doubt been the most obvious recent use of team orders, even if you don't see team orders as an absolutely bad thing (like me).

Anyway, a matter of opinion but I think swapping a front wing is less of an insult to sporting spirit, and less of a slap in the face to the rules and to your driver, than deliberately breaking a gearbox seal to ensure your own driver gets a penalty (they didn't actually change the gearbox, afaik). The major difference here is that Webber kicked up more of a fuss. Massa's reaction "I think it is hard to find another driver like me on the grid" says it all.

That said, I still think Red Bull or Mclaren would do something similar if they thought of it and if they were in that situation. It's just that Red Bull and Mclaren would also generally allow their drivers to score decent results ahead of his team mate through the season, and not employ someone to serve absolutely as #2 (and re-employ him despite largely terrible results). There is a difference between the right decision from a points scoring POV (and it certainly was), and the right decision from a sporting POV (which it isn't). That's why we can accept the decision, understand it, but don't have to like it.

As for Vettel, you seem to say two contradictory things. You agree that his complaint about finding a backmarker in a tight, twisty section of the track and it leading to him losing the lead of the race is not unreasonable in the heat of the moment. How fair of you! But you also seem to suggest, by implication, that he was "crying" on the radio because Hamilton didn't in similar circumstances? I found it interesting that in this case, you're no longer happy to make comparisons to other drivers who also "cried" on the radio, like you made comparisons to other teams who used team orders; I think I see how that works. By the way, those two circumstances (Hamilton's and Vettel's) are not the same either. Being held up by a backmarker when you're behind, in a faster car, is clearly not as much of a disadvantage as being held up when you're in front having to drive defensively. The difference is Hamilton can always catch up again whereas once Vettel loses the DRS gap, he's screwed, which is exactly what happened.

But if do see Vettel's complaint as somewhat reasonable (if only in the heat of the battle), then I don't see your issue with his fans complaining about it. After all, it's hardly an unusual position to say that you don't want backmarkers to interfere with the lead of the race whoever is leading, isn't it? Let alone you're favourite driver - no doubt you would complain if a backmarker hurt Alonso's chances. So I don't see why a Vettel fan complaining is an issue. Actually, I haven't seen any of his fans or journalists complaining anyway. Christian Horner even said sometimes the backmarkers help us and today they haven't; so I'd be interested to hear those complaints. Just for clarity, in my previous post I was describing what happened, which is different from complaining. The only complaint I have made is as a fan of racing, about the battle being influenced by a backmarker. I'd say the same if it were Alonso, Raikkonen or Hamilton or anyone losing out in similar situations. We were robbed of seeing whether Vettel's defensive skills were as good as Alonso's were in Hockenheim, and worse still, not even necessarily because of NK's bad driving - it seemed he had nowhere to go (it's worse because there's nobody to blame!).

As for the championship, I don't know that Vettel has "absolutely" the best car for Brazil albeit he does have at least a very good fast one (Hamilton's seemed quite fast today and with nothing to lose he's a strong candidate for victory, rain or dry), but with Webber's fate today, a Vettel DNF isn't unimaginable. Ferrari's dreams may come true yet.

JHS18, on 19 November 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Well I'm glad I was completely wrong.

Didn't think the race would be that good, and thought the title would be decided.

Great race. That proves why leaders being close lap after lap is just exciting as seeing as loads of overtaking. It was so tense. Fascinating seeing where Vettel and Hamilton were stronger compared to each other, and trying to work out who would get the worst of the traffic.

Brilliant to see such a big crowd too. As Eric has already said, next year will be telling to see how many people return. But if that race doesn't convince them to come back, nothing will.

But after going to so many new races recently where there's only one man and his dog there, a refreshing change to see it so busy. The way it should always be.

All set up nicely for Brazil. Still think it is Vettel's, but if there's rain or reliability problems for Red Bull...well...it'll keep me exciting over this week thinking about it anyway! This race was tense. Next Sunday is going to be incredible.

Only right in this amazing season that the championship goes down to the wire.

Yep.

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Why do we always need a comparison to Vettel when discussing Alonso, or a comparison to Red Bull when discussing Ferrari? What has Vettel's or Webber's or anybody else's front wing got to do with it?

We need to put things into perspective. That's why. I sometimes wonder why anything involving Alonso is so controversial when you see pretty much everybody doing the same things and complaining about the same issues.

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

All teams and drivers will have certain unfavourable traits and tactics, no doubt about it. But the fact one team did something "bad" or controversial doesn't limit discussion about other incidents. If the point of such comparison is to suggest that Red Bull's team orders are worse than or just as bad as Ferrari's, then I think that's a pretty untenable position considering the chances and results Webber has had. In that sense, I don't see why a Ferrari/Alonso fan would want to get into such comparisons considering what Ferrari (and I mean Ferrari - not Alonso) have done in recent years with Massa has without doubt been the most obvious recent use of team orders, even if you don't see team orders as an absolutely bad thing (like me).

I'm absolutely conviced that Red Bull's team orders are as bad as or worse than Ferrari's. I don't think Ferrari have done anything horrible with Massa in the last three seasons, he's the #2 driver as much as Webber is the #2 in Red Bull. Webber have beaten Vettel a few times and have won some races this season but it doesn't mean he is in a better position than Massa at Ferrari. If Vettel win the title it could be because Webber won ahead of Alonso in Silverstone or Monaco, because Webber finished ahead of Alonso a few times and they would have loved to see Massa in a position to finish ahead of Vettel even if he had finished ahead of Alonso every now and then.

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Anyway, a matter of opinion but I think swapping a front wing is less of an insult to sporting spirit, and less of a slap in the face to the rules and to your driver, than deliberately breaking a gearbox seal to ensure your own driver gets a penalty (they didn't actually change the gearbox, afaik). The major difference here is that Webber kicked up more of a fuss. Massa's reaction "I think it is hard to find another driver like me on the grid" says it all.

They gave Webber's front wing to Vettel when the Aussie had showed he was as good as Vettel in 2010 and he was leading or at least in a extremely good position for the title. That makes a big difference and, in my opinion, a much more insulting decision towards Webber. In Massa's case he has no chance at the title and he's done an embarrasing season. I don't care about whatever Massa says and you shouldn't care about it either. It's hard to find another driver like him on the grid and it's hard to find a Ferrari driver underperforming like him in 50 years.

https://abulafiaf1.w...rning-to-massa/

[OT]
This is a good blog. Some posts before he discussed about Alonso and Schumacher's driving style. And there are a few surprises about oversteering/understeering set-up, preferences and style. Too bad that guy disappeared without notice.
[/OT]

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

That said, I still think Red Bull or Mclaren would do something similar if they thought of it and if they were in that situation. It's just that Red Bull and Mclaren would also generally allow their drivers to score decent results ahead of his team mate through the season, and not employ someone to serve absolutely as #2 (and re-employ him despite largely terrible results). There is a difference between the right decision from a points scoring POV (and it certainly was), and the right decision from a sporting POV (which it isn't). That's why we can accept the decision, understand it, but don't have to like it.

Massa is allowed to score decent results whenever he can get in the F2012 and do a better job than Alonso. At this point of the season Massa is in an absolutely #2 position because he's been unable to stay in the fight for the title. I think we agree on that point. There are a few thousand people working at the factories and the driver is working for a big corporation. I admit I can't understand Ferrari re-employing him, they tried to sign Webber but probably any other option was too risky or whatever.

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

As for Vettel, you seem to say two contradictory things. You agree that his complaint about finding a backmarker in a tight, twisty section of the track and it leading to him losing the lead of the race is not unreasonable in the heat of the moment. How fair of you! But you also seem to suggest, by implication, that he was "crying" on the radio because Hamilton didn't in similar circumstances? I found it interesting that in this case, you're no longer happy to make comparisons to other drivers who also "cried" on the radio, like you made comparisons to other teams who used team orders; I think I see how that works. By the way, those two circumstances (Hamilton's and Vettel's) are not the same either. Being held up by a backmarker when you're behind, in a faster car, is clearly not as much of a disadvantage as being held up when you're in front having to drive defensively. The difference is Hamilton can always catch up again whereas once Vettel loses the DRS gap, he's screwed, which is exactly what happened.

I don't really understand what you mean. I'm saying the backmarker didn't help Vettel that time and he got frustrated when Hamilton overtook him a few corners later but a lap or two earlier Vettel caught the backmarker in the DRS zone so he could use the DRS which didn't help Hamilton in his battle for the lead. I don't agree about Vettel being screwed once Hamilton got past him, he was able to fight for the lead again but it was probably too risky to make a move when he had a good result for the title and Hamilton was doing a great job. A few amazing laps.

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

But if do see Vettel's complaint as somewhat reasonable (if only in the heat of the battle), then I don't see your issue with his fans complaining about it. After all, it's hardly an unusual position to say that you don't want backmarkers to interfere with the lead of the race whoever is leading, isn't it? Let alone you're favourite driver - no doubt you would complain if a backmarker hurt Alonso's chances. So I don't see why a Vettel fan complaining is an issue. Actually, I haven't seen any of his fans or journalists complaining anyway. Christian Horner even said sometimes the backmarkers help us and today they haven't; so I'd be interested to hear those complaints. Just for clarity, in my previous post I was describing what happened, which is different from complaining. The only complaint I have made is as a fan of racing, about the battle being influenced by a backmarker. I'd say the same if it were Alonso, Raikkonen or Hamilton or anyone losing out in similar situations. We were robbed of seeing whether Vettel's defensive skills were as good as Alonso's were in Hockenheim, and worse still, not even necessarily because of NK's bad driving - it seemed he had nowhere to go (it's worse because there's nobody to blame!).

I don't mind about the fans complaining about it when they type what's going on while watching the race but I'm not so understanding if they complain when the race is over, it's even worse if they're journalists. I agree it isn't an ideal situation that a backmarcker interfere with the lead but we're always told drivers have to deal with traffic and some races or podiums are decided like this every season. Narain K. has had to explain what happened which was pretty obvious, he had nowhere to go. So journalists are in some way asking him for being in the wrong place at the wrong moment?

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

As for the championship, I don't know that Vettel has "absolutely" the best car for Brazil albeit he does have at least a very good fast one (Hamilton's seemed quite fast today and with nothing to lose he's a strong candidate for victory, rain or dry), but with Webber's fate today, a Vettel DNF isn't unimaginable. Ferrari's dreams may come true yet.

From Singapore onwards his RB8 has been the clearly dominant car, fast and ready for the win everywhere. There's no reason to think anything will change in Brazil. It's no bad thing having a dream when the dream may come true but it's not an ideal situation either.

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

From Singapore onwards his RB8 has been the clearly dominant car, fast and ready for the win everywhere. There's no reason to think anything will change in Brazil. It's no bad thing having a dream when the dream may come true but it's not an ideal situation either.

Correction......From Singapore Lewis actually had the best car, it just proves more fragile than the RB. It's Vettel's driving (and I know you're going to disagree...AGAIN) that made the difference also in inheriting a win from Hamilton.

As a matter of fact, Mclaren had the most dominant car for the whole of the season, in the hands of Vettel the season would have been wrapped up by Singapore probably.....

[HandyNZL]

Now I know why Alonso was ahead of Massa at the start...with the race at 8am Monday morning and having to do that whole work thing, I have had a whole day absent radio, newspaper and internet so as not to catch any hint of the race or result until settling in to watch the recorded race after work...

...and then it didn't damn well record!!!!!!

So I have watched the half hour highlight reel (F1 is pretty good in sprint form) instead...and I was wondering how Alonso was ahead of Massa at the start..

So, I'm thinking - was that underhanded, or good use of the rules?  Well, my mind goes back to the sixties when drivers in the championship lead or in the hunt would CHANGE CARS MID RACE so as to garner a better race result...

It's, in my opinion, good use of the rules by Ferrari.  Faced with poor qualifying relative to Massa of Alonso, and with the distinct possibility of losing many grid spots due to the slippery side of the race track at race start, AND, with the knowledge that reordering the grid by one spot would get Alonso onto the preferred side, then, feck it, you go for it.  Damn the public, and damn anyone else...this is YOUR teams decision, using a rule that you didn't make up...it's what they call....oh what's that word again?....something do do with IQ...oh bloody hell...starts with "s"....rhymes with "tart"...ahhh, yes...SMART.

Did they break the rules?

No.

Were they penalised for what they did?

Yes.  Massa lost five grid spots.

Did it result in Alonso staying in mathematical touch of winning the championship?

Yes.

Will it result in Alonso winning the championship?

Probably not.  There is a huge difference between being mathematically capable and actually doing the job.

By my quick count, Alonso needs to win the race, with Vettel fourth or worse to claim the championship.  How likely is that?

In fact, even if Vettel DNF's Alonso MUST get at least THIRD place to win the title.  To do this he must get ahead of one of Webber, Button, or Hamilton.  And not to mention a wild card like a Maldonaldo or a Perez.  So even if Vettel doesn't even start the race, Alonso will still have it tough.

Chur.

[HandyNZL]

BradSpeedMan, on 19 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Correction......From Singapore Lewis actually had the best car, it just proves more fragile than the RB. It's Vettel's driving (and I know you're going to disagree...AGAIN) that made the difference also in inheriting a win from Hamilton.

As a matter of fact, Mclaren had the most dominant car for the whole of the season, in the hands of Vettel the season would have been wrapped up by Singapore probably.....

Probably not - for you are excusing the fact that for every DNF Hamilton has had, Vettel in this theoretical equation would also have had.

[Rainmaster]

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

I'm absolutely conviced that Red Bull's team orders are as bad as or worse than Ferrari's. I don't think Ferrari have done anything horrible with Massa in the last three seasons, he's the #2 driver as much as Webber is the #2 in Red Bull. Webber have beaten Vettel a few times and have won some races this season but it doesn't mean he is in a better position than Massa at Ferrari.

All I can say is the evidence doesn't support this. Yes - there are examples of RB manipulating their drivers, but not to the extent Ferrari have (both in races and now before races), and yes they certainly seem to prefer Vettel winning. Nevertheless, if we look at facts, Webber was supported enough in his 2010 title bid that he was still second in the points, ahead of Vettel, at the final race. Not bad for a number two driver. If Red Bull were favouring Vettel so much, I somehow doubt they would have allowed that to be the case. Truth is, Webber lost his championship by spinning out in the Korean GP of his own accord, and not performing under pressure in Abu Dhabi qualifying where Vettel did. Massa would never have been good enough to fight for the 2010 title with Alonso in the other car, but it doesn't mean every time Ferrari acted against him that season and since then, can be dismissed because "Alonso would have beat him overall anyway". On that logic, we might as well just crown Alonso champion every year, since we all agree he's the best driver. It's still team orders, whether you agree on the justification or not.

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

If Vettel win the title it could be because Webber won ahead of Alonso in Silverstone or Monaco, because Webber finished ahead of Alonso a few times and they would have loved to see Massa in a position to finish ahead of Vettel even if he had finished ahead of Alonso every now and then.

Nah, you can't run a team like that (and Ferrari don't run their team like that or they'd fire Massa). You cannot say one week "move over, kid, the other guy is coming through" and next week complain when the guy you asked to move over underperforms and say "why aren't you indirectly helping your team mate again by beating his title rival when the car is good enough"! It's a simplification: the point is you cannot so easily separate the performance of your driver from the way you treat your driver. Massa is treated as an absolute number two not fit to clean Alonso's shoes, and so ultimately he drives that way and Ferrari have no qualms about continuing to employ him; they know the deal. You cannot separate those three things, that 1) Massa is the worst performing Ferrari driver in 50 years, 2) Ferrari treat Massa as they do, and 3) Ferrari hired Massa again. Three inseparable concepts there that all go together.  

Webber is not treated as an absolute number two, in his case the preference to Vettel is much more subtle than Ferrari's drivers (doesn't take much), and it's even subtler still (and lately becoming extremely mixed due to Hamilton being p**sed off) at Mclaren. Funnily enough you will notice these gradations of subtlety of team favouritism appear (at least to me) directly proportional to how the teams' two drivers actually compare to each other performance wise (Button being much closer to Hammy's talent than Massa is to Alonso's, and the gap between Webber and Vettel in the middle). As I said above, you could make that a justification for Ferrari treating Massa like dirt, personally I think it's a good argument for letting them race considering that Alonso will win 9/10ths of the time anyway. I digress..

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

They gave Webber's front wing to Vettel when the Aussie had showed he was as good as Vettel in 2010 and he was leading or at least in a extremely good position for the title. That makes a big difference and, in my opinion, a much more insulting decision towards Webber. In Massa's case he has no chance at the title and he's done an embarrasing season. I don't care about whatever Massa says and you shouldn't care about it either. It's hard to find another driver like him on the grid and it's hard to find a Ferrari driver underperforming like him in 50 years.

https://abulafiaf1.w...rning-to-massa/

[OT]
This is a good blog. Some posts before he discussed about Alonso and Schumacher's driving style. And there are a few surprises about oversteering/understeering set-up, preferences and style. Too bad that guy disappeared without notice.
[/OT]

I think we need some of that perspective stuff here. Vettel was 12 points ahead in the championship during 'wing-gate'; the wing seemed to make barely any difference to laptime (Webber's estimate: 1 tenth); Webber won the race with the old wing anyway. He's always been a driver who performed badly under pressure and blew hot and cold (like Massa) but tended to not take being kicked lying down and perform better in that situation (unlike Massa).

I agree the wing decision may well have been more insulting to Webber than the gearbox to Massa (based on their respective comments), although again I think it's more the case that Massa is a doormat and used to this whereas Webber wouldn't put up with it. I'm talking more from a sporting POV not a team one, like I said before and contrary to what this post might suggest, I don't really have too much of an issue with team orders (my main issue is when people deny their existence, say every team is completely equal with them, or simply deny their consequences on drivers by reducing them to robots). This [gearbox penalty] was worse than the wing change because it 1) exploited a loophole so blatantly for the advantage of a driver, and 2) affected other drivers outside of the team. Worth saying again, no real issue with Ferrari here, more an issue with the rules/FIA.

I don't care what Massa says, unless it happens to support my argument But you should care because Massa is occasionally doing a generous, thankless job for Alonso and the team and he is doing it with grace, without stirring up controversy. I hope Alonso appreciates that even if his fans don't, I'm sure he does, actually. One day he might not have it so sweet. And don't even bring the "he gets a nice pay cheque so I don't feel bad for him" argument (not that I do). All the drivers in top teams get paid without having to face the stuff Massa does.

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Massa is allowed to score decent results whenever he can get in the F2012 and do a better job than Alonso. At this point of the season Massa is in an absolutely #2 position because he's been unable to stay in the fight for the title. I think we agree on that point. There are a few thousand people working at the factories and the driver is working for a big corporation. I admit I can't understand Ferrari re-employing him, they tried to sign Webber but probably any other option was too risky or whatever.

Well, the underlined isn't true In fact, for Massa to get better results than Alonso he not only has to drive the car slightly better than Alonso (like Button does in Mclaren with Hamilton or to a greater extent Webber has to with Vettel in Red Bull), he has to drive it so that he has at least one car between himself and Alonso. Considering Alonso's talents, that would require Massa to drive...like a god to keep his results? Tough standard there.

Yes, I agree Massa isn't in the title, I'll give you that. I understand Ferrari re-hiring him perfectly, they like him because he is placid and does not make a fuss out of his situation the way Webber has in the past and like Barrichello did. Again, you would not find Red Bull re-hiring Webber if his results were like Massa's, and that's a fact. This all comes back to the difference in the way those teams are run and I can say that without vilifying Alonso or Ferrari, or on the other hand exonerating Red Bull or Vettel (and I think that's the main misunderstanding here and a failure on my part).

AleHop, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't really understand what you mean. I'm saying the backmarker didn't help Vettel that time and he got frustrated when Hamilton overtook him a few corners later but a lap or two earlier Vettel caught the backmarker in the DRS zone so he could use the DRS which didn't help Hamilton in his battle for the lead. I don't agree about Vettel being screwed once Hamilton got past him, he was able to fight for the lead again but it was probably too risky to make a move when he had a good result for the title and Hamilton was doing a great job. A few amazing laps.


I don't mind about the fans complaining about it when they type what's going on while watching the race but I'm not so understanding if they complain when the race is over, it's even worse if they're journalists. I agree it isn't an ideal situation that a backmarcker interfere with the lead but we're always told drivers have to deal with traffic and some races or podiums are decided like this every season. Narain K. has had to explain what happened which was pretty obvious, he had nowhere to go. So journalists are in some way asking him for being in the wrong place at the wrong moment?


From Singapore onwards his RB8 has been the clearly dominant car, fast and ready for the win everywhere. There's no reason to think anything will change in Brazil. It's no bad thing having a dream when the dream may come true but it's not an ideal situation either.

I think we basically agree here or in any case I can't put off work any longer

[Quiet One]

Great, my dentist did a bad job treating my tooth so now not only do I suffer excruciating pain, I must also wait until the whole area stops swelling before treating it again. I live in a world of constant pain which doesn't help any intents of writing rational posts. Not that I never post any.

Anyways, painkillers had just given me a 30 minutes (at most) of relative less pain. And although I would very much like to reply in length too all this issue I can't.

So I will just say this: I think Ferrari's  move was tasteless, no doubt. I also think that James Allen correctly pointed that it was cynical and desperate, but perfectly legit. SD said that any other team, in this same situation would have done the same, to which I agree and examples are plenty. And, finally, I think that they didn't have much choice, given that not doing this would have meant forfeiting any decent chances of staying in the fight at least until Brazil (the fact that afterwards they found out that starting 8th would have been probably more or less the same is irrelevant. At the moment of the decision EVERYBODY thought that starting from 8th would mean being at least 12th by turn 1). Letting Massa keep his place would not have earned them any reputation gain ("look! they lost the championship but they allowed Massa to start 6th instead of 11th...these guys are the coolest team on earth or what?" ) This way, at least they know that they have given their everything and then some.

All in all, they handled a classic team manipulation (which are always tasteless, given F1 ambiguous nature) in the best way the could: they went to Whiting and told him beforehand what were they going to do, they did not try to cover it as "we do not know what happened!" which is the usual reply in these cases, they publicily acknowledged Massa for accepting it, SD went to the press and openly admitted the "cheating", and Alonso admitted right after the race that Massa was the best driver of them both this weekend. It was a tasteful tasteless move, if you want  to, and one of the few things the team should be grateful to SD. Ferrari in the past would have certainly managed this in a far more underhanded way.

Back to work

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 19 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I think we basically agree here or in any case I can't put off work any longer

I will soon reply to yours and Brad's, get your metaljacket on and have your helmet ready.

HandyNZL and QO posted a very reasonable comment. They explained the Gearboxgate better than I was able to.