Standard Engines Introduced

[KazamaS15 0]

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/12/05/...andard-engines/

I think F1 is really falling apart. True, teams will be given the option of building their engines to Cosworth specs, but it surely won't be as good as the standard engine. Good bye Honda, now Alonso?

[Kati 0]

I really don't think it's gon happen. The manufacturer teams need to fully develop their own engines or what's the point of being there? Also, we have already plenty of movement for a offseason so it would be better to try not to ruin what's left of F1 in order to have F1 at all.

[raw 0]

Nothing to worry about. Mosley is old and so is Ecclestone. Soon they will be frying in hell and F1 will be still there better than ever. Every time somebody who has no engineering knowledge whatsoever tries to play engineer it's a perfect recipe for a disaster - whether it's a regular guy trying to tune his car using internet as a knowledge source or some old fart managing the highest level of motorsport (this would be even worse cause as far as I can tell - every man who has some sort of power or money wants a bit more and more, so he has to have some sort of his own interest in this whole case).

In fact I don't really care about these standarised engines cause with current rules it makes no difference at all. I reckon if we take two pairs of engines - one from formula 1 - say Renault and Ferrari for example and the other pair being some sort of regular road car 1.6 liter from a vauxhall astra and then if we examined them in all possible ways we would find much more difference between the two of mass producted 1.6's than two F1 engines coming from different manufacturers.

What's more those engine rules we have now are not reducing costs in any way. In fact they might even raise them. I believe Mr Mosley wanted to prevent the teams from further engine development but it turned out to be another evidence of his ********. If he was smart enough to get a good advisor on that case he would tell him that "yes it might be a good idea but not really for F1 - you see sometimes when it comes to certain engineering problems it's like having a 100 kg caucasian shepherd - when you have a house with a garden the dog would be happy with all the space he has, but if you move with him to a small flat the chances are he will get what he wants anyway and the flat would be ruined so it could turn out to be even more expensive than big house."

[Kati 0]

Max Mosley

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Well bernie and Max were looking after old friends! It seems Cosworth will be the only supplier...

There are far better ways to cut costs, for examble Cosworth can supply almost 75% of the engine and gearbox leaving the exhaust and the entire cylinder head and injection system free to develop by teams. You have the same but different engines. I would like to see Ferrari telling the world "our engine is designed and manufactured by Cosworth because we need to cut costs" ... then the entire press room will look like this:

[raw 0]

I don't get this "road relevant" nonsense. I can't think of a one single thing in F1 that is or could be road relevant. Maybe some bits in recent ferrari's and some more in caparo T1, but that's not a good example really.

[DOF_power 0]

I don't get this "road relevant" nonsense. I can't think of a one single thing in F1 that is or could be road relevant. Maybe some bits in recent ferrari's and some more in caparo T1, but that's not a good example really.

Balestre and Mosley-Ecclestone eliminated everything that was, is or could be road relevant one day.

Like turbos, TC, ABS, eCVTs, active dampers, 4 wheel steering, variable intake, variable valve timing, variable exhaust, advanced-intelligent ECUs.

[mikathegreat2 2]

2009 better be a good season cos by 2010, I'm getting Sky Digital to watch ALMS, even though Penske might be gone!

[raw 0]

Balestre and Mosley-Ecclestone eliminated everything that was, is or could be road relevant one day.

Like turbos, TC, ABS, eCVTs, active dampers, 4 wheel steering, variable intake, variable valve timing, variable exhaust, advanced-intelligent ECUs.

Well that's not exactly what I'm all about. I mean that Mosley and others are pushing for road relevant technologies in F1 like it was something important for car and overall machine industry, like F1 was supposed to be exploring new technologies which can be later transferred to road cars...

That sounds pretty nice but it's just not possible to achieve for few reasons.

First of all it's not that easy to push some engineering technology forward - for example something about increasing efficiency of turbine profiles - you need a laboratory for that with some expensive equipement in it and a bunch of engineers plus a lot of money - so maybe in some considerable time they will come up with something... it might lead to dead end though.

Ofcourse in F1 they're doing similar things but they're focusing on f.e. decreasing friction in the engines, the exhaust or aerodynamics - theoretically things that might just be useful in a road car industry as well. But since an F1 racer operates at enourmous speeds and so is it's engine the difference between it and road cars is almost as big as with boats and planes - basicly it's the same thing - for example hulls - both are in the interest of fluid mechanics, but with completely different operating areas, targets and the ways to get to those.

Sometimes though certaing things may be transferred from one field to another but never on the mass scale - all things considered it isn't F1 giving goods to the road car industry - rather the opposite way. It is simply because road car industry or any else doesn't really need something like F1 to push forward cause comparing to this F1 is like a drop in the lake. Hasn't got enough man power, time and money to do things like that so I think they should stop that "road relevant" bulls##t which isn't true anyway and focus on what they've been always doing since the beginning and that is using known technology and developing it for high level motorsport purpose.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes. KERS is a very useful technology that could be road relevant but it's too complicated for the engineers in F1. Ferrari are whining about how expensive and complicated and innovative it is. McLaren haven't whined because they're paying other companies with more engineering expertise to do the hard work for them. F1 'innovates' by paying smarter people to do any thinking that evil, Mad Max cruelly forces on them.

[DOF_power 0]

Well that's not exactly what I'm all about. I mean that Mosley and others are pushing for road relevant technologies in F1 like it was something important for car and overall machine industry, like F1 was supposed to be exploring new technologies which can be later transferred to road cars...

That sounds pretty nice but it's just not possible to achieve for few reasons.

First of all it's not that easy to push some engineering technology forward - for example something about increasing efficiency of turbine profiles - you need a laboratory for that with some expensive equipement in it and a bunch of engineers plus a lot of money - so maybe in some considerable time they will come up with something... it might lead to dead end though.

Ofcourse in F1 they're doing similar things but they're focusing on f.e. decreasing friction in the engines, the exhaust or aerodynamics - theoretically things that might just be useful in a road car industry as well. But since an F1 racer operates at enourmous speeds and so is it's engine the difference between it and road cars is almost as big as with boats and planes - basicly it's the same thing - for example hulls - both are in the interest of fluid mechanics, but with completely different operating areas, targets and the ways to get to those.

Sometimes though certaing things may be transferred from one field to another but never on the mass scale - all things considered it isn't F1 giving goods to the road car industry - rather the opposite way. It is simply because road car industry or any else doesn't really need something like F1 to push forward cause comparing to this F1 is like a drop in the lake. Hasn't got enough man power, time and money to do things like that so I think they should stop that "road relevant" bulls##t which isn't true anyway and focus on what they've been always doing since the beginning and that is using known technology and developing it for high level motorsport purpose.

First of all Mosley isn't pushing any road relevant technologies. He's just spilling a bunch of PR B* to make himself look good, a fool idiots that F1 isn't a s##tty spec series.

Motorsport in general, and GP racing in particular, was supposed to be about pushing the envelope, exploring new technologies and/or refining existing ones which can/must be later transferred to road cars...

That's why motorsport was created in the 1890s at the express desire of the french car manufacturers.

A perfect example, the hydraulic dampers and detachable wheel rims where the secrets to Renault's victory in the first official GP in 1906. The hydraulic dampers where invented by Louis Renault himself, and good buddy Michelin came with the detachable wheel rim.

As KERS, McLaren was working on such a system in 2000/2001. The eCVT transmission suggested by FIA for 2011+, well Williams had such a prototype in 1993.

Advanced active suspensions, active dampers, multilink suspensions, direct injection both mechanic and electronic, electronic starters, light alloy wheels, streamlined bodies, TC, eABS, movable wongs, even the turbos wheren't known or properly developed automotive technologies, heck they didn't even exist some of them.

Funny how despite being short on manpower, facilites and money, they created all this and more (the active suspensions where even proclaimed impossible by academics).

Get this thru your thick skull there's no better enviroment for developing and/or refining technologies that true/real motorsport.

Because in motorspoort there's no 6 months from now beaurocratic B*, in motorsport you need result and you need them this Sunday, cause the competition's gonna kick you in the balls.

Motorsport has other reason to exist than pushing the envelope.

[DOF_power 0]

Yes. KERS is a very useful technology that could be road relevant but it's too complicated for the engineers in F1. Ferrari are whining about how expensive and complicated and innovative it is. McLaren haven't whined because they're paying other companies with more engineering expertise to do the hard work for them. F1 'innovates' by paying smarter people to do any thinking that evil, Mad Max cruelly forces on them.

That because they've been forced to "sleep" in this Balestre-Mosley mediocre crapola piece of s##t and focused their money on winglets and suspension geometries.

The true pioneers of GP racing would have never said anything like that. Just an example of the forced mediocratization process induced by loonatics.

[DOF_power 0]

Death is preferable to becoming a spec series.

[raw 0]

First of all Mosley isn't pushing any road relevant technologies. He's just spilling a bunch of PR B* to make himself look good, a fool idiots that F1 isn't a s##tty spec series.

That's true, he can't be that stupid after all.

Motorsport in general, and GP racing in particular, was supposed to be about pushing the envelope, exploring new technologies and/or refining existing ones which can/must be later transferred to road cars...

Yes it was...in the early XX century when car industry was at it's very beginning. Because modern day research was simply out of the case, there was simply much easier to few brave testers to try if a certain idea really worked.

Today it's a different thing. The car industry is so well developed that it's rather pushing motorsports forward than being pushed by motorsports.

As KERS, McLaren was working on such a system in 2000/2001. The eCVT transmission suggested by FIA for 2011+, well Williams had such a prototype in 1993.

Advanced active suspensions, active dampers, multilink suspensions, direct injection both mechanic and electronic, electronic starters, light alloy wheels, streamlined bodies, TC, eABS, movable wongs, even the turbos wheren't known or properly developed automotive technologies, heck they didn't even exist some of them.

Funny how despite being short on manpower, facilites and money, they created all this and more (the active suspensions where even proclaimed impossible by academics).

Actually most of the technologies you mentioned was in fact developed much earlier in naval engineering and aeronautics

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

movable wongs

Ah, good old moveable wongs, you just don't see enough of them in F1 these days.

Yeah.... static wongs just weren't good enough....

Sounds like a good name for a Chinese karate troop ".....and introducing...... the Moveable Wongs!!"

Or is it the new name for KFC's take away service - you can get them regular or in spicy hot versions...

And just remember too many wongs do not make a wight...

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Death is preferable to becoming a spec series.

Personally I'd rather live but I know you feel strongly about this....

[DOF_power 0]

That's true, he can't be that stupid after all.

Yes it was...in the early XX century when car industry was at it's very beginning. Because modern day research was simply out of the case, there was simply much easier to few brave testers to try if a certain idea really worked.

Today it's a different thing. The car industry is so well developed that it's rather pushing motorsports forward than being pushed by motorsports.

Actually most of the technologies you mentioned was in fact developed much earlier in naval engineering and aeronautics

There where no brave testers. The race, car and driver where the test, test subject and testers. If it worked it trickled down

The car industry isn't pushing motorsport (if anything it's the suppliers and other special/outsource partners), because true/real motorsport is pretty much dead.

True/real motorsport is by definition that witch pushes the car industry.

Many of the technologies came indeed from naval engineering and aeronautics, but not all. Suspensions had almost

Their transformation/adaptation/refinement to racecars was no small feat, often requiring clever thinking, then they passed onto production cars.

Then there's areas where they surpassed the aerospace-defence industry, such as the use of composite materials, real time actuation (the advanced active suspensions of Williams where similar to Eurofighter Typhoon's system, but they came first) , and aerodynamics (Toyota's chief aero admitted this; RF1's Pat Symonds said Boeing actually used some airflow-winglet stuff on their planes), Li-Ion batteries (McLaren).

The tools used by both the automotive industry and aerospace-defence industry are F1 tools.

Your opinion about manpower, money and resources and motorsport can do with then if very much wrong.

It's the auto industry that's wastefull, bureaucratic, slow, ineficient and most if not all of it's innovations come from its suplliers and other special parters/outsource companies.

The automakers just rebrand/give fancy names to these technologies and advertise the s##t out of them.

[Max Mosley 2]

That because they've been forced to "sleep" in this Balestre-Mosley mediocre crapola piece of s##t and focused their money on winglets and suspension geometries.

The true pioneers of GP racing would have never said anything like that. Just an example of the forced mediocratization process induced by loonatics.

Fair enough; perhaps they wouldn't. Perhaps in the old days F1 was innovative, although I don't think they were ever geniuses. Nowadays there is no point watching F1 for innovation so I don't know why you don't look elsewhere, if you're really interested in research. And frankly, there always was better innovation to be found elsewhere.

Yes it was...in the early XX century when car industry was at it's very beginning. Because modern day research was simply out of the case, there was simply much easier to few brave testers to try if a certain idea really worked.

Today it's a different thing. The car industry is so well developed that it's rather pushing motorsports forward than being pushed by motorsports.

Yes, modern research is simply too advanced and wide-spread for F1 to compete. The days when a lone man in a garage could design a world-beating car are long past. Max gave them a chance with KERS and it was too much for them.

[maure 1]

Innovation matters. It is absurd to claim otherwise. F1 cars are not what they are by chance and F1 is not followed more than other motorsport competitions because of heroworshippers.

That innovation matters to F1 is exemplified by things like KERS. If the application of technology is not the point of F1, why bring it up at all?

The real question is why something like Turbo, for example, has been outlawed. Regulations like this choke the sport. If innovation was allowed, there would incentives to seek alternatives to current technologies, perhaps cheaper alternatives. But when the options are severely limited, the only course of action is greater spending for lesser returns.

Most of us would not watch F1 if the grid was filled with factory cars. It would simply make no sense. Those competitions exists already and most of us still prefer F1 to them. And so, in regards to the "standards" madness, it absurd to try to convince us that we have to settle for factory cars that _look_ like F1 cars...

[DOF_power 0]

Fair enough; perhaps they wouldn't. Perhaps in the old days F1 was innovative, although I don't think they were ever geniuses. Nowadays there is no point watching F1 for innovation so I don't know why you don't look elsewhere, if you're really interested in research. And frankly, there always was better innovation to be found elsewhere.

Apart from maybe NASA or some aerospace*defense suppliers/partners, motorsport was ahead of the curve. Many thing or at least refinements where done by individuals or small groups.

Yes, modern research is simply too advanced and wide-spread for F1 to compete. The days when a lone man in a garage could design a world-beating car are long past. Max gave them a chance with KERS and it was too much for them.

It's not too advanced, it's too annoying and expensive when you're pumping 120-200 million on frozen engines while also having to pay for the change in aerodynamics.

Ever since the late 60s/early 70s witch saw the introduction of a weight limit, dimension limits and aero development, anything that messed up the precious aero and weight balance and didn't brought a huge advantage was deemed the work of Satan.

That's what killed the AWD turbine cars, the inital winglets cars and the inital active suspensions from Lotus.

KERS would have been acceptable if it would have been a 4 wheels system and packed a lot more punch and came in a time where expensive aero-balance-suspension-tires where not made.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

Standard engines do not distinguish F1 from any other spec series but it may be that this is the way we have to go to survive.

[Max Mosley 2]

Imho the USP of F1 should be the driving talent. That's the reason most people watch it, although the fans at tf1 might have different priorities. F1 is never going to be the pinnacle of technological innovation, and anyone with any sense who wants to see that is always going to go look at real science instead of a sport/game.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

Agreed, although the innovation has to play a part in order to separate the good from the bad.