Prodrive In, Toyota Out

[Insider 0]

Hmm, so far there hasn't been such a bad case in MotoGP as in F1 really. Bridgestone are the sole tyre supplier but basically because Michelin underperformed severely and the riders complained. The rest of unpopular rule changes have been introduced generally thinking of the safety of the riders, though the teams already found their way around them...

If the breakaway series could be similar to MotoGP that would be at the very least amazing.

Having given it some serious thought, I can't help but agree.

[F1 FANatic 1]

To this end, if you do intend to enter, it would be helpful if you would let us have drafts of the precise rules you wish adopted, as much of the Enclosure 3 submitted by FOTA on behalf of the 2009 teams is currently in the form of minutes and statements of intent rather than the clear rules which you [and we] seek

I think Max has given them some room here but I bet the Teams will write out the rules they want, send them to Max and then wash their hands of it because Max first wanted their input and then just threw the rules out the window

I don't think Max understands that the teams have him by the balls, and not they way he would like it

[F1 FANatic 1]

Also, the FIA will need to know who to discuss the draft with. There will certainly be new teams in 2010 and it presently seems unlikely that all of the 2009 teams will participate in 2010. Obviously the draft should be discussed between those that will participate only.

After reading through the letter again it looks like Max does not believe that all the teams really want to be in F1 regardless of the rules next year. I think he might be listening to the Toyota rumors too much, I for one think Toyota will probuably be back next year with the rest of FOTA if they get their way

[yurp 0]

Brilliant - how stupid does max think everyone else is?

Enter unconditionally because...

If all teams (including the new ones) agree to changes that only the FIA (I) can submit, then you'll get your way.

Laughable.

[Insider 0]

An extraordinary letter. His arrogance is only surpassed by his complete ignorance of the situation on the ground. That he should form a supposition that some teams may not be around in 2010, purely on rumour, gossip and innuendo is appalling. It may point to the fact that he was hoping to refuse entry to the five manufacturing teams, who had agreed upon a 'loyalty' bond, as such an agreement might be construed to be in breach of the UK's 2002 Enterprises Act and/or EU competition law. These are the stories I was hearing about Toyota being cajoled into leaving, as it was John Howett who brokered the 'bond' deal in Monaco. It's a very thin argument anyway. The FIA have certainly taken legal advice on the point, according to Autosport. In short, he has reached the point of no return and would rather walk over the cliff than turn back. He has really ****ed up this time.

EDIT: Typo

[yurp 0]

so basically he now wants to force the teams to enter, or else sue them for not doing so.

what's the point max?

what could be worse than a championship without all the top teams?

a championship in which those teams made no effort whatsoever.

[F1 FANatic 1]

An extraordinary letter. His arrogance is only surpassed by his complete ignorance of the situation on the ground. That he should form a supposition that some teams may not be around in 2010, purely on rumour, gossip and innuendo is appalling. It may point to the fact that he was hoping to refuse entry to the five manufacturing teams, who had agreed upon a 'loyalty' bond, as such an agreement might be construed to be in breach of the UK's 2002 Enterprises Act and/or EU competition law. These are the stories I was hearing about Toyota being cajoled into leaving, as it was John Howett who brokered the 'bond' deal in Monaco. It's a very thin argument anyway. The FIA have certainly taken legal advice on the point, according to Autosport. In short, he has reached the point of no return and would rather walk over the cliff than turn back. He has really ****ed up this time.

EDIT: Typo

Here is the article on speedtv http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-...ave-broken-law/

The bit of law they quote already defeats Max's case because as he himself said, the FIA does not need FOTA to run F1 because the grid would already be full. There are more than enough teams to fill the grid so Max can't complaine that the teams are depriving him of providing a service who's only act is to bring a full grid to the race

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

what could be worse than a championship without all the top teams?

a championship in which those teams made no effort whatsoever.

Don't believe all the hype. This is a high-stakes poker game here where neither side is trying to back down but where both have a similar end in mind. Both sides are also using the media heavily.

Mark my words - F1 will continue with the presence of big teams (but maybe not all of them). What we are witnessing here is a lot of spin. I have heard that there are lots of closed-door discussions going on between FIA and FOTA and don't think they are that far apart.

There may be a few rocky moments (e.g. June 12th) but again I say that I do not see the manufacturers setting up an alternate series for 2010. The parent companies don't have the cash to invest in that nor is there the time/will.

[Insider 0]

Here is the article on speedtv http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-...ave-broken-law/

The bit of law they quote already defeats Max's case because as he himself said, the FIA does not need FOTA to run F1 because the grid would already be full. There are more than enough teams to fill the grid so Max can't complaine that the teams are depriving him of providing a service who's only act is to bring a full grid to the race

You have it. In addition, Ferrari's Agreement with the FIA and FOM is null and void as the FIA have already breached it by not introducing the 2010 regs through the FIA Commission, which is the correct governance procedure as laid down in the FIA charters.

[Insider 0]

Don't believe all the hype. This is a high-stakes poker game here where neither side is trying to back down but where both have a similar end in mind. Both sides are also using the media heavily.

Mark my words - F1 will continue with the presence of big teams (but maybe not all of them). What we are witnessing here is a lot of spin. I have heard that there are lots of closed-door discussions going on between FIA and FOTA and don't think they are that far apart.

There may be a few rocky moments (e.g. June 12th) but again I say that I do not see the manufacturers setting up an alternate series for 2010. The parent companies don't have the cash to invest in that nor is there the time/will.

Can you name a your sources?

[yurp 0]

Don't believe all the hype. This is a high-stakes poker game here where neither side is trying to back down but where both have a similar end in mind. Both sides are also using the media heavily.

of course

Mark my words - F1 will continue with the presence of big teams (but maybe not all of them). What we are witnessing here is a lot of spin. I have heard that there are lots of closed-door discussions going on between FIA and FOTA and don't think they are that far apart.

I see much the same result - no renault, no ferrari, no red bull, no toro roso possibly no merc cars (I see the possibility of Bernie stepping in and making a good monetary offer to keep merc cars in F1).

I'm sure there are frantic closed door meetings going on, but I think it's gone so far that it won't be Max and team principles talking, rather their poor go betweens trying to get stuff agreed and getting shafted by their puppeteers, - I don't see much headway being made that way.

There may be a few rocky moments (e.g. June 12th) but again I say that I do not see the manufacturers setting up an alternate series for 2010. The parent companies don't have the cash to invest in that nor is there the time/will.

There is no one in the position to proverbially bang their heads together, so I see June 12th as being slightly more than rocky. The problem is that whoever is sensible enough to put racing before ego will not get their way - the side which thinks themselves more important than anyone else will win (or if both sides continue like that, we all loose). It was ever thus.

[Ikyrotz 0]

Here is Max's long-awaited letter:

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/309...er_to_shape_F1/

He truly is arrogant. Does he really think that the teams will fall for "just sign up with the capped rules, and agree to race no matter what, and then we can modify the rules, but only if the new teams, which rely on the budget cap, agree to modify them as well". He is just trying to get the opinion of the public on his side by giving an impression of giving in to FOTA.

It has been clear to me for some time now that the best thing that could happen is for a new series to form, the way FIA (Mosley) governs the sport has destroyed it. Moreover, it is completely hypocritical of FIA to claim they are trying to bring the costs down, when it has been their constant rule changes that have forced the teams to design a brand new car for practically every season. It has always been FOTA that has tried to bring the costs down (by test bans etc.), which of course makes sense: they are the ones who always foot the bill, not FIA. FIA only started to worry about this when it became evident that even the big teams are starting to drop (Honda). The way to cure this, however, is not by some arbitrary budget cap, but by stabilizing the rules and continuing on the road FOTA has been going along all the time. FIA doesn't appear to get this so a new series seems like a much better option. Now may not be the best time to launch it, but if FIA keeps going like this, it will happen sooner than later.

[wapi 4]

Ecclestone has spoken. He is with Max! I am disappointed in him.

Now we see what are manufacturers going to do.

[yurp 0]

from bernie...

[yurp 0]

Doesn't know which way to go on this season either...

First...

This is a great championship for most people because they like having Brawn and Red Bull at the front rather than Ferrari and McLaren as usual. This has happened because of the rule changes and because we have stopped testing in a season, which I was always against.

from here

Then talking about Button's winning ways...

It is obviously super for him, but it is not great for the spectacle [or] the championship.

from here

EDIT - to clarify...

Does the man want to support Max's rule changes or does he want to admit that the lack of competition this season has been caused by those self same rule changes?

How?

They changed the rules which allowed certain teams to use their ingenuity to get ahead. The lack of in season testing stops other teams from effectively catching up.

So are the rule changes good or s##t Bernie? - make your mind up.

[Insider 0]

This is from Planet F1.com. It is clear that Max agreed to a more measured approach over the cap nonsense and a some other team critical adjustments too like a new Concorde Agreement, no racing rules changes for 2001 and a deletion of the 'two-tier notion'. We should also remind ourselves that the cap in 'voluntary'. Personally, I am against any cap whatsoever - it lets in the 'chancers' and maximises the likelihood of the safety car being on track for half the race! However, with only three new teams coming in if FOTA stays, it's not too bad. In short, you can't change something unless you're inside it. With a new series tough to set up within the current time frame, I would race on and make plans to jump ship in 2012 if Max continues to be inflexible. I was concerned that neither Mercedes nor Macca were at yesterday's meeting.

Despite further lengthy negotiations between Mosley, Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali, Toyota Motorsport boss and FOTA vice-chairman John Howett, Red Bull Racing chief Christian Horner and Ross Brawn, it is understood fundamental differences still remain.

If that is the case then the names on the grid for next year are likely to be very different to those currently competing.

In a bid to potentially soften criticism of his decision, a letter from Mosley to Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has been leaked.

The timing of it cannot be ignored as it paints Mosley in a particularly good light, as someone willing to fall back on his previously hardline stance over the voluntary cap.

The suggestion is it is the teams who have perhaps refused to play fair, and fall into line with his conciliatory thinking.

In the letter, dated May 26, Mosley is adamant a cap must be in place for next year, but he suggests it "could be as high as 100 million euros".

The figure would then fall to 45 million euros in 2011, at least offering the teams a year's breathing space instead of demanding such a cap be in place for 2010, as initially stated.

Of greater significance is Mosley agreeing to all teams racing "under the same 2010 rules...with the technical and sporting advantages originally offered to the cost-cap teams deleted".

Such a proposal would have ensured no two-tier F1, with Mosley suggesting a transfer of "know-how between current teams and new entrants, at least for 2010, and possibly for 2011".

Mosley further agreed that "one employee per team in addition to the drivers be outside the cap for 2011 and thereafter".

This would have allowed the likes of an Adrian Newey to be exempt given the level of his salary paid by Red Bull Racing for his technical expertise.

Mosley also confirms he is willing "to negotiate a new Concorde Agreement" (the confidential commercial document governing the sport), given FOTA's initial draft was "broadly acceptable".

Given FOTA's abhorrence of the phrase 'cost cap', Mosley even indicated for future reference it could be described as "financial regulations, or any other sensible term".

So with Mosley seemingly willing to relent, the obvious question falls on the shoulders of the eight remaining members of FOTA: Why have they not accepted such proposals and signed up?

It is known the likes of Toyota, for instance, were fundamentally against the imposition of any cap at any level, which is why the teams were demanding this year's rules be in place for next year.

At the heart of the matter has also been Mosley's governance, with the teams calling for there to be change going forward for the sport to thrive and prosper.

With seemingly no middle ground on such points, despite Mosley's insistence this week that the FOTA eight sign up unconditionally so they could play a part in shaping any new rules, F1 stands on the brink of a seismic change.

It is known that due to contractual obligations, Williams and Force India lodged unconditional entries and will definitely be two of the potential 13 teams to be confirmed for 2010 around lunchtime on Friday.

The suggestion is Ferrari will also be included due to a deal with the FIA in 2005 that legally binds them to F1 until 2012.

Ferrari have already argued such an agreement is invalid as Mosley neglected to keep his side of the contract in failing to consult with the teams over the rule changes.

There is also an unconfirmed claim that Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso will be included due to contractual conditions of their own.

If so, that would leave McLaren, Toyota, BMW, Renault and Brawn GP out of F1, opening up the possibility of eight new teams being on the grid.

At least 10 teams are known to have lodged entries prior to the May 29 deadline - Prodrive, Lola, Team US F1, Campos Meta1, March, Team Superfund, Lotus-Litespeed GP, N.Technology, Formtech-Brabham and Epsilon Euskadi.

[wapi 4]

This is from Planet F1.com. It is clear that Max agreed to a more measured approach over the cap nonsense and a some other team critical adjustments too like a new Concorde Agreement, no racing rules changes for 2001 and a deletion of the 'two-tier notion'. We should also remind ourselves that the cap in 'voluntary'. Personally, I am against any cap whatsoever - it lets in the 'chancers' and maximises the likelihood of the safety car being on track for half the race! However, with only three new teams coming in if FOTA stays, it's not too bad. In short, you can't change something unless you're inside it. With a new series tough to set up within the current time frame, I would race on and make plans to jump ship in 2012 if Max continues to be inflexible. I was concerned that neither Mercedes nor Macca were at yesterday's meeting.

They can agree on 100million and then use Ferrari veto to deny it being lowered to 45million that would be perfect **** up for Mosley. But if I were FOTA I would not sign up before rules are changed as agreed. Mosley has been known to change his mind and roll over his promises.

[Insider 0]

They can agree on 100million and then use Ferrari veto to deny it being lowered to 45million that would be perfect **** up for Mosley. But if I were FOTA I would not sign up before rules are changed as agreed. Mosley has been known to change his mind and roll over his promises.

I think he might see that coming! As I have just said in another thread, [What FOTA Really Want?], however this goes, we really are looking at a 16 car grid and a probably scrap for the title between Williams and FI. More importantly, I really don't think any new entrant will have a car ready in time. Williams and FI could probably get away with the 2009 car - that how bad it will be. Who will broadcast that?

[Jean Todt 4]

Oops...Toyota in, Prodrive out.

[Quiet One 15]

Oops...Toyota in, Prodrive out.

[wapi 4]

New teams are only those who agreed to race regardles of budget cap ammount or even its existance!

[Jean Todt 4]

New teams are only those who agreed to race regardles of budget cap ammount or even its existance!

Its now going to be difficult to count how many teams may leave mid season next year or after. I don't understand why Prodrive really needs to enter F1, ofcourse they are fantastic guys, but why take more money from Sheiks. Aston Martin has a decent reputation and it is operating in its full capacity, and why they need F1 now, and that too in this state, if I were DR, I would try and win lotsa races in LeMans or make a superb looking mid engined Aston Martin and so on. F1 has been in a state of mess for sometime now, and will continue, its not just Max and Bernie who have to take the blame, but most teams. Remember, back when Mclarens were dominating, it was Ferrari who were bleating that some teams were using exotic materials in their engines thus pushing the costs up etc etc and when it was banned they started dominating, while they continued to have unlimited testings etc etc.and then the next day they will be whining about how expensive F1 has become and FIAT doesnt give them any money and so on......I see a lot of hippocracy in both the parties...Its become too complicated, politics have become bigger than racing, I noticed my friends talking about politics in F1 more than racing, none of them noticed how Lewis overtook Kimi and how Nelson overtook Lewis last race, its all become politics. If you turn the pages of history books, you will notice how many systems collapsed slowly when politics, corruption, alcohol and multiple sex orgies became a part of the system. I can see it happening in F1 now.

I am really sorry to say all that, but, F1 has lost its racing appeal. Thats what I feel.

Bye....time to make chicken curry.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Todays when the big meeting about next year is happening! I'd like to see Epsilon Euskadi in F1! They had gorgeous LMP's last year, pity they were a piece of crap! They were just plain black!