Renault Under Investigation?

[AleHop 0]

Complete analysis on some future post. Briefly: in any case Piquet screwed himself royally and I am not sure what for. Renault's corporate image will be screwed no matter the outcome. Flavio's takeover in case of a pullout from Renault is at stake, Symmonds will take most of the guilt if things go wrong, Alonso's move to Ferrari will probably suffer a delay and maybe even a cancellation if this keeps growing. I can't see any outcome in which Renault will end being more guilty than Piquet, though, unless Mosley decides to get back at Flav for all the humiliatons in the past.

I think Mr. BollocKERS or Mr. Lazy Bollocks pointed that out first but it sounds like too much hassle for probably too little reward. Another SC could have been deployed (as it happened, I think) and for sure the plan was not that easy to work out fine. Anyway they knew they had a good car for that race with Alonso, and maybe they thought they could win with a little help.

But why would they fire him and didn't wait for the end of the season?

They should know he would talk or his father could kill him.

[Edited twice to leave it like the original]

[Quiet One 15]

Did you really read the part that I am talking about? and if you really did can you explain it to me please? maybe I am missing something here but you can make me understand it the way you do.

Sure.

The word KNOWING there functions as an adverb, not as a verb and thus does not call for a subject, but modifies the actual action ("to allow to overtake"). The subject in the phrase is "This" which, in this case, stands for "The strategy". So, the phrase actually means that The strategy would work for Alonso, as it would allow him to overtake as many cars as possible. It does not need Alonso's knowledge of the crash to make it work and it is not implied in the phrase. The strategy (according to Piquet's hintings) was devised between Flavio, Symmonds and Nelsinho.

(WARNING: I am trying to think in Spanish terms for my knowledge of English grammar is substandard, so maybe I got the terminology wrong, but the sense is the same)

[Kati 0]

Sure.

The word KNOWING there functions as an adverb, not as a verb and thus does not call for a subject, but modifies the actual action ("to allow to overtake"). The subject in the phrase is "This" which, in this case, stands for "The strategy". So, the phrase actually means that The strategy would work for Alonso, as it would allow him to overtake as many cars as possible. It does not need Alonso's knowledge of the crash to make it work and it is not implied in the phrase. The strategy (according to Piquet's hintings) was devised between Flavio, Symmonds and Nelsinho.

(WARNING: I am trying to think in Spanish terms for my knowledge of English grammar is substandard, so maybe I got the terminology wrong, but the sense is the same)

agreed. i also did not see any 'fernando knew it' on that.

[AleHop 0]

(WARNING: I am trying to think in Spanish terms for my knowledge of English grammar is substandard, so maybe I got the terminology wrong, but the sense is the same)

Don't worry, nobody in this forum sees the difference between a verb and an adverb but all of them know Alonso has nothing to do with that evil plan.

[Quiet One 15]

Don't worry, nobody in this forum sees the difference between a verb and an adverb but all of them know Alonso has nothing to do with that evil plan.

Ermm...actually, I am not sure he has nothing to do with that plan. All I am saying is that such knowledge was not implied anywhere in Piquet's statement. I didn't think Piquet's crash was on purpose for a start and here we are.

[Rainmaster 7]

Yes, so far there is nothing which implicates Alonso in any way. If he was involved, I'm sure he would have been in the meeting, unless Piquet omitted that to protect him for some unknown reason, which I doubt. It's most likely that despite the fact he was the main beneficiary of this incredibly dumb plan, he knew nothing about it (it makes the most sense, at least). However, it's also possible he did know, or found out at a later point. Either way, I don't see Alonso as a guilty party; he certainly didn't come up with the plan; there was no practical way he could prevent it from happening; and if he found out later then I hardly think he could be blamed for not going to the FIA. From that perspective, I don't see why Alonso would receive all that much negative PR, or why it should effect his expected move to Ferrari. At least I hope that's the case.

If Piquet's claims are true, then I agree with Andres that it was probably Symonds who "masterminded" it (I use quotes because mastermind is the wrong word for such a dumb plan), whereas Briatore probably just suggested something needed to be done (perhaps to delay Renault's exit from the sport, or to keep Alonso onboard). Or maybe I don't give Flav enough credit. Anyway, it's a shame if Symonds did come up with this, he's a pretty respected guy in the paddock. As for Briatore and Symonds, it's hard to believe they didn't see this coming back on them at some point, with the way they dealt with Piquet's departure.

It'll be interesting to see what Renault are charged with and what kind of penalty they get if convicted. I know the FIA (or WMSC) have no regard for precedent because they aren't a proper court, but how will the penalty reflect against the one handed to Macca for nicking Ferrari's designs? Surely it's an offence in the same league if not a higher league; I read a feature on autosport where the gist was that stuff like this has always gone on and it's the same in other sports, and implying that really Renault should get a slap on the wrist. I think that's a pretty poor argument though, I think race fixing must be one of the highest crimes (breach of the regulations) you could commit in F1 and the punishment should reflect that.

As others have said, Piquet stands to lose just as much from this as Renault do, as far as I can tell. At the moment, the only person who stands to gain anything is one Nico Rosberg - who could well be awarded a first victory under very unusual circumstances.

[AleHop 0]

I didn't think Piquet's crash was on purpose for a start and here we are.

Telemetry will tell whether Piquet's crash was on purpose or not. Then we'll have few questions to close the case.

Did any team member know about that?

Was that plotted by the team?

Did Alonso know about that and Queen Elizabeth II knew the outcome?

[pabloh20 1]

Ermm...actually, I am not sure he has nothing to do with that plan. All I am saying is that such knowledge was not implied anywhere in Piquet's statement. I didn't think Piquet's crash was on purpose for a start and here we are.

You're thinking that it's a nice 'coincidence' for Jr to take advantage of because he's bitter

Well, to be honest, I think it has as much credibility. One thing for sure, if it was planned (and I don't really believe that myself yet) I don't think Jr could have done it by himself. It would have taken some planning, even during the race, to co-ordinate it. Well, I think it would, anyway.

I still can't really fathom why, though. Ok so Renault got the win, but it's not like it was their first ever win. It's not like Alonso was in with a shout of winning the title. How much could they realistically gain from winning 1 race, but sacrificing possible points from Jr? Ok that might be stretching the argument a little, but you know what I mean Now if it turned out there was heavy betting on an Alonso win at favourable odds........

Yes, so far there is nothing which implicates Alonso in any way. If he was involved, I'm sure he would have been in the meeting, unless Piquet omitted that to protect him for some unknown reason, which I doubt. It's most likely that despite the fact he was the main beneficiary of this incredibly dumb plan, he knew nothing about it (it makes the most sense, at least). However, it's also possible he did know, or found out at a later point. Either way, I don't see Alonso as a guilty party; he certainly didn't come up with the plan; there was no practical way he could prevent it from happening; and if he found out later then I hardly think he could be blamed for not going to the FIA. From that perspective, I don't see why Alonso would receive all that much negative PR, or why it should effect his expected move to Ferrari. At least I hope that's the case.

If Piquet's claims are true, then I agree with Andres that it was probably Symonds who "masterminded" it (I use quotes because mastermind is the wrong word for such a dumb plan), whereas Briatore probably just suggested something needed to be done (perhaps to delay Renault's exit from the sport, or to keep Alonso onboard). Or maybe I don't give Flav enough credit. Anyway, it's a shame if Symonds did come up with this, he's a pretty respected guy in the paddock. As for Briatore and Symonds, it's hard to believe they didn't see this coming back on them at some point, with the way they dealt with Piquet's departure.

It'll be interesting to see what Renault are charged with and what kind of penalty they get if convicted. I know the FIA (or WMSC) have no regard for precedent because they aren't a proper court, but how will the penalty reflect against the one handed to Macca for nicking Ferrari's designs? Surely it's an offence in the same league if not a higher league; I read a feature on autosport where the gist was that stuff like this has always gone on and it's the same in other sports, and implying that really Renault should get a slap on the wrist. I think that's a pretty poor argument though, I think race fixing must be one of the highest crimes (breach of the regulations) you could commit in F1 and the punishment should reflect that.

As others have said, Piquet stands to lose just as much from this as Renault do, as far as I can tell. At the moment, the only person who stands to gain anything is one Nico Rosberg - who could well be awarded a first victory under very unusual circumstances.

Yeah, I have to admit, when I saw the 'statements' from Symonds & Flav, I started thinking that if they have done it, how many other times has it been done, by other teams too. Unfortunately, my memory is so poor that I can't remember any other instances and I'm to bollocking lazy to look

I can't actually decide how much of an infraction I think it is. I am leaning towards 'if they want to be so stupid as to deliberately crash, then let them' sort of mindset at the moment. Maybe I just can't be bothered about the whole thing, but I can't see it as being a tactic that would really catch on.

[Schumikonen 2]

Sure.

The word KNOWING there functions as an adverb, not as a verb and thus does not call for a subject, but modifies the actual action ("to allow to overtake"). The subject in the phrase is "This" which, in this case, stands for "The strategy". So, the phrase actually means that The strategy would work for Alonso, as it would allow him to overtake as many cars as possible. It does not need Alonso's knowledge of the crash to make it work and it is not implied in the phrase. The strategy (according to Piquet's hintings) was devised between Flavio, Symmonds and Nelsinho.

(WARNING: I am trying to think in Spanish terms for my knowledge of English grammar is substandard, so maybe I got the terminology wrong, but the sense is the same)

Definitely you are an AFB, you just see what you want to see, the frase does not says anywhere that the strategy would allow him to overtake as many cars as possible, it clearly says that he needed to overtakes those cars and that those cars would have a hard time catching up because of the plan of crashing and bringing the SC.

[Schumikonen 2]

agreed. i also did not see any 'fernando knew it' on that.

Don't worry about it, Massa didn't see the spring but he is out of the season anyway meaning that even when he didn't see it the srping was still there like in this case.

[Max Mosley 2]

Sure.

The word KNOWING there functions as an adverb, not as a verb and thus does not call for a subject, but modifies the actual action ("to allow to overtake"). The subject in the phrase is "This" which, in this case, stands for "The strategy". So, the phrase actually means that The strategy would work for Alonso, as it would allow him to overtake as many cars as possible. It does not need Alonso's knowledge of the crash to make it work and it is not implied in the phrase. The strategy (according to Piquet's hintings) was devised between Flavio, Symmonds and Nelsinho.

(WARNING: I am trying to think in Spanish terms for my knowledge of English grammar is substandard, so maybe I got the terminology wrong, but the sense is the same)

Maybe one day you can explain it in terms we native speakers can understand. In fact as I was reading it all, I was wishing Kati and Tommy had argued in Spanish instead.

Ermm...actually, I am not sure he has nothing to do with that plan. All I am saying is that such knowledge was not implied anywhere in Piquet's statement. I didn't think Piquet's crash was on purpose for a start and here we are.

Alonso and Renault always bring out the serious side to you. Creo Alex y Tommy estan bromeando.

So far there is no evidence of Alonso's involvement - but here's hoping! It's quite possible Nando knew about it beforehand via a different meeting with Symonds. After all, he was on a strategy that he must surely have found very odd and asked questions about, and then he was even called in several laps earlier than planned. Alonso's involvement in strategy decisions is almost as famed as his fluid mechanics cough 6 tenths expertise and there must be a suspicion he knew something was fishy.

Further, for all that I mock his technical contributions, Alonso is an intelligent man who knows how F1 works. Given it looks increasingly likely there was foul play, even if he was never told, there must be a significant chance Alonso figured out what happened after the event - but well before now. He must even have been asked about the possibility by journalists after the race. Not reporting it to the FIA, and accepting the win, is still cheating and dishonest.

Regarding the team now, I suspect Flavio was involved along with Symonds. The thing with F1 is that the rule-makers are as corrupt as the teams, so who can possibly say what punishment will be meted out. If Piquet was acting with senior approval within the team, it is a very serious matter indeed. But it all depends on other considerations in practice. If Renault are penalised too much, will they leave the sport? Is Bernie better mates with Flavio than Ron? Will Flavio lend Max the use of a few spare super models?

As for young Piquet, I'm not sure he loses so much as everyone says. His career is over - imho his snitching will deter more teams than his cheating - but then his top-flight career was over long before now. He never got a fair chance at Renault and probably cares more about getting his own back on Flavio than a life in NASCAR.

Yeah, I have to admit, when I saw the 'statements' from Symonds & Flav, I started thinking that if they have done it, how many other times has it been done, by other teams too.

Don't worry. I was going to get to that point in due course!

[Jean Todt 4]

At least they didn't need a crane.

Atleast they didn't need to have a driver who would crash in order to save his seat!

[Schumikonen 2]

Don't worry, nobody in this forum sees the difference between a verb and an adverb but all of them know Alonso has nothing to do with that evil plan.

Yeah right, he didn't know, just tell how I knew he would say something like this? this is the tipical FA, everybody's to blame for every wrong thing, he blame, Renault, Mclaren, the mecanics, even me, everybody else is gilty but not him, if he is loosing don't blame him but you are his fan you act just like him, he didn't know enything, like I said in the beggining he found out in the press.

[Schumikonen 2]

Maybe one day you can explain it in terms we native speakers can understand. In fact as I was reading it all, I was wishing Kati and Tommy had argued in Spanish instead.

I didn't know Kati speak spanish.

[Max Mosley 2]

I didn't know Kati speak spanish.

I was just teasing, my friend. But yes she speaks it very well. With a lovely voice. Que tal, Tommy?

[Schumikonen 2]

As others have said, Piquet stands to lose just as much from this as Renault do, as far as I can tell. At the moment, the only person who stands to gain anything is one Nico Rosberg - who could well be awarded a first victory under very unusual circumstances.

I think the whole race should be canceled and those points eliminated and Massa should be the World Champion.

[Schumikonen 2]

I was just teasing, my friend. But yes she speaks it very well. With a lovely voice. Que tal, Tommy?

I can see that you are learning too.

[Schumikonen 2]

Further, for all that I mock his technical contributions, Alonso is an intelligent man who knows how F1 works. Given it looks increasingly likely there was foul play, even if he was never told, there must be a significant chance Alonso figured out what happened after the event - but well before now. He must even have been asked about the possibility by journalists after the race. Not reporting it to the FIA, and accepting the win, is still cheating and dishonest.

He is well used to this kind of behavior, he knew he was doing something dishonest at Mclaren but he only thought in getting the "secrets" to win races, at the end that is all he cares about winning races even if like in Mclaren he has to cheat, beacuse he cheated at Mclaren, he was testing Ferrari secrets and he knew about it all the time, like we all saw in the email between him and PDR talking about the tire fluid that Ferrari was using, so he is no saint and he is not know by rejecting any wrong doing and the final word is that he is a cheater and a liar.

[AleHop 0]

Alonso and Renault always bring out the serious side to you. Creo Alex y Tommy estan bromeando.

[Kati 0]

I didn't know Kati speak spanish.

Solo un poco. ^^

[Jean Todt 4]

Eventually they needed a crane for the plan. Look: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Z2hW420zkNg

Proves, Nando needs a weaker team mate or needs him to crash out in order to win a race....or needs his opponent's engines to blow up to win the world championship...

And he is wanted by none other than Ferrari!

[AleHop 0]

...he knew he was doing something dishonest at Mclaren but he only thought in getting the "secrets" to win races...

Yes, it was dishonest and he knew it. But he has to take a woman's bra if it's a Victoria's "Secrets" as it helps him win races. He can't help it!

And it was Dennis' wife at that time, you know?

Now you understand why he had such a bad time in McLaren.

...he was testing Ferrari secrets and he knew about it all the time...

No, it was Victoria's Secrets. I swear!

...like we all saw in the email between him and PDR talking about the tire fluid that Ferrari was using...

NOOOOOOOO!

Firstable the email was between PDLR and Alonso and not the other way round.

Thirdable it had nothing to do with Ferrari but with Victoria's Secrets!

Secondable it was not for tires, it was for a new padded bra design.

...so he is no saint and he is not know by rejecting any wrong doing and the final word is that he is a cheater and a liar.

He is no saint? And why I pray to Him every night, eh?

[Max Mosley 2]

He is well used to this kind of behavior, he knew he was doing something dishonest at Mclaren but he only thought in getting the "secrets" to win races, at the end that is all he cares about winning races even if like in Mclaren he has to cheat, beacuse he cheated at Mclaren, he was testing Ferrari secrets and he knew about it all the time, like we all saw in the email between him and PDR talking about the tire fluid that Ferrari was using, so he is no saint and he is not know by rejecting any wrong doing and the final word is that he is a cheater and a liar.

Indeed Tommy. It will be Alonso's finest hour if he can prove there was cheating in his team and he remained out of the fray. If only he had the emails to prove such a thing...

[AleHop 0]

My investigators at Quest have uncovered multiple irregularities in your Spanish. Note, if you will, that you are clearly making up words like 'nunca' and 'de' because they don't even end in an 'o'. Even Pabloh ends in an 'o' (when he bends over).

Btw I hate all those 'o' words in Spanish. I can't get that damn final 'o' sound right. Everything comes out like a posh person saying 'windowwwwww' in English.

Ok, you can change that final 'o' words in Spanish pero esto s

[Schumikonen 2]

Solo un poco. ^^

If you ask for the necessary permit from my wife I could teach you Lengua Espa