2 True Religions/Gods

[Persevere 0]

If we had the right calculator we might be able to come up with a total of the number of people killed in the name of religion over the last two thousand years (give or take). I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs for those individuals who keep such thoughts as a true means of inspiration; for those who truly care and who take a compassionate view of others. But organized religion, like big business, does not have an impressive track record. As for myself, well, I subscribe to the words of Groucho Marx: I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as one of it's members.

[yurp 0]

Oh good - a serious, idiological debate about religion.

huh?

no. you're an oxymoron!

[Kopite Girl 0]

Religion in any way, shape or form is a load of ****ing bollocks and should be outlawed throughout the world.

Religion killed six million Jews. Religion killed the capability to act and think for oneself. Religion has paedophiles dressed as men of the cloth.

Scrap it. All together. Sooner the better.

[AleHop 0]

Oh you rather killed any point you may have had there. Hypocrisy much?

Maybe I said religion when I wanted to say faith in something above us.

Religion killed six million Jews. Religion killed the capability to act and think for oneself. Religion has paedophiles dressed as men of the cloth.

Religion?

No, religion has never killed anybody. Neither atheism nor science. It's been always humans who have commited all the crimes. Humans full of intolerance, greed, hatred, selfishness, fear... And completely lack of wisdom.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Maybe I said religion when I wanted to say faith in something above us.

Religion?

No, religion has never killed anybody. Neither atheism nor science. It's been always humans who have commited all the crimes. Humans full of intolerance, greed, hatred, selfishness, fear... And completely lack of wisdom.

And what created Religion. Humans. So of course religion kills. Simple. There's no argument.

[AleHop 0]

And what created Religion. Humans. So of course religion kills. Simple. There's no argument.

You said religion killed 6 million Jews and you should explain what you meant. Do You think Jews were killed because of his own religion? Do you think Hitler was a religious person and because of that religion he killed 6 million Jews? Hitler only got on well with muslims, he only spoke well of Islam, but that doesn't mean he was muslim.

[Kopite Girl 0]

You said religion killed 6 million Jews and you should explain what you meant. Do You think Jews were killed because of his own religion? Do you think Hitler was a religious person and because of that religion he killed 6 million Jews? Hitler only got on well with muslims, he only spoke well of Islam, but that doesn't mean he was muslim.

If you read Mein Kampf, and happen to be a research historian (as am I) you'd know that Hitler was into religion in a MAJOR way. He wanted to obtain the Holy Grail, the Staff of Ra, the Holy sepulchre, and sent his nazi's after many treasured religious artefacts apparently scattered all over the world. He was obsessed with eternal life. The true goal of Hitler was to exterminate the Jews as a way of becoming closer to God. He wanted to rule the world. Become God's right hand. Its all well documented. People such as Himmler, Goebels, Hoess catered to this at face value to Hitler in order to fulfil their own sick fantasies.

I'm not being insensitive when I say this, but perhaps a little research yourself, you will see just how much of a religious nut Hitler was. The Swastika symbol itself was taken from Egyptian religion. Its name was hakenkreuz in German, translating to Hooked Cross. Even the SS symbol. Two bolts of lightning - the symbol of God casting down Lucifer into Hell.

The one thing I will not tolerate on any level is people denying the Holocaust.

Religion killed six million Jews. Fact.

[AutoRacer5 0]

Religion in any way, shape or form is a load of ****ing bollocks and should be outlawed throughout the world.

Religion killed six million Jews. Religion killed the capability to act and think for oneself. Religion has paedophiles dressed as men of the cloth.

Scrap it. All together. Sooner the better.

Never going to happen. You cannot ban belief systems. Besides, if you ban religion, you ban more than half of the world's charitable organizations. Think about it, the Red CROSS, SALVATION Army, the charities that help poor people.

Besides, not all priests are pedophiles. If anything, I'm willing to bet that some people that made allegations made them with the hopes that they get some money. Some teenage girls do the same thing with male teachers in high schools.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

Guys you need to celebrate New Year with less alcohol! Money is the true religion of the world: you can reach power, find company ( like Tiger Woods), have group sex, travel find very good scotch and champagne and the finest wines and run a F1 team (like Flavio)... and yes there is a lot of bad people making the worst things you can imagine in the name of whatever.

If you won

[Kopite Girl 0]

Never going to happen. You cannot ban belief systems. Besides, if you ban religion, you ban more than half of the world's charitable organizations. Think about it, the Red CROSS, SALVATION Army, the charities that help poor people.

Besides, not all priests are pedophiles. If anything, I'm willing to bet that some people that made allegations made them with the hopes that they get some money. Some teenage girls do the same thing with male teachers in high schools.

Course you can. Totally. If you want to believe, then nobody is stopping you. Doesn't mean to say you have to belong to a religious sect or group to do so. Many people do believe, but don't practice. They lead good lives, help people. That to me is belief in a higher being, not praying in some church or mosque etc.

Organisations like the Red Cross can still be run. Its called being humanitarian, not necessarily following religion.

[AutoRacer5 0]

Course you can. Totally. If you want to believe, then nobody is stopping you. Doesn't mean to say you have to belong to a religious sect or group to do so. Many people do believe, but don't practice. They lead good lives, help people. That to me is belief in a higher being, not praying in some church or mosque etc.

Organisations like the Red Cross can still be run. Its called being humanitarian, not necessarily following religion.

You can't ban belief systems. That would require mind control. Why do you want to take the freedom to worship away from people? Whatever happened to "live and let live"?

Religion can do good for the world. If it weren't for the Catholic Charities of New Orleans, my aunt would be living with us, and she's practically insane.

[Persevere 0]

This thread will have the same lifespan as most of my attempts to leave TF1 did: one day.

Carry on.

Eric: You underestimated the high level of emotion in many people when you discuss this subject, feelings that lie just beneath the epidermal layer. If you read through some of the postings you will feel the weight of members' convictions regardless of whether you agree or not. You and I live in a country in which millions of people have never successfully unbuckled the bible belt. We just endured 8 years worth of an administration that, while wrapping itself in the flag, marched forward with a rifle in one hand and a bible in the other, domestically and internationally, and attempted to lay waste to all those who disagreed. You should jump into this dialogue and provide us with your viewpoint: you're intelligent and you're young and I for one would like to hear from you.

[AleHop 0]

If you read Mein Kampf, and happen to be a research historian (as am I) you'd know that Hitler was into religion in a MAJOR way. He wanted to obtain the Holy Grail, the Staff of Ra, the Holy sepulchre, and sent his nazi's after many treasured religious artefacts apparently scattered all over the world. He was obsessed with eternal life. The true goal of Hitler was to exterminate the Jews as a way of becoming closer to God. He wanted to rule the world. Become God's right hand. Its all well documented. People such as Himmler, Goebels, Hoess catered to this at face value to Hitler in order to fulfil their own sick fantasies.

I'm not being insensitive when I say this, but perhaps a little research yourself, you will see just how much of a religious nut Hitler was. The Swastika symbol itself was taken from Egyptian religion. Its name was hakenkreuz in German, translating to Hooked Cross. Even the SS symbol. Two bolts of lightning - the symbol of God casting down Lucifer into Hell.

The one thing I will not tolerate on any level is people denying the Holocaust.

Religion killed six million Jews. Fact.

If that's what you meant in your previous post I think we use a different dictionary for those concepts. In my opinion Hitler was a hardcore fan of esotericism, in no way he was a religious person and he never showed a true belief in God. Many people in History have commited crimes in the name of Yahweh, God, Allah... when they were looking for money, power, land...

If God says love your neighbor like yourself and you ask God who is my neighbor? And God replies even your arch enemy is your neighbor. If God says forgive your neighbor and you ask God how many times? And God replies always. How can we blame God for our crimes? We have many good things just because of those words but most of us are not up to the task. If I could ask for something in my life I would ask for a rock-solid faith in God but unfortunately money, health or happiness would come to my mind first.

[lewisthegreat2 0]

And what created Religion. Humans. So of course religion kills. Simple. There's no argument.

Can religion really kill? I don't think a concept can kill. How people interpret that concept can lead to beliefs and thoughts that can lead to actions. Humans kill. Sometimes, they are influenced how they interpret religion, but not by religion itself. To say any major religion promotes killing is pretty silly as far as I know. The humans made religion bad. The humans made religion promote an agenda and promote not-so-great actions. The humans used God or whomever to justify their actions, to put their own beliefs, their own words into His mouth to give them a reason to do what they do/did. The only promotion of killing in religion came from the people who did the killing, not the religious concepts itself. It wasn't there until they were.

To say religion as a whole kills, and to say religion as a whole needs to be banned...I just think that's a bit drastic. I personally am not religious, and I really don't like organized religion: if you're going to have religion, let it be about yourself and God, and no one else. You can't just ban it. You can't just tell people "hey, you can't do that." You're taking someone's beliefs away. To many, you'd be taking a large part of their lives away. You'd be using your lack of a religion to justify ruining someone's life, much like people use their religion to justify doing the same. And that would make having no religion any better?

It wouldn't; it'd just be more of the same. Religion didn't corrupt people. People corrupted religion.

I'm not sure how you ban the abuse of religion, but that's the issue, not religion itself. Religion can and should be used for good. I do think that, as a whole, it really is. The people who abuse it just abuse it in such a way that it gets a lot more attention. No one wants to hear about good people doing good things. We want death and controversy and corruption and war!!!! It's soooo fascinating!!!!!

Besides, I think if you eliminated religion, people would still do evil. They'd find new excuses. You learn hate from someone else, not from religion, and there will always be that someone else to come up with a new excuse and keep passing it on. People would start to hate based on nationality, gender, appearance...they'd just keep on hating because they'd be told to hate by someone.

Eric: You underestimated the high level of emotion in many people when you discuss this subject, feelings that lie just beneath the epidermal layer. If you read through some of the postings you will feel the weight of members' convictions regardless of whether you agree or not. You and I live in a country in which millions of people have never successfully unbuckled the bible belt. We just endured 8 years worth of an administration that, while wrapping itself in the flag, marched forward with a rifle in one hand and a bible in the other, domestically and internationally, and attempted to lay waste to all those who disagreed. You should jump into this dialogue and provide us with your viewpoint: you're intelligent and you're young and I for one would like to hear from you.

Actually, I meant more along the lines of "this is going to get ugly and the topic will go bye-bye." It didn't (at least not yet). It certainly has the potential to, like any other topic about religion. They always go south.

The same reason the Yanks never unbuckled the Bible belt is, of course, the same reason some religious people use religion to justify evil actions. They were told not to. They were told they were mean bad nasty commies if they didn't say "under God" in the pledge so hey, there it is. God loves America, God is American, God drives a Ford F-250 and wears a cowboy hat and has a gun and by spreading Democracy and liberating the people from those mean bad nasty guys, we're spreading God, because God is, of course, a big fan of government for the people (in charge), by the people (in charge). It's the same thing. People made God whatever they wanted Him to be and were told they had to follow Him or else they weren't American or whatever God represented. Same reason people use religion to kill. Same reason people use religion for good, too.

Ralph Waldo Emerson got it. If you kept religion personal, private, just you and God...none of this crap would happen. You could believe that "God told me to go kill some bad meanies today," but guess what, chances are you won't do it unless you know other people feel the same way. If you just think you're the only one who was ever told that by God, you'd think something was wrong with you, that you were a sick individual, and you'd probably be too afraid to do it and just ignore it. And I doubt anyone would ever think that God would say that to them, honestly...people only think it now because someone else told them to think it.

But no.

People have to start big old groups and discuss their religious views, and instead of discussing religion, they actually discuss their little agendas and just say "God said this" before it and what do you know...no one's going to dispute the word of God!

There's no way to fix it, but it's certainly the humans' fault, not the concept of having religion itself.

[Kopite Girl 0]

You can't ban belief systems. That would require mind control. Why do you want to take the freedom to worship away from people? Whatever happened to "live and let live"?

Religion can do good for the world. If it weren't for the Catholic Charities of New Orleans, my aunt would be living with us, and she's practically insane.

Religion took away the freedom of people to think in the first place. It is a form of mind control. I truly believe you are more free believing what you believe whether you be at work, shopping, taking a shower, feeding your kids. Rather than follow a sect that demands certain rituals and acts to be carried out in order for you to be accepted. Chris, I totally respect you but I beg to differ. Nothing will change my stubborn mind.

See. With religion I'm on early parole. It and I did not mix. Thats just something in my head, and my beliefs. I do respect yours however. Just disagree.

I went to a convent school for the first 2 years of senior or what you call High School. I did nothing but fight and argue with the nuns and the other girls. I got sent to an all boys school and had the best years of my education. No religion. No oppression. Thats just me.

[lewisthegreat2 0]

Rather than follow a sect that demands certain rituals and acts to be carried out in order for you to be accepted.

It makes me wonder why people feel the need to make religion more than a belief in X higher power. Believing in God doesn't require you to do anything but believe in Him (and I'm not saying anyone should or that I do or that I don't or that it's right or that it's wrong). The rest of the crap...isn't God if you choose to believe there is God, it's just humans.

I realize it's unrealstic to expect people to just not participate in organized religion and just stick to personalized religion, but it would really help bring religion back to religion and not whatever the bad side of it is.

Religion in general, though...I wouldn't call mind control as you do. It only is if you let it be, if you choose to believe everything you're told. Your beliefs have to come from somewhere, so no matter what you believe, you learned it from something, so you could really argue being "free-thinking" is mind control, too, if being religious is. You can't be entirely free-thinking because you'll never know how to explore every aspect of life unless someone tells you how.

To me, mind control is just blindly listening to someone else and never questioning. It's a massive generalization to say all religious people are like that. The ones who are just so happen to be a lot more vocal and a lot more controversial and a lot more public.

[Argento Reloaded 1]

To me, mind control is just blindly listening to someone else and never questioning. It's a massive generalization to say all religious people are like that. The ones who are just so happen to be a lot more vocal and a lot more controversial and a lot more public.

And that

[AutoRacer5 0]

Religion took away the freedom of people to think in the first place.

Apples are tasty. That's a thought. I thought it of my own free will. Religion didn't take that away from me.

It is a form of mind control.

Only for those who follow it to the letter of the law for every single thing. I still haven't gone to any services since I've been in college.

I truly believe you are more free believing what you believe whether you be at work, shopping, taking a shower, feeding your kids. Rather than follow a sect that demands certain rituals and acts to be carried out in order for you to be accepted. Chris, I totally respect you but I beg to differ. Nothing will change my stubborn mind.

So you'd still try to ban all religion anyway given the example I did with the Catholic Charities? You always seem to focus on the negative aspects of religion, instead of any positives whatsoever.

See. With religion I'm on early parole. It and I did not mix. Thats just something in my head, and my beliefs. I do respect yours however. Just disagree.

You said earlier that we should ban all religion. Now you say you respect mine?

Which is it?

I went to a convent school for the first 2 years of senior or what you call High School. I did nothing but fight and argue with the nuns and the other girls. I got sent to an all boys school and had the best years of my education. No religion. No oppression. Thats just me.

I went to a Catholic based high school from 8th-12th grade. It was an ok experience. No priests taught, and I never had any experiences with nuns. You were dealing with teenage girls. Lets be honest, many of them aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

To say religion is oppression isn't necessarily the truth. Islam could be considered oppressive. I don't think many far east religions can claim the same thing, though.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Take for example Catholicism.

Lies from day one. Stole the pagan celebration for winter, turned it into Christmas. Burned innocent women at the stake and so forth.

I have an ancestor who was Knights Templar. He fought for his beliefs, and followed a strict christian/catholic regime. He was murdered for his troubles. Trouble for 'keeping the secrets of Christ' from the hands of the wrong people.

I'm not denying God. I don't know myself what I believe. Let me tell you this - it was not 'teenage girls' I was dealing with. They were fanatics. If I didn't read aloud during prayer, I'd get dirty looks and cold hearted comments. You tell me, where is the positive in that? Catholicism suggests that 'love thy neighbour' is a really really big fundamental rule. Bollocks.

I will never see the positive in religion. Ever. And as I said to you before Chris, anybody who is a true humanitarian can work for charity. I have done so myself. It doesn't mean I have to join a church and follow a religion for me to do so.

Real belief starts in your heart. If you choose to celebrate your belief with others, then fantastic. But why class it as religion?

If God exists, he says we are equal. Tell me what the point is of having multi-religions if we are all the same. Why not become what He truly wants us to be? Strong of mind, strength of character and respect, compassion and love for everybody, whether they be catholic, protestant (do not get me started on the religious war in Ireland!!), muslim, buddhist, jewish, athiest, sikh, etc. So many contradictions.

Its an oppressive way to keep us in check. Well, f*ck that. I'm not part of the masses and I never will be.

[HandyNZL 1]

Take for example Catholicism.

Lies from day one. Stole the pagan celebration for winter, turned it into Christmas. Burned innocent women at the stake and so forth.

I have an ancestor who was Knights Templar. He fought for his beliefs, and followed a strict christian/catholic regime. He was murdered for his troubles. Trouble for 'keeping the secrets of Christ' from the hands of the wrong people.

I'm not denying God. I don't know myself what I believe. Let me tell you this - it was not 'teenage girls' I was dealing with. They were fanatics. If I didn't read aloud during prayer, I'd get dirty looks and cold hearted comments. You tell me, where is the positive in that? Catholicism suggests that 'love thy neighbour' is a really really big fundamental rule. Bollocks.

I will never see the positive in religion. Ever. And as I said to you before Chris, anybody who is a true humanitarian can work for charity. I have done so myself. It doesn't mean I have to join a church and follow a religion for me to do so.

Real belief starts in your heart. If you choose to celebrate your belief with others, then fantastic. But why class it as religion?

If God exists, he says we are equal. Tell me what the point is of having multi-religions if we are all the same. Why not become what He truly wants us to be? Strong of mind, strength of character and respect, compassion and love for everybody, whether they be catholic, protestant (do not get me started on the religious war in Ireland!!), muslim, buddhist, jewish, athiest, sikh, etc. So many contradictions.

Its an oppressive way to keep us in check. Well, f*ck that. I'm not part of the masses and I never will be.

Whilst i have had less experience with teenage girls than yourself there Steph...gotta say I agree. Carry on

[HandyNZL 1]

PS Your arguments thus far, far outweigh autoracers dribble....

[AutoRacer5 0]

Take for example Catholicism.

Lies from day one. Stole the pagan celebration for winter, turned it into Christmas. Burned innocent women at the stake and so forth.

I have an ancestor who was Knights Templar. He fought for his beliefs, and followed a strict christian/catholic regime. He was murdered for his troubles. Trouble for 'keeping the secrets of Christ' from the hands of the wrong people.

Don't forget that the cross is also technically a pagan symbol. As for your ancestor, very interesting.

I'm not denying God. I don't know myself what I believe. Let me tell you this - it was not 'teenage girls' I was dealing with. They were fanatics. If I didn't read aloud during prayer, I'd get dirty looks and cold hearted comments. You tell me, where is the positive in that? Catholicism suggests that 'love thy neighbour' is a really really big fundamental rule. Bollocks.

There isn't positive in it because they were ignorant to the fact that some people have different thoughts than they do. Fanatics of any religion aren't a good thing. As for 'love thy neighbor', not everyone follows it. More people should, though. We might not have as many problems if they did.

I will never see the positive in religion. Ever. And as I said to you before Chris, anybody who is a true humanitarian can work for charity. I have done so myself. It doesn't mean I have to join a church and follow a religion for me to do so.

Never see the positive in religion? Are you then becoming a fanatic, the type of girl that you hated back in grade school?

I never said you had to join a religion or church to work for charity. I'm saying is that many religions have done positive work through charities, but, you seem to ignore it because there isn't any positives to religion, according to you.

Real belief starts in your heart. If you choose to celebrate your belief with others, then fantastic. But why class it as religion?

re⋅li⋅gion  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/

[AutoRacer5 0]

PS Your arguments thus far, far outweigh autoracers dribble....

[HandyNZL 1]

Phwoar...he's sexy!!

[AutoRacer5 0]

Phwoar...he's sexy!!

He died from AIDS in 1989.

GJ.