Super Cool United Britainland Grand Preeeee.

[AleHop 0]

You do know there's three other race stewards that do change every race?

Just asking...

Yes, so it is like just one main referee and they change the linesman and the assistant referee every race.

World Cup Semifinal. Germany - England. The referee is German or English, he's a good guy but... He wants to be able to return to the country he loves and live peacefully. Even if things could work out fine in the match that system is far from perfect.

[HandyNZL 1]

But Charlie doesn't do the penalties....he administers the start and the SC etc. He's like the prosecutor and the other four are the jury for want of an anology

[wapi 4]

But Charlie doesn't do the penalties....he administers the start and the SC etc. He's like the prosecutor and the other four are the jury for want of an anology

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/gbr-document-52.pdf

Look at the document beginning, there is phrase: "The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, have considered the following matter, determine a

breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor named below and impose the penalty referred to."

Same phrase is on the beginning of every decision by the Stewards. So there is no penalty unless Charlie reports something. If he chooses not to report there will be no penalty regardless of the incident.

[Jean Todt 4]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/238909/whiting-we-warned-ferrari-three-times/

stop bleating....

[Autumnpuma 0]

Would you believe me if I told you that I disagree with you?

I think it was fair and consistent with similar actions in the past. Other factors worsened it but that's life.

I tend to look at each situation on it's own merits.

(in reponse to monsieur puma of the fall) I think you'll find the Ferrari were told straight away to give back the spot as soon as it happened, but ignored three requests from Charlie to do so. Therefore and hitherto the penalty was just and deserved.

The SC was just bad luck, again.

Hadn't heard that bit. If they ignored the stewards then the penalty was just.

[monza gorilla 1]

Yep. That's apparently the case. So only themselves to blame.

[maure 1]

Yep. That's apparently the case. So only themselves to blame.

You should know better.

Even among these goofs, there are disagreements over what specific role Withing has. So Withing _may_ have said whatever (or not) to Ferrari and it still means sht.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Yep. That's apparently the case. So only themselves to blame.

Indeedy.

You should know better.

Even among these goofs, there are disagreements over what specific role Withing has. So Withing _may_ have said whatever (or not) to Ferrari and it still means sht.

I see where you're coming from with this. Yes, Whiting has no specific power to establish a penalty before the stewards, but he remains the race director and it's his counsel the race stewards will hear when deciding these things and his thoughts (rightly so, I think) go very far with the stewards.

[wapi 4]

Indeedy.

I see where you're coming from with this. Yes, Whiting has no specific power to establish a penalty before the stewards, but he remains the race director and it's his counsel the race stewards will hear when deciding these things and his thoughts (rightly so, I think) go very far with the stewards.

As I said above: stewards sit in the dark room until Charlie turns on the light. If Charlie does not report, stewards do not act. So if Ferrari listened to Charlie, he would not report them to stewards, so there would be no punishment.

So, you better be damn sure what you are doing if you are not going to take Charlie's advice. Being Ferrari team manager one should know it.

[AleHop 0]

(in reponse to monsieur puma of the fall) I think you'll find the Ferrari were told straight away to give back the spot as soon as it happened, but ignored three requests from Charlie to do so. Therefore and hitherto the penalty was just and deserved.

The SC was just bad luck, again.

Ferrari 'not asked' to let Kubica pass

By Jonathan Noble and Michele LostiaFriday, July 16th 2010, 17:44 GMT

Ferrari was not given an immediate order by the FIA for Fernando Alonso to give back his position to Robert Kubica at Silverstone, according to newly-published information relating to the pit wall radio conversations that took place during the British Grand Prix.

FIA race director Charlie Whiting told Italian magazine Autosprint earlier this week that he advised Ferrari straight away to let Kubica retake his position from Alonso.

However, according to a detailed report in Gazzetta dello Sport today, the team's version of events is very different.

Massimo Rivola, Ferrari's team manager, told the newspaper: "This is not polemics, these are elements to clarify why Ferrari made certain decisions and the logic behind them, after Alonso's move on Kubica."

According to Gazzetta dello Sport, this is the chronology of the events from Ferrari's perspective.

13:31:05 The overtaking move takes place at Club and after one second Rivola calls Whiting, who replies after 11 seconds. Rivola asks: 'Have you seen the pass? In our opinion there was no room to overtake.'

26 secs after the pass, Whiting asks to be given time to watch the TV footage.

13:33 Ferrari makes a second radio call - 1m55s after the pass. Alonso has completed another lap plus one sector, and is behind Nico Rosberg and Jaime Alguersuari, while Kubica drops further back.

Whiting tells Ferrari that the stewards think Alonso could give the position back. Rivola asks: 'Is this the decision?'

Whiting replies: 'No, but that's how we see it.'

Rivola informs the team while Rosberg overtakes Alguersuari. On the GPS screen that shows the position of the cars, Ferrari sees Kubica dropping further back. Meanwhile, Alonso overtakes Alguersuari at Turn 2.

13:33:22 Ferrari makes a third radio call.

Rivola tells Whiting: 'Alonso doesn't have only Kubica behind. He would have to concede two positions now.'

While they discuss the matter Kubica is overtaken by Barrichello so Alonso would have to now give up three positions.

Whiting replies: 'We have given you the chance to do it or not. Things being this way, the stewards will hear the drivers at the end of the race, but I understand your position.'

13:35:30 Kubica stops so Alonso can no longer give the position back.

13:45:31 The stewards investigate the Alonso/Kubica incident. The monitors then display 'car number 8 under investigation', 14m26s after the pass.

13:46:26 Just 55 seconds later the stewards decide that Alonso should have a drive-through penalty.

The farce can still get bigger.

[Rainmaster 7]

"13:33 Ferrari makes a second radio call - 1m55s after the pass. Alonso has completed another lap plus one sector, and is behind Nico Rosberg and Jaime Alguersuari, while Kubica drops further back.

Whiting tells Ferrari that the stewards think Alonso could give the position back. Rivola asks: 'Is this the decision?'

Whiting replies: 'No, but that's how we see it.'

Rivola informs the team while Rosberg overtakes Alguersuari. On the GPS screen that shows the position of the cars, Ferrari sees Kubica dropping further back. Meanwhile, Alonso overtakes Alguersuari at Turn 2.

13:33:22 Ferrari makes a third radio call.

Rivola tells Whiting: 'Alonso doesn't have only Kubica behind. He would have to concede two positions now.'

While they discuss the matter Kubica is overtaken by Barrichello so Alonso would have to now give up three positions.

Whiting replies: 'We have given you the chance to do it or not. Things being this way, the stewards will hear the drivers at the end of the race, but I understand your position.' "

****************************************************************

So Ferrari were told that it would be smart to give the position back, even according to them. However, they didn't tell Alonso to do it, they chanced it and paid the price. Less nonsense about this, please.. on this occasion the incompetence lies solely with Ferrari .

[wapi 4]

Problem is this: if Stewards make decision thenit must be from the catalog of allowable decisions "give position back" is not one of them. So Whiting was not able to have DECISION, they had suggestion. It is extremely unwise not to take suggestion from Charlie/stewards on the matter that there is no posibility to appeal.

They tried to imitate McM but it blew into their face. You have to be master to imitate another master.

ALso, why it took them 14 seconds to call Charlie. They should have done it 2.5 seconds later.

Whoever watched 2007, or 2008 season has seen a lot of such things, and all were handled in the same manner. No one was allowed to cut and pass regardless how he got into cutting position, so...

[AleHop 0]

So Ferrari were told that it would be smart to give the position back, even according to them. However, they didn't tell Alonso to do it, they chanced it and paid the price. Less nonsense about this, please.. on this occasion the incompetence lies solely with Ferrari .

Less nonsense about this?

Charlie Whiting: "We told Ferrari three times that in my opinion they should give the position back to Kubica," Whiting was quoted as saying by Autosprint magazine.

"And we told them that immediately, right after the overtaking manoeuvre. On the radio, I suggested to them that if they exchange position again, there would be no need for the stewards to intervene.

This is not a driver lying, this is Race Director.

Whiting replies: 'We have given you the chance to do it or not. Things being this way, the stewards will hear the drivers at the end of the race, but I understand your position.'

But Charlie should have told them that the stewards would investigate it during the race to likely penalise them with a drive through straight away. You just need to read both articles entirely to reaslise a few things don't match.

Ferrari was advised to let Kubica through

Ferrari 'not asked' to let Kubica pass

Less nonsense... I wish!!! On this occasion the incompetence lies again on those who inconsistently and ackwardly apply the rules. I imagine Ferrari can provide the radio transcripts so Whiting is keeping unusually quiet.

[wapi 4]

AleHop,

I understand your urge to defend Alonso. I am Ferrari fan myself. But, in this case there is nothing to be defended. Alonso should have known (being around for many years) that he should give back position. If not Alonso Ferrari pitwall should have known that. They went into completely unnecessary discussions with Charlie hoping that punishment if any would come too late to mean anything...

Also, Charlie advised them to give back position. They did not take good advice from experienced race director so they paid price.

It is clear that Alonso, Rivoli and Domenicali did not earn their paycheck for the Silverstone race. If I were LCdM, I would fire Domenicali, send Rivoli to help guard the gate to the factory in Modena, and warn Alonso that he is paid enough to be bothered to read rulebook.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Fernando and Ferrari both know how quick stewards are to impose penalties for the slightest of infringements, so the sensible thing to do would have been to just let RK past.

I must admit I am on 1 of several who take amusement and delight at Alonso's misfortunes. He is, and always has been, F1's biggest breast

[AleHop 0]

AleHop,

I understand your urge to defend Alonso. I am Ferrari fan myself. But, in this case there is nothing to be defended. Alonso should have known (being around for many years) that he should give back position. If not Alonso Ferrari pitwall should have known that. They went into completely unnecessary discussions with Charlie hoping that punishment if any would come too late to mean anything...

Also, Charlie advised them to give back position. They did not take good advice from experienced race director so they paid price.

It is clear that Alonso, Rivoli and Domenicali did not earn their paycheck for the Silverstone race. If I were LCdM, I would fire Domenicali, send Rivoli to help guard the gate to the factory in Modena, and warn Alonso that he is paid enough to be bothered to read rulebook.

Problem is Whiting didn't tell Ferrari to give position back to Kubica so clearly and for sure he didn't say it immediately after the overtaking manouvre. He suggested it would be investigated after the race when Kubica was already having transmission problems. I'm not trying to defend Alonso on that, nor Ferrari, but it was 'funny' that Whiting said he advised Ferrari immediately and then you read the radio conversations and it was false.

[Autumnpuma 0]

This is typical Ferrari and it goes back very far indeed. Instead of simply saying to Whiting 'Alright, we'll give the position back' as was probably the right thing to do, they stuck by the rules and waited for the penalty to officially come down from the stewards. Ferrari have always done this and they shouldn't complain when the rules come back to bite them on their collective arse.

[wapi 4]

Apology:

In some article quoting transcripting between Ferrari and Charlie said "14 seconds later Rivoli calls Charlie". That was obviously typo that made part of my conclusions wrong but did not change overall picture that those guys (c#ckpit and pitwall) are paid enough to bother reading rules of the game.

[AleHop 0]

Apology:

In some article quoting transcripting between Ferrari and Charlie said "14 seconds later Rivoli calls Charlie". That was obviously typo that made part of my conclusions wrong but did not change overall picture that those guys (c#ckpit and pitwall) are paid enough to bother reading rules of the game.

Ferrari should have given the position back to Kubica immediately, and Whiting should have told them to give the position back immediately, right? Is Whiting paid enough to bother reading the rules of the game?

It seems you can see Ferrari/Alonso did wrong and you agree with the penalty. Can you see nothing wrong on what Whiting told Ferrari on the radio about the stewards hearing the drivers after the race? Can you see nothing wrong about Whiting saying after the race he advised Ferrari immediately?

[wapi 4]

Ferrari should have given the position back to Kubica immediately, and Whiting should have told them to give the position back immediately, right? Is Whiting paid enough to bother reading the rules of the game?

It seems you can see Ferrari/Alonso did wrong and you agree with the penalty. Can you see nothing wrong on what Whiting told Ferrari on the radio about the stewards hearing the drivers after the race? Can you see nothing wrong about Whiting saying after the race he advised Ferrari immediately?

I see wrong on Whiting, but there should not have been any discussion with him. [somewhere I wrote that he should retire together with his old friend Bernie.]

I think it is wrong in the sport where cars travel at 300km/h to have discussion with race director, you do your decision and live with it. Decide and do not discuss with Whiting for at least 2 good reasons, you might not like conclusion of the discussion after too long discussion and you might draw attention to something that would otherwise be overlooked.

Any discussion with Race director is discussion with stewards through proxy of race director, so it will take some time for 4 people to voice their opinion and race director to relay it back... Also Stewards/Race director are not obliged to answer questions about rules during race. Whatever they say about penalties is unofficial. Stewards make simple official decisions: penalty or no penalty when official report have been forwarded to them by race director. If they decide "penalty" it has to be from the catalog of possible penalties; in that catalog there is no penalty "give position back".

And I can only reiterate that everyone watching race immediately new that Alonso would be penalized except Alonso and Ferrari ?!? I think that is disastrous incompetence in decision making for both driver and his pitwall support. I think you also new that he should give position back, but...

[Jean Todt 4]

"13:33 Ferrari makes a second radio call - 1m55s after the pass. Alonso has completed another lap plus one sector, and is behind Nico Rosberg and Jaime Alguersuari, while Kubica drops further back.

Whiting tells Ferrari that the stewards think Alonso could give the position back. Rivola asks: 'Is this the decision?'

Whiting replies: 'No, but that's how we see it.'

Rivola informs the team while Rosberg overtakes Alguersuari. On the GPS screen that shows the position of the cars, Ferrari sees Kubica dropping further back. Meanwhile, Alonso overtakes Alguersuari at Turn 2.

13:33:22 Ferrari makes a third radio call.

Rivola tells Whiting: 'Alonso doesn't have only Kubica behind. He would have to concede two positions now.'

While they discuss the matter Kubica is overtaken by Barrichello so Alonso would have to now give up three positions.

Whiting replies: 'We have given you the chance to do it or not. Things being this way, the stewards will hear the drivers at the end of the race, but I understand your position.' "

****************************************************************

So Ferrari were told that it would be smart to give the position back, even according to them. However, they didn't tell Alonso to do it, they chanced it and paid the price. Less nonsense about this, please.. on this occasion the incompetence lies solely with Ferrari .

Pity, some of his fans here would never admit that and blame their God's failure on someone else.......don't worry...they will post links after links, only to prove that they are wrong... ..I think one of them has already started doing it...

[AleHop 0]

Any discussion with Race director is discussion with stewards through proxy of race director, so it will take some time for 4 people to voice their opinion and race director to relay it back... Also Stewards/Race director are not obliged to answer questions about rules during race. Whatever they say about penalties is unofficial. Stewards make simple official decisions: penalty or no penalty when official report have been forwarded to them by race director. If they decide "penalty" it has to be from the catalog of possible penalties; in that catalog there is no penalty "give position back".

I would agree with you if Whiting had told Ferrari to make up their own decision but he just misguided them. Intentionally or incompetently? If it was the latter, it was perfect incompetence what screwed up their race.

And I can only reiterate that everyone watching race immediately new that Alonso would be penalized except Alonso and Ferrari ?!? I think that is disastrous incompetence in decision making for both driver and his pitwall support. I think you also new that he should give position back, but...

I didn't watch the race, I just watched a replay of the incident and I think it was risky not to give the position back to Kubica so I wasn't really surprised about the outcome of it until I read the radio conversation between Whiting and Ferrari once he had assured on the media that he advised them immediately to give the position back. The timing of the conversation, what Whiting told Ferrari on the radio, the SC, the stewards, the penalty... It was perfect bad luck, so to speak.

[wapi 4]

I would agree with you if Whiting had told Ferrari to make up their own decision but he just misguided them. Intentionally or incompetently? If it was the latter, it was perfect incompetence what screwed up their race.

I didn't watch the race, I just watched a replay of the incident and I think it was risky not to give the position back to Kubica so I wasn't really surprised about the outcome of it until I read the radio conversation between Whiting and Ferrari once he had assured on the media that he advised them immediately to give the position back. The timing of the conversation, what Whiting told Ferrari on the radio, the SC, the stewards, the penalty... It was perfect bad luck, so to speak.

Alonso should have decided by himself without talking to pitwall.

When Alonso delegated decision to pitwall the should have decided without talking to anyone else.

Ferrari has put themselves into position to be manipulated or handled incompetently. It was not mandatory, it was their choice. To many bad choices recently on that pitwall especially when something extraordinary happens. That is why I think Domenicali and possibly Rivali should be relieved of their duties.

[AleHop 0]

Alonso should have decided by himself without talking to pitwall.

When Alonso delegated decision to pitwall the should have decided without talking to anyone else.

Ferrari has put themselves into position to be manipulated or handled incompetently. It was not mandatory, it was their choice. To many bad choices recently on that pitwall especially when something extraordinary happens. That is why I think Domenicali and possibly Rivali should be relieved of their duties.

What a reply of yours!!!