Fernando Alonso

[BradSpeedMan 6]

While Button drove an F1 car for the whole season as if he was playing beginner mode in a PS2 version of F1 ...

Scary thing was Brawn still had a lot in reserve till half the season. You can't take it away from Button though, he did what HE HAd to do...

[Hector Troyano 0]

Let's not even go there... so much for a driver claimed to make no mistakes, this year has put a big dent in that reputation. Shows how easy he had it with a dominant car with illegal mass dampers

This season except for Webber I think Alonso made less mistakes than the other front runners...

And you can keep insisting on the supposed ability to improve the car or whatever, we're questioning his racing skills, if you have to account for that ability to make

a great driver I guess Kimi was useless...

[JHS 1]

I can only echo the thoughts of above. Clearly he's the best on the grid at the moment, I don't think he's the greatest, but he's not a million miles off either.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Oh great, so a couple of good races and now we can forget about his dismal error prone first half of the season and go back to the myth of him making no mistakes and resort to hyperbole.

He is a good driver, probably the third best on the grid right now, and also probably the biggest cheat in the history of the sport, confessed to industrial espionage and was involved in fixing races.

Spot on except for the race fixing. I don't believe he was involved in the Piquet Jr. Kerfluffle but I have no real proof to back that up . Alonso has moments of great driving and moment of not-so-great driving. He occasionally likes to shove a pass on the outside and try to cut to the inside on exit..this rarely works for him but he tries it at least two times per season and loses points each time. He isn't the best at calculating when to pit for tyres and overall race strategy seems to be beyond him. Aside from those bits (and the industrial espionage bit) he's the most well-rounded driver on the grid behind Mikey. Yes, I still think Mikey has all he ever had but that's another discussion.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I can only echo the thoughts of above. Clearly he's the best on the grid at the moment, I don't think he's the greatest, but he's not a million miles off either.

that's debatable

[HandyNZL 1]

Can he overtake a team mate going slower than him?

Just saying.

[JHS 1]

that's debatable

Knew somebody would come out with something like that.

[blackpebel 0]

Scary thing was Brawn still had a lot in reserve till half the season. You can't take it away from Button though, he did what HE HAd to do...

This reminds me of another one of your post's...

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Let's not even go there... so much for a driver claimed to make no mistakes, this year has put a big dent in that reputation. Shows how easy he had it with a dominant car with illegal mass dampers

Now what if i say ... You cant take it away from Alonso, he did what he had to do...

[blackpebel 0]

True. Not that I like it, I mean, we would LOVE to see the field square up equal. In a fantasy world I presume....

OR in A1 GP perhaps,,,,,, If it ever comes back that is... Are you listening Mr. Shaikh Kalid bin-makhtoum...bin-opening championships,, bin-getting losses,,bin- saying 'Oh WTF lets close down the championship coz im screwed',,,

Respect, I wont disagree with you completely on this brad i too would like to see such a race, but in some other racing series maybe, not in F1, thats not the F1 I have grown up watching. I wont like to see F1 having 20 odd cars Copy-pasted on the starting line up...

Thats not F1

[blackpebel 0]

that's debatable

The debate is, exactly what this thread is about... If I'm not wrong.

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Knew somebody would come out with something like that.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Now what if i say ... You cant take it away from Alonso, he did what he had to do...

and inherited some wins along the way to championships..

[BradSpeedMan 6]

The debate is, exactly what this thread is about... If I'm not wrong.

listen and read carefully.

JHS made a statement and is convinced he (Alonso) is the best on the grid at the moment.

This thread is about Alonso being the greatest of all F1 driver's. or not.

There's a big difference there. Can u see it?

[Eric 0]

Knew somebody would come out with something like that.

How is it an unwarranted comment?

There's no widely agreed upon system of defining "the best driver on the grid." It's all opinion; therefore, it is up for debate, and Brad is totally justified in saying it is debatable. You state an opinion, Brad says the comment is debatable. Fair deal to me.

My opinion of Alonso: he was at his best in 2005 and 2006, but is not at that level anymore. He's certainly among the best on the grid right now, but I don't think he's quite the best. There's just a mental aspect that he seems to lack, and when he's unchallenged by his teammates, it disappears, but when his teammates bring it on, he can lose his focus and make mistakes (as he did in 2007, and as he did earlier this year when Massa was the WDC leader). They aren't terrible mistakes, but significant and frequent enough for me to believe he's not the best out there right now.

[Delta 0]

and inherited some wins along the way to championships..

If it wasn't for the 2 wins that Kimi inherited, from Hamilton in China, and from Massa in brazil, he wouldn't have won the 2007 title. Lewis and Massa fed from each other's mistakes in 2008, Button took advantages of Red Bull's unreliability and vettel errors in 2009, Ferrari and McLaren are only still in this year's title hunt because of Red Bull's initial problems with reliability. Every driver rides their luck to some extent on the way to a drivers championship but it's rare for the best performer over the course of a season not to end up taking the title.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

If it wasn't for the 2 wins that Kimi inherited, from Hamilton in China, and from Massa in brazil, he wouldn't have won the 2007 title. Lewis and Massa fed from each other's mistakes in 2008, Button took advantages of Red Bull's unreliability and vettel errors in 2009, Ferrari and McLaren are only still in this year's title hunt because of Red Bull's initial problems with reliability. Every driver rides their luck to some extent on the way to a drivers championship but it's rare for the best performer over the course of a season not to end up taking the title.

It was very rare 2005 indeed. Kimi won all the prestigious driver of the year awards. Do yourself a favour and look it up. We all know that if it was'nt for unreliability it would've been his 2nd title. Call me a bitter Kimi fan but thats the way it is. Unfortunately, came 2006, Schumie was the driver who impressed me the most during the season. See the quarrel I have with Alonso, the best performer did'nt win the title!

oh, and let's remember, who said Kimi was'nt going to win those races.

[blackpebel 0]

JHS made a statement and is convinced he (Alonso) is the best on the grid at the moment.

This thread is about Alonso being the greatest of all F1 driver's. or not.

There's a big difference there. Can u see it?

There's no widely agreed upon system of defining "the best driver on the grid." It's all opinion; therefore, it is up for debate, and Brad is totally justified in saying it is debatable.

Hmmm.. get your point...

[blackpebel 0]

See the quarrel I have with Alonso, the best performer did'nt win the title!

Ehhem... I would consider this as your personal opinion..

But seriously, whom do you consider should have won? christian albers, yamamoto, tigo montero.

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Sorry brad, i know you think that micheal should have won, but that does not mean that alonso was not the best of performers that year... It is because he was performing good that he made himself worthy of it, he fought for it till the end... and won it coz he deserved to win it... Just like any one else who has ever deserved to...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Ehhem... I would consider this as your personal opinion..

Sorry brad, i know you think that micheal should have won, but that does not mean that alonso was not the best of performers that year... It is because he was performing good that he made himself worthy of it, he fought for it till the end... and won it coz he deserved to win it... Just like any one else who has ever deserved to...

correct. personal opinion.

I'm willing to consider Alonso a worthy contender for 2006, alongside Michael. What do you think of 2005. Did the best "performer" win?

[Delta 0]

It was very rare 2005 indeed. Kimi won all the prestigious driver of the year awards. Do yourself a favour and look it up. We all know that if it was'nt for unreliability it would've been his 2nd title. Call me a bitter Kimi fan but thats the way it is. Unfortunately, came 2006, Schumie was the driver who impressed me the most during the season. See the quarrel I have with Alonso, the best performer did'nt win the title!

oh, and let's remember, who said Kimi was'nt going to win those races.

He also made more errors than Alonso in 2005. The mistakes in quali in Belgium, and Brazil, the flatspot that caused his retirement from the German GP. Mechanical failures are a part of the sport, but you don't win championships by driving slow. Besides, I could flip that argument on its head and say that even if Kimi had won it would only have been because he had far superior equipment. You can misrepresent things to suit whatever argument you like, but ultimately the fact is that Alonso's name is on the crown not Raikkonen's and that is how history will remember it. Same with Michael in 2006, he made far more mistakes than Alonso, the 2006 title was definitely merited.

[blackpebel 0]

I'm willing to consider Alonso a worthy contender for 2006, alongside Michael. What do you think of 2005. Did the best "performer" win?

He also made more errors than Alonso in 2005. The mistakes in quali in Belgium, and Brazil, the flatspot that caused his retirement from the German GP. Mechanical failures are a part of the sport, but you don't win championships by driving slow. Besides, I could flip that argument on its head and say that even if Kimi had won it would only have been because he had far superior equipment. You can misrepresent things to suit whatever argument you like, but ultimately the fact is that Alonso's name is on the crown not Raikkonen's and that is how history will remember it. Same with Michael in 2006, he made far more mistakes than Alonso, the 2006 title was definitely merited.

To add to what delta said in the above post....

The championship was wrapped up in Brazil not only because of his amazing, but also because of his consistent performance throughout the year. (That's what I personally like about the guy, persistent controlled aggression) And at that point(Brazil) he was still a win short of Kimi. Im sure, that even if we are to run calculations with the current point system(Which favors win's), Fernando will still stand out to be the winner.

So to answer your following question...

Did the best "performer" win?

Absolutely!!!

The Best performer won, he won it deservingly,, and he won it by a mile...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

He also made more errors than Alonso in 2005. The mistakes in quali in Belgium, and Brazil, the flatspot that caused his retirement from the German GP. Mechanical failures are a part of the sport, but you don't win championships by driving slow. Besides, I could flip that argument on its head and say that even if Kimi had won it would only have been because he had far superior equipment. You can misrepresent things to suit whatever argument you like, but ultimately the fact is that Alonso's name is on the crown not Raikkonen's and that is how history will remember it. Same with Michael in 2006, he made far more mistakes than Alonso, the 2006 title was definitely merited.

The flatspot was about the only error he made that year.

He did win in Belgium did'nt he?

We could go on and on but as you say, it's Alonso's name on the crown.

[Max Mosley 2]

I wasn't too keen to stay around this thread as it is obvious that he is not the greatest of all times, and it is also obvious that he is among the great ones. There is not much else to add except for the few jibes and sneering remarks, and even those were done only half heartedly. Geez, Brad and Cav are out of touch, we have been doing a much better work at this in the Kimi thread, and lets face it: Kimi is so much harder to be mocked

Now, to the matters in hand: except you, nobody seem too troubled to establish who is unarguably the best of the best. If any, this season is helping us understand how intimately interconnected are all variables in a succesful career. Schumi is a walking proof as he is now probably one of the worst drivers on the grid, compared to his teammate. Actually, any defense we can think of him would be the same that was used with Barrichello in their glory days and dismissed as well. For example, that the car suit his team mate better. Remember when we used to say that to explain RB's performance differences with MSC? And the reply usually was "A great driver should also know how to make the team work for you" or "A great driver should perform even if the car is not the ideal for him". A case of Karma, perhaps? In any case, nobody can deny MSC's talents. But we can more accurately realize how much of his invencibility came from a killer combination of his own skills, his team skills, his car, and the whole interaction between all these variables.

F1 is a collective sport. We need to accept it.

Oh...about Nando? Oh well, I cannot dismiss this opportunity to highlight something that has been highlighted everywhere else but here: first Grand Chelem in 6 years. For those who don't read other resources: a Grand Chelem is F1's version of a Grand Slam: pole, fastest lap and win without losing the lead the whole race. If you never heard about it is because the last one was achieved by MSC in the massively superior F2004...not that easy to sustain such superiority during a whole weekend, even in a track and with rules that do not encourage overtaking. We've had those for quite a few years now and cars with a more obvious superiority in the field (Brawn, RBR) and yet none of them could pull a Grand Chelem. Not that it matters that much, anyways, but it still is a hint that you are in front fo a great team/driver combination, at least for the weekend.

One final word: Alonso is also considered the best driver in the current field by most of the commentators, whether they like him or hate him and (as seen in a survey not too long ago) also by current and former F1 drivers. Nominations of Di Grassi for that same honor were suspiciously low so I tend to believe that there is more than my own bias speaking when I consider Alonso one of the greatest of all times (Top 10)

PS: Muzza, this one's for you: have you seen the Ron Dennis interview on the BBC? From what I could read, it seems to have risen some controversy on the fact that he was rather dismissive of Jenson in favor of Lewis (a light version of "We were racing Nando"). But I could not find any transcript of it, only reactions. Coulthard also said that he is not surprised because it was the same in his time. What did he say to rise such controversy?

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Actually I've not seen that interview - maybe I've not been paying attention to F1 news or perhaps the British press doesn't report anything bad about Ron Dennis! (Of course I will look for it, but tbh I think we all know Jenson isn't even as good as Nando!)

I disagree with you about having to accept anything about F1. You sound like a commie conservative b#####d when it comes to sport - whatever happened to progressive change for the good of the common fan? Mind you, it does sound like more innovation than we normally get in F1.

Having to rely on surveys of commentators to find out who is the best is hopeless in my, admittedly extreme, view. I'd rather trust my own opinion than James Allen and Jonathan Leggard, and that's saying something, I hear you all say. Besides, at the end of 2008, didn't Lewis come top of a poll of team principles as to who was the best driver? Maybe we should start a thread on how much the people in F1 know about the sport.

And about Michael, don't you think that he's just not as good as he once was? Being paired with Massa (and he with Kimi) made him look good long after his prime imho. At the very least, he's not as quick a learner or as adaptable as he once was. But I think he's just lost that small edge overall.

He also made more errors than Alonso in 2005. The mistakes in quali in Belgium, and Brazil, the flatspot that caused his retirement from the German GP. Mechanical failures are a part of the sport, but you don't win championships by driving slow. Besides, I could flip that argument on its head and say that even if Kimi had won it would only have been because he had far superior equipment. You can misrepresent things to suit whatever argument you like, but ultimately the fact is that Alonso's name is on the crown not Raikkonen's and that is how history will remember it. Same with Michael in 2006, he made far more mistakes than Alonso, the 2006 title was definitely merited.

My view is that it's a bit harder to say. Yes Alonso probably made fewer mistakes than his rivals in those seasons... but perhaps he was just driving slow. By "slow" we don't mean tootling round like a granny but it could be that he was driving within the limits of the car, whereas Kimi and Michael had to push harder.

Or it could be that some drivers are happy with winning at the slowest possible speed whereas others think it's just not cricket if you're not pushing all the time. Of course the first approach will win you more titles, everything else being equal, but does it mean you're a "better" driver? There might be more criteria to judge someone's driving on than purely how many points they bring home! I know some most people might disagree with me though.

[blackpebel 0]

Having to rely on surveys of commentators to find out who is the best is hopeless in my, admittedly extreme, view. I'd rather trust my own opinion than James Allen and Jonathan Leggard, and that's saying something, I hear you all say.

And why exactly is it that bad to refer to the opinion passed on by commentators???

QO also mentioned clearly by whom and in which manner the opinion is coming across. which I can see you have accidentally purposely given a miss... Let me do the honors for you, here is what QO said...

Alonso is also considered the best driver in the current field by most of the commentators, whether they like him or hate him and (as seen in a survey not too long ago) also by current and former F1 drivers

According to me, this is what QO tried to express in his comment(and i respect him for how he said it)... that the former and current F1 Drivers (who have been there/are there, done that/doing it) are knowledgeable enough to pass on their view about how a driver is performing. Because they have been/are a part of racing personally. And they think that he indeed is a good driver. And that these exact sentiments have been rhymed by a lot of other commentators with/without having a personal bias towards Alonso.

I can see that the whole point of people relying to what commentators say does not go down well with you,,,, because as you said, you would rather trust to listen to yourself... chose to should i say..

[blackpebel 0]

My view is that it's a bit harder to say. Yes Alonso probably made fewer mistakes than his rivals in those seasons... but perhaps he was just driving slow. By "slow" we don't mean tootling round like a granny but it could be that he was driving within the limits of the car, whereas Kimi and Michael had to push harder.

Ya right... Driving slow is exactly how he managed to get more then double the points that fisi(who was in the same car as Alonso) had in 2005.

Or it could be that some drivers are happy with winning at the slowest possible speed whereas others think it's just not cricket if you're not pushing all the time.

Lets see,,,, if The 'others' that your referring to are in a race lead(because they deserve it of-course), and their team tells them NOT to stress the car(because teams do it), would you still categorize them in your 'others' list, or would they suddenly drop to your 'Some drivers' list???

Of course the first approach will win you more titles,

Thank you.

but does it mean you're a "better" driver?

Yes !!! Because winning championships is not just being ahead and ever more faster of everyone, its also about having good enough brains to realize that apart form a single race, their is a championship that is up for grabs, which is important. Because it is important to stay alive in each battle to make sure that you win the war!!! halaluya...

]There might be more criteria to judge someone's driving on than purely how many points they bring home!

Unfortunately, points is, what is counted at the end, because points are universally expected to give a fair value to one's achievement...

[JHS 1]

I'm willing to consider Alonso a worthy contender for 2006, alongside Michael. What do you think of 2005. Did the best "performer" win?

Yup. Because he was champion.

The general rule of thumb is that the best performer of the year becomes champion.

It seems to be that some fans are a bit two sided (okay, I'll admit it, sometimes I've probably acted this way in the past) but if a driver they don't particularly like wins the title, it was down to him having the best car. If the driver they like wins the title, it's because they are the best f*cking driver in the universe!!!!!!!!!!!1111111