Fernando Alonso

[Argento Reloaded 1]

I´m with Brad! kimi is a far better... rally drver than nando, but if you are speaking about F1...

[Quiet One 15]

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Actually I've not seen that interview - maybe I've not been paying attention to F1 news or perhaps the British press doesn't report anything bad about Ron Dennis! (Of course I will look for it, but tbh I think we all know Jenson isn't even as good as Nando!)

I will quote you on that!

I disagree with you about having to accept anything about F1. You sound like a commie conservative b#####d when it comes to sport - whatever happened to progressive change for the good of the common fan? Mind you, it does sound like more innovation than we normally get in F1.

I meant "acceptance" as in "becoming aware of what is F1 about in these days". You are free to want/desire/rant for a different F1 altogether, of course (you tory square minded number loving little b#####d) I think that much of the frustration from a good portion of the fans derives from the incomprehension that F1 is not about who is the best driver. Regretfully, F1 marketing seems to be focused on that side of the sport. A similar situation happens in football lately (refer to the last World Cup). As football players become idolized beyond all reasonability (and paid accordingly astronomical amounts), people tends to focus on individual players (Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Rooney, etc.) and becomes frustrated when the teams with those demigods lose a match. They tend to forget that there are 10 other players and strategies paying their role. So much more in F1.

Having to rely on surveys of commentators to find out who is the best is hopeless in my, admittedly extreme, view. I'd rather trust my own opinion than James Allen and Jonathan Leggard, and that's saying something, I hear you all say. Besides, at the end of 2008, didn't Lewis come top of a poll of team principles as to who was the best driver? Maybe we should start a thread on how much the people in F1 know about the sport.

Blacpebel, gave you a better reply than I could about this.

And about Michael, don't you think that he's just not as good as he once was? Being paired with Massa (and he with Kimi) made him look good long after his prime imho. At the very least, he's not as quick a learner or as adaptable as he once was. But I think he's just lost that small edge overall.

Michael is a big enigma to me. I think that he lost a big deal of what made him great when he lost the best car, the best team and the best relationship with all of them. But even with that taken in acount, there were some characteristics of his style that simply are not there anymore yet they should be. The guy that could find that extra tenth of a second with a methodical approach to each race is no more around. The guy that barely ever made a mistake is not there anymore. I don't think those skills were just something he had because he had an amazingly great car and all the help from the Ferrari team, the FIA and all the powers that be. Some things were part of his personality. Maybe he just lost them, maybe he is just having fun and those skills were just good for a job, not for a hobby. My guess is that he is not anymore ultra professional, and I don't mean that as a criticism. Maybe, for the first time in many years he is thoroughly enjoying F1 as a hobby. In that case, he earned it.

My view is that it's a bit harder to say. Yes Alonso probably made fewer mistakes than his rivals in those seasons... but perhaps he was just driving slow. By "slow" we don't mean tootling round like a granny but it could be that he was driving within the limits of the car, whereas Kimi and Michael had to push harder.

A little memory will make you realise that he usually pushed very hard (and there's always Imola in both 2005 and 2006 to remember how far Schumi and Alonso pushed each other) When I talk about the "best package" i talk exactly about (among other things) knowing when to push more than the car can give, and when to become a greedy point saver just driving the car safely home for whatever points you can get. Basically, what he said about these upcoming 5 races: "try to get as many points as you can in each race, then do the maths at Abu Dhabi". Of course, sometimes he plays conservatively when he should have pushed and vice versa, like any other driver. But Hamilton strikes like a guy who drives too recklessly more times than he should, whereas Button looks the exact opposite. Alonso, on the average, seems to be more balanced . He is not the only one: Webber is showing the same skills this year, Schumi excelled at that in his old days, Kubica is maturing towards that kind of guy as well, etc.

Or it could be that some drivers are happy with winning at the slowest possible speed whereas others think it's just not cricket if you're not pushing all the time. Of course the first approach will win you more titles, everything else being equal, but does it mean you're a "better" driver? There might be more criteria to judge someone's driving on than purely how many points they bring home! I know some most people might disagree with me though.

Again, "better" in that sense is just a matter of taste. If you like bullfighters, Hamilton is the best. If you like smooth drivers. Button is in a league of his own. You are trying to find a mathematical formula to find who is the most beautiful woman in the world.

And you will fail (Hint: her name starts with "Came"...oops, that didn't sound good. Ok, she is part "Ron"...)

[Delta 0]

Or it could be that some drivers are happy with winning at the slowest possible speed whereas others think it's just not cricket if you're not pushing all the time. Of course the first approach will win you more titles, everything else being equal, but does it mean you're a "better" driver? There might be more criteria to judge someone's driving on than purely how many points they bring home! I know some most people might disagree with me though.

Technique is not important, it is what you do to achieve the results that shows. Ultimately, whether he was driving the wheels off his cars, or driving within himself, the fact of the matter is that Alonso's style has brought him success. Whilst you can ask questions about flat out speed, Formula 1 has never been just about flat out speed, it has been about a whole c#cktail of skills. Speed, Aggression, Intelligence, Tactical Awareness, being able to drive the team to produce you results, mind management. Being able to deliver flat out speed in isolation does not automatically make a driver the best on the grid. I don't particularly like Alonso, but I don't think his title wins where unmerited, nor do I think he is a worse driver than Raikkonen, one thing's for sure I think he is far more professional and motivated.

[blackpebel 0]

You are trying to find a mathematical formula to find who is the most beautiful woman in the world.

[Eric 0]

I think the only way to accurately evaluate drivers is with a points system. 10 points for each win, 5 points for each pole, 100 points for driving in the "glory days," 40 points for driving for Ferrari, 25 points for being named Kimi, 900 points for overtaking at Bahrain, and 1 point for drifting in the first corner of your big Ferrari debut (setting the tone for the next four, sloppy years of your career).

I'd say that this makes Schumacher the best among active drivers (1290), with Heidfeld second (905).

[Quiet One 15]

I think the only way to accurately evaluate drivers is with a points system. 10 points for each win, 5 points for each pole, 100 points for driving in the "glory days," 40 points for driving for Ferrari, 25 points for being named Kimi, 900 points for overtaking at Bahrain, and 1 point for drifting in the first corner of your big Ferrari debut (setting the tone for the next four, sloppy years of your career).

I'd say that this makes Schumacher the best among active drivers (1290), with Heidfeld second (905).

Bah, anybody with a facial hair like Heidfeld's could have done what he did. Big deal. But what about Rosberg's achievements. He accomplished almost as much as Nick although he bruises like a peach. Obviously, that proves that Nico is better than Nick.

[cavallino 2]

*irrelevant Schumacher rant*

Much as people love to bring up MS in any debate I am involved, this is pretty irrelevant here.

One final word: Alonso is also considered the best driver in the current field by most of the commentators

They all have an extremely poor record of being unbiased observers of the sport, especially the ITV-BBC lot. The english language press has been very kind to Alonso for his perceived role as Schumacher slayer. Just because he happened to win titles right after the Schumacher years has made a lot of people make the link that he won the title after Schumacher, therefore he must be better.

Martin Brundle is a prime example, a reasonably well informed commentator but he will always have a soft spot for Alonso for beating MS. Or the rabid pack in the F1 press room, who will grill Michael about a 4 year old incident at Monaco, yet none will ask Alonso the same probing questions about 2 years ago at the Singapore GP. Where were the awkward questions for Alonso at Singapore from the same investigative media that grilled Michael about Monaco '06 at Monaco this year? No one gets an easier ride with the media than Alonso, absolutely no one. Sure he will be voted the best driver, that's the Schumacher halo hanging around him and the fact that there is no dominant driver in the sport now.

Only a desperate fan will suggest that Alonso has been half the driver that Webber or Kubeetza have been this year.

You're wrong. Is not for the no refuelling, I've seen plenty of races with refueling where the driver that won the GP from pole and didn't managed to achieve the the grand chilum.

You don't understand. Most of the time a strategy that kept you in front throughout wasn't the best one overall. Also there are a bunch of other factors like safety cars, traffic, engine preservation etc that affect things, Andres is merely citing another irrelevant statistic to justify his monobrow fetish

Spot on except for the race fixing. I don't believe he was involved in the Piquet Jr.

You have that little respect for his intelligence that he went through it all blissfully ignorant? I find it far more likely that he made sure he could never be implicated.

Michael is a big enigma to me. I think that he lost a big deal of what made him great when he lost the best car, the best team and the best relationship with all of them.

That's wrong. He is not the same driver on track. Anyone can see that. That's the beginning and the end of the discussion on Michael. HE isn't the same driver. You can discuss the factors all you want. But he can't push to the limit without losing the car, he doesn't have the awareness, the skill, the extra tenths any more. Extraneous factors have very little to do with it. If you didn't know anything about F1, but knew something about motor racing, you could watch Schumacher and Rosberg on track today and see why Rosberg is faster and better. You could do the same with MS and BArrichello at Ferrari. The difference in driving style and quality was obvious, you didn't have to know about special relationshbips with the team to be able to see that.

[sadam 0]

He also made more errors than Alonso in 2005. The mistakes in quali in Belgium, and Brazil, the flatspot that caused his retirement from the German GP. Mechanical failures are a part of the sport, but you don't win championships by driving slow. Besides, I could flip that argument on its head and say that even if Kimi had won it would only have been because he had far superior equipment. You can misrepresent things to suit whatever argument you like, but ultimately the fact is that Alonso's name is on the crown not Raikkonen's and that is how history will remember it. Same with Michael in 2006, he made far more mistakes than Alonso, the 2006 title was definitely merited.

Quali doesn't matter, he still won the race.

Even Fisico won a race in that Renault in 2005. The Renault was definitely the better car overall. And where was Kimi's team mate the legendary Montoya? Now you can't say Montoya and Fisico are comparable can you?

[HandyNZL 1]

Monty rocks...

[Quiet One 15]

Much as people love to bring up MS in any debate I am involved, this is pretty irrelevant here.

They all have an extremely poor record of being unbiased observers of the sport, especially the ITV-BBC lot. The english language press has been very kind to Alonso for his perceived role as Schumacher slayer. Just because he happened to win titles right after the Schumacher years has made a lot of people make the link that he won the title after Schumacher, therefore he must be better.

Martin Brundle is a prime example, a reasonably well informed commentator but he will always have a soft spot for Alonso for beating MS. Or the rabid pack in the F1 press room, who will grill Michael about a 4 year old incident at Monaco, yet none will ask Alonso the same probing questions about 2 years ago at the Singapore GP. Where were the awkward questions for Alonso at Singapore from the same investigative media that grilled Michael about Monaco '06 at Monaco this year? No one gets an easier ride with the media than Alonso, absolutely no one. Sure he will be voted the best driver, that's the Schumacher halo hanging around him and the fact that there is no dominant driver in the sport now.

Only a desperate fan will suggest that Alonso has been half the driver that Webber or Kubeetza have been this year.

You don't understand. Most of the time a strategy that kept you in front throughout wasn't the best one overall. Also there are a bunch of other factors like safety cars, traffic, engine preservation etc that affect things, Andres is merely citing another irrelevant statistic to justify his monobrow fetish

You have that little respect for his intelligence that he went through it all blissfully ignorant? I find it far more likely that he made sure he could never be implicated.

That's wrong. He is not the same driver on track. Anyone can see that. That's the beginning and the end of the discussion on Michael. HE isn't the same driver. You can discuss the factors all you want. But he can't push to the limit without losing the car, he doesn't have the awareness, the skill, the extra tenths any more. Extraneous factors have very little to do with it. If you didn't know anything about F1, but knew something about motor racing, you could watch Schumacher and Rosberg on track today and see why Rosberg is faster and better. You could do the same with MS and BArrichello at Ferrari. The difference in driving style and quality was obvious, you didn't have to know about special relationshbips with the team to be able to see that.

Bah. You didn't actually disagree with most of my comments, you just didn't bother to read them properly (except about Alonso, but those are the ones you are simply wrong )

[Insider 0]

It's tough to compare today's 'Xbox' pilots with the clutch and gearbox brigade of yore but Alonso is a fine racer and deserves praise.

My top 5 of all time? Fangio, Senna, Clark, Mansell and Schumacher. Current top 5: Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg.

[cavallino 2]

Mansell?? Seriously? You forgot some other mediocre brits - no Damon Hill, Eddie Irvine?

[Quiet One 15]

Mansell?? Seriously? You forgot some other mediocre brits - no Damon Hill, Eddie Irvine?

And you forgot Coulthard...shame on you!

[Delta 0]

Quali doesn't matter, he still won the race.

Even Fisico won a race in that Renault in 2005. The Renault was definitely the better car overall. And where was Kimi's team mate the legendary Montoya? Now you can't say Montoya and Fisico are comparable can you?

Montoya was a better driver than fisi in my opinion for sure.

And I don't think the renault was better in that it was overall faster, they just had better mechanical reliability. The MP4-20 was faster at most tracks, it just broke down a lot.

[Medilloni 6]

A great driver or the greatest driver?

Neither. He's very,very good most of the time, but hasn't displayed the speed and consistency that the true greats have.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Neither. He's very,very good most of the time, but hasn't displayed the speed and consistency that the true greats have.

finally! Thanks Med, now we can close this thread too....

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Its always an impossible argument comparing the current drivers to the past generations. What would Alonso have been like in the Turbo era? What would he have been like racing against Hill & Clark in the 60's? Who knows.

Most would agree he is one of the best, if not the best, of the current generation.

Vettel is fast but is hopeless at racing & overtaking.

Hamilton is extremely fast, consistent, aggressive, but still makes too many silly mistakes.

Button is reliable, consistent, probably the best overtaker/racer in F1, but doesnt have the best raw pace.

Alonso doesnt have any major flaws. He has the speed, the racecraft, there are a few mistakes along the way but not the kind of blunders that you see more often from Lewis & Vettel.

So he is arguably the best out there today. Is he better than Lauda? Senna? Ascari? I havent a clue!

P.S. I should make it clear my feelings towards Alonso remain unchanged since day 1, he's still a massive d*ckhead & I can't stand him

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Mansell?? Seriously? You forgot some other mediocre brits - no Damon Hill, Eddie Irvine?

I think if you went back in time and asked Prost, Senna & Piquet whether they think Mansell is mediocre, they would laugh at you.

[supercampeaobrasileiro 0]

v poor half of season...gifted a win from massa (and btw, when alonso was complaining that he was faster, massa had already turned down his engine)...he wilted in the face of a rookie challenge, ham, almost cracked up when racing fisico...that said, clearly v talented...diffic to say where he rates..he is not a driver that re-defined standards like senna..or a technical master like schumi...it is personal of course but teflonso's driving has never really blown me away on any occasion

[BradSpeedMan 6]

v poor half of season...gifted a win from massa (and btw, when alonso was complaining that he was faster, massa had already turned down his engine)...he wilted in the face of a rookie challenge, ham, almost cracked up when racing fisico...that said, clearly v talented...diffic to say where he rates..he is not a driver that re-defined standards like senna..or a technical master like schumi...it is personal of course but teflonso's driving has never really blown me away on any occasion

man, you sum it up nicely...exactly how I feel about the monobrow

[HandyNZL 1]

man, you sum it up nicely...exactly how I feel about the monobrow

But how do you feel about Fernando Alonso?

[cavallino 2]

And you forgot Coulthard...shame on you!

We're discussing mediocre, not dismal

[BradSpeedMan 6]

But how do you feel about Fernando Alonso?

I wanted to say monobrow assasin but felt that was too worthy of him

[HandyNZL 1]

He ain't assississsinnatted no monobrows....he's the King Scwhing of the monobrow clan...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

He ain't assississsinnatted no monobrows....he's the King Scwhing of the monobrow clan...

damnit, you caught me again!