Brazil Gp

[maure 1]

The spammers seem to be more excited about F1 than you lot. Amusing.

Come on, people. We have a season finale with more drivers on the run than usual.

Sure, none are Brits... is that why you folks are so sleepy? Don't worry, Whiting will do all he can, you know, a SC seventeen laps too late (or half a lap, as convenient), an incident to be "investigated" whenever is most useful, etc. It seems we've seen it all but trust those FIA morons to surprise us yet... there is that to look forward to, you know, what some misguided souls call "evidence".

In any case, we've got two races to go. The child-eating-evil Alonso is leading the way to a 3rd championship. I know, I know. The lewisterics screamed over and over that no one would ever hire Alonso, that even if he found a team, he would never win a race again, and that _for_sure_ Alonso would never win another championship. Their infantile claims aside, has Hamilton been worth all that hatred? I laugh.

And, then, there is Webber, another victim of McLaren's style "equal treatment"... but with the peculiar taste of RBR's "we-have-been-royally-fvcked" from last season. Anyway, Vettel had so much promise and they had to go and fvcking him the Hamilton way. Still, Webber is up there and he has more cause to win than all of them together. His time is running out. Now or never for him, it seems. Unfair, to be sure. Webber is one of the good guys.

There is Hamilton, too. Only 21 points behind... which is good for him. Without a chance in hell, he will drive better. Lucky that McLaren does not even need to justify their driver "preference" here. That's a lesson to us all. Let's collectively forget how they treated Kova...

Last, and unlike Hamilton, Vettel is good under pressure. If the chance is there, he will take it. If the chance is not there, he will make it happen in order to take it. Pity he's been spoiled but... well, RBR will pay for it. Vettel is out by a race length.

So. Bring it on, folks. Bring it on even if it is your indifference or, as some goof called it, the "pleasure" of a season that is going up the F-duck... for some. And doesn't that explain a lot.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Sure, none are Brits... is that why you folks are so sleepy? Don't worry, Whiting will do all he can, you know, a SC seventeen laps too late (or half a lap, as convenient), an incident to be "investigated" whenever is most useful, etc. It seems we've seen it all but trust those FIA morons to surprise us yet... there is that to look forward to, you know, what some misguided souls call "evidence".

I'm waiting in such anticipation for this to happen. I mean, how can Whiting allow to leave it so late....

[maure 1]

I'm waiting in such anticipation for this to happen. I mean, how can Whiting allow to leave it so late....

You deserve a drive-through but I'll give you a reprimand instead.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

You deserve a drive-through but I'll give you a reprimand instead.

good one

[yurp 0]

Am I allowed to be British and think that Alonso deserves the WDC the most this year?

I'd stil prefer a DNF for him in Brazil - just to keep it interesting - but overall he probably deserves the most credit in a very entertaining year. Fewer silly errors than Hamilton and Vettel and less dull than Webber. Okay, so he had his team's full backing, but Hamilton and Vettel should have done better with the opportunities they were given and I just can't get excited about watching Webber either.

[maure 1]

Am I allowed to be British and think that Alonso deserves the WDC the most this year?

Ask your brethren.

I'd stil prefer a DNF for him in Brazil - just to keep it interesting - but overall he probably deserves the most credit in a very entertaining year. Fewer silly errors than Hamilton and Vettel and less dull than Webber. Okay, so he had his team's full backing, but Hamilton and Vettel should have done better with the opportunities they were given and I just can't get excited about watching Webber either.

Amusing double flip... flop.

[JHS 1]

Am I allowed to be British and think that Alonso deserves the WDC the most this year?

I'd stil prefer a DNF for him in Brazil - just to keep it interesting - but overall he probably deserves the most credit in a very entertaining year. Fewer silly errors than Hamilton and Vettel and less dull than Webber. Okay, so he had his team's full backing, but Hamilton and Vettel should have done better with the opportunities they were given and I just can't get excited about watching Webber either.

I'm the same. British, but don't support the British drivers or McLaren.

I've said all along I want either Vettel or Alonso to win it, so we shall see what happens.

Vettel's made too many mistakes and has really awful luck, Hamilton and Alonso have both made mistakes too, Webber's had the most luck and still found ways to moan and Button's not had that brilliant a second half of the year. Who "deserves" it? Any of them in my mind, after the season we've had, anyone of them could be a worthy champion.

I always look forward to Brazil though, a track that has a bit of everything and lends itself to overtaking even in the dry. Looks like the weather could once again impact at some point in the weekend too...

Ideally I'd like to see it go down to Abu Dhabi with 3-4 drivers still in with a chance, but let the best man win.

[Eric 0]

Am I allowed to be British

How are your teeth?

Am I allowed to think that Alonso deserves the WDC the most this year?

Of the two contenders, he's my least-hated. If Hamilton had a shot (he doesn't), I could tolerate Alonso second best behind Lewis. So, sure. Just BAN MARK WEBBER.

Am I allowed to be British and think that Alonso deserves the WDC the most this year?

No. The BBC puts Ted in the McLaren garage for 99.99% of the race for a reason. It's because you, the consumer, has asked for it. Don't kid yourself.

[Rainmaster 7]

We got James Allen as a commentator on ITV and nobody asked for that! But while we're on the subject, personally I dislike the emphasis (that's emphasis, not bias) the BBC puts on Mclaren, Button and Hamilton but it's to be expected because the majority of casual British fans (like Adam obviously ) want that.

Oh and I see Webber is discussing favouritism again. Seems like a silly time to start talking about how Seb is RB's favourite to me. Also I'm wondering whether Massa's form will return for his favourite track? If it does, he's even more of a 'head' driver than I thought, and it'll just make the rest of his season even poorer because nothing was stopping him performing better (..yeah, he's damned if he does improve here, damned if he doesn't..).

[maure 1]

I'm the same. British, but don't support the British drivers or McLaren.

I've said all along I want either Vettel or Alonso to win it, so we shall see what happens.

Vettel's made too many mistakes and has really awful luck, Hamilton and Alonso have both made mistakes too, Webber's had the most luck and still found ways to moan and Button's not had that brilliant a second half of the year. Who "deserves" it? Any of them in my mind, after the season we've had, anyone of them could be a worthy champion.

I always look forward to Brazil though, a track that has a bit of everything and lends itself to overtaking even in the dry. Looks like the weather could once again impact at some point in the weekend too...

Ideally I'd like to see it go down to Abu Dhabi with 3-4 drivers still in with a chance, but let the best man win.

Why is it that some people act strange when I throw in a bowl everything passed its due-date and call it an organic salad?

How are your teeth?

Still unjustifiably amusing.

We should track down the moron that got this one going... and fix his teeth.

Of the two contenders, he's my least-hated. If Hamilton had a shot (he doesn't), I could tolerate Alonso second best behind Lewis. So, sure. Just BAN MARK WEBBER.

What's wrong with Webber?

No. The BBC puts Ted in the McLaren garage for 99.99% of the race for a reason. It's because you, the consumer, has asked for it. Don't kid yourself.

Exactly.

[maure 1]

We got James Allen as a commentator on ITV and nobody asked for that! But while we're on the subject, personally I dislike the emphasis (that's emphasis, not bias) the BBC puts on Mclaren, Button and Hamilton but it's to be expected because the majority of casual British fans (like Adam obviously ) want that.

You call it "emphasis", I call your call bias.

Oh and I see Webber is discussing favouritism again. Seems like a silly time to start talking about how Seb is RB's favourite to me.

Start? And when was it a good time for you, anyway?

Amusingly, RBR has likely lost the championship because of favoritism, misplaced and otherwise.

Also I'm wondering whether Massa's form will return for his favourite track? If it does, he's even more of a 'head' driver than I thought, and it'll just make the rest of his season even poorer because nothing was stopping him performing better (..yeah, he's damned if he does improve here, damned if he doesn't..).

Massa? Oh yeah, that guy that no matter how much he sucks keeps wasting that Ferrari drive...

Funny thing, I just read an article where Ferrari were (again) promising him a drive next season if he pretended to be an F1 driver. One can only hope _this_time_ Ferrari was lying and that next year they'll hire someone competent.

[JHS 1]

Why is it that some people act strange when I throw in a bowl everything passed its due-date and call it an organic salad?

Sorry, you've completely lost me. It's been a long week I guess....

[Quiet One 15]

Can an Alonsomaniac think that Nando is not THE guy that deserves this WDC more than anybody else? Of course, he would be a worthy champion if he wins it, but not the only one.

Guys that deserve the championship, IMHO (in no particular order):

1) Lewis: He ****ed up many times, and some of those mistakes were critical, but that's his style. He definitely should improve that but the guy certainly improved lots since his debut. Word of advice, he has not yet reached his peak. He is definitely the new Villeneuve (Gilles). We will get to see in the coming years how great would have Gilles been if he had more time to keep being a ballsy, colorful driver. A chance Villeneuve did not have, thus becoming legend. Ham has still a mouth bigger than his balls and his balls bigger than his brain, and that gets on my nervesm but he still had a hell of a championship. Many memorable drives (I cherish his battle against Schumi at China as one of the best duels on track), he has shown some very controlled races as well (Korea, despite all his macho boasting about intermediates and "I want to race" was actually a great piece of conservative driving, after all he didn't change into intermediates until well into the race and even then he drove carefully until the end). Lewis is maturing nicely and is, right now, the only believable contender in my eyes against Alonso, talking exclusively about driver's talent, mechanical means aside. McLaren (who seems to be following Lewis path with their own bragging about "throwing in everything and the kitchen sink" and then barely even giving their drivers a car fit for racing) is letting him down, but the guy still fights, and has this explosion in him that makes him stand apart.

2) Kubica: I know he is not even a contender, but he drove like one. I hope Renault can give him a car worthy of such a driver, it would be a crime to lose him to one of the big teams. The next one in the line to reach the elite Lewis and Nando are in right now. He only needs a chance.

3) Vettel: yeah, the guy is like a spoilt version of an already spoilt Hamilton, but boy is he fast! He made lots of mistakes. He had lots of bad luck as well, but then again, so did Hamuilton, and Nando. Still lots to learn, and I think I will hate him even more as the years go by, but still a force to be reconned.

4) Nando: the 7 point talk is rubbish, and easily turned back onto any of the other contenders so no worth anything else. If he wins, he will be up there with the likes of Brabham, Stewart, Lauda, Piquet Sr and Senna. Again was the choioce of the current drivers as the best among them. Even if he keeps saying that this was his best season ever, froom the outside it didn't seem so. Some infantile mistakes, some tasteless moves (I saw the move on Massa in China and I didn't like it, although it probably saved that race for him). Luca and Domenicali also are being too pro Alonso and I feel that it is a little bit unfair. Not because Massa deserves any credit (he does not), but because he also does not deserve the humiliation. Alonso and the Ferrari bosses should let the races do the talk. After all, Alonso does not need anything else besides that to crush down a hard working and nice, but utterly hopeless Massa. On the other hand, it is worth mentioning his words to a somber Ferrari garage after a dismal British weekend that saw him in 14th place and Massa in 15th (or was it 15th and 16th?) with Hamilton leading 47 points ahead of Nando: "Heads up, folks, we can still win this championship". And then spending more time than any other dirver in the simulator and even using Virgin's one and now he finds himself with all the luck that eluded him at the season start fighting for a championship they all were ready to consider inevitably lost. And people still wonder why the Ferrari crew loves him so much compared with Kimi? Still, I don't think he is the next Senna and he will never will. He can still be the new Prost, though. He lacks the explossiveness of a Hamilton, a Villeneuve or a Senna. But he has the mix of brains and balls of a Prost.

5) Webber: actually, just because he is nice and because he one of the two closest to win it. For sheer talent, this year he had everything to show how much he had, and it didn't impress me that much. He is not bad in any particular area (well, perhaps not the best overtaker out there) but he just made the most of his luck and car, compared to Vettel. Not too shabby, but nothing THAT memorable. I like the guy, but somehow I expected him to do something more impressive...oh, I don't know.

6) Honorable mentions: Sutil, Alguersuari, Kobayashi. Sutil (let's forget about Korea...every driver is entitled to have a nightmarish race) is another driver I don't like (Nico as well while at it) but he has proved he is good at attacking, defending, qualifying, and race pace. Kobayashi needs to curb his enthusiasm a little and hone his racing skills, but he has the fire. Ditto for Alguersuari, but he is just what? 19 years old? Ifv he can learn...oh, boy!

Glaring omissions:

- Massa, Button, Rosberg: these guys just don't know how to handle themselves outside their comfort zone. Give them a winning car and they can become WDCs (and no, not every driver can do that. Ask Barrichello for details). But none of them seemed to be able to fight against their own limitations or those of their cars. They are not bad, but they do not know how to break that line that separates them from the big guys. Massa almost won in 2008 but he had the help of an apathic Kimi, and a self destructive Hamilton. And even then he lost it. Button is the smartest of the bunch. He is in fact better at the moment than both RBR drivers,because with a car as superior as the Red Bull now, he took every possible chance in his favor so when he ran out of luck, he was already on his way to become a champion. But he lacks a variety of tricks. Besides being extremely tidy and having one trick ("hey, it's rainig, let's do the exact opposite of whatever everybody else does"...a 50/50 gamble and this year it only worked 50% of the time...) he has no other arguments to fight for another championship. Maybe he will have another chance, but he depends too much on external factors. In that sense Webber belongs here as well...Rosberg...I just can't stand him. End of.

Final mention: Schumi. I think his main problem is that he is currently a driver without any real targets. For a racer that only drove to break records for most of his latest years in his previous incarnation, driving in a midfield car poses lots of new questions: should I drive just for the heck of it? To develop a car I will not be able to enjoy when it becomes a contender? Kill myself trying to make the Mercedes look a little better? The talent, albeit a little bit rusty, is still inside him (again, China and some other brief moments showed it) but those were just flashes. He needs some sort of goal to get focused. Brawn should provide him with some or just let him go. It is just a waste otherwise.

Sorry for the lengthy post

[Max Mosley 2]

Haha Andres and Maure are like good cop bad cop sometimes. I'll give my list, obviously totally subjective but still about as meaningful as the actual points system.

1) Nando. Yes I know this will surprise a lot of people, and I feel bad for letting Maure down. Maybe we can argue instead about whether his farts really smell of paella? He's made lots of mistakes this season but they tend to be less significant than most drivers'. When he has a chance, he's usually pretty solid. That said, maybe that suggests that he doesn't create chances by taking risks and pushing but rather takes his chances only when the car readily offers them without pushing so much. Who knows? You have to admire him as one of the reliably class acts of a very strong field.

2) Karun Chandhok. This will also surprise a lot of people but consider that while Webber was moaning about not having the right front wing for one race, Karun went without an entire car for half the season and still equaled his team mate's points tally. Surely a star of the future, if mainly in commentary boxes.

3) Mark Webber. Mainly because of his in-car radio, at which skill he is the number 2 driver behind only Felipe Massa (and Rob Smedley). That said, I do have some sympathy for him because he seems like a nice bloke and desperately needs a decent hair cut. OK, and the fact that he's done pretty well to match a fast team mate and probably won't have another shot.

4) Lewis. Shows great flair and talent as usual but could do better in 50/50 situations. Rather than believe the guy is that stupid, I tend to think that he just has a different philosophy to some drivers, Nando or Schumi for example. You can aim for the title at all costs or you can consider the style in which you race too. My feeling is that Lewis just thinks it's a bit cheap and poor form to settle for anything when you could go for more. But maybe he just loses his cool. Who knows?

5) Jenson. Very impressive consistency and has kept Lewis honest all season - normally not even the stewards can do either. He doesn't have Lewis's pace but he's hard to shake off completely. Plus he's an amiable and professional guy.

6) Vettel of course. Personally I don't mind his being a sore loser this season - that's maybe what he needed. But he's an awful overtaker and he overdrives his engines. Still he likes our British sense of humour and Monty Python so he's not all bad. And he could pass for a sixth former now.

[Eric 0]

Gah. Have any of you followed F1 as closely as I have? I think not. You've been too busy revolting on your farms and watching Monty Python with other people who don't shower. I've managed to see something like 2.7 races if you add up all the fractions, so my take is the most accurate.

Christian Klien has impressed me the most so far this season, and HRT too. Historically, Yamamoto excels at Interlagos relative to other tracks, yet Hispania have opted to use Klien, which is a move of great confidence. Consdier, too, that he completely outpaced Senna in Singapore, and I see all sorts of people talking about how Senna is the greatest ever in terms of raw pace. Pah! When you out-qualify and retire after your teammate retires 100% of the time, you're golden. Plus, he and Sutil make a cute couple, and if he were in the Red Bull still, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Vitaly Petrovsky definitely maybe deserves to win second in the championship. Around here, you often hear the the phrase "he stole his lunch money" when one competitor destroys another [you also hear "he raped him," too, but that translates better at a high school football (real football, as in American, and not real football, as in La Ligier or whatever it is they play in Madrid) game than it does on a sensitive Internet community as this one]. But consider this, when Petrovsky steals someone's lunch money down the straight or through the corner or up the hill or down the hill or anywhere else he may please/Jonathan Legard may please to say in the course of 30 seconds, he has to then redistribute that money equally among his favorite steel mills and government officials. Because when we're all really, really, ridiculously impoverished, we won't hate each other for investing money and spending money and creating jobs and making everyone else better off in the long run except those idiots throwing rocks in Seattle because they're just going to Hell regardless. So you realize Petrovsky has less incentive to overtake or else he'll have to lose his lunch money by stealing someone else's (in Soviet Russia, that explanation's logical), but still has incentive from that sugar-free juice company that sponsors him (or is that vodka he's drinking from a plastic carton?) to get TV time, so what does he do? He crashes with great honor and utmost respect to give various subsidies their day in the sun. You take his perverse (and not Persevere or perverted) incentives away, and suddenly, Petrovsky might maybe win every weekend, and if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Timo Glock's third. Just kidding he's the worst driver on the grid.

Just kidding he's not, as if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Third place is Scott Speed on the basis that Maure wants more fanboys. Well, I can't be a fanatic over any of these pansyboy Communist radical Eurotrash ABBA-listeners, and vomiting anti-Webber campaigns is too easy (I just take the essays for my American Government class and replace "Democrats" with "Webber"), so Scott Speed it is. Besides, if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

You want me to go beyond third?

What is this? Youth soccer (as in association football, which England invented and then coined soccer, and not as in rugby football, which is actually quite masculine and probably the cause of your teeth problem because getting hit and drinking beer are both bad for your dentistry) might let them all be winners, but honestly, this is America, speak English. If I had my way, we'd be using Bernie Ecclestone's medal system this year and it may not have been compelling but dammit it would have been fair! And if the medals were driving the Red Bull, well, they'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

[yurp 0]

How are your teeth?

Naturally great!

No. The BBC puts Ted in the McLaren garage for 99.99% of the race for a reason. It's because you, the consumer, has asked for it. Don't kid yourself.

99.98% - Alonso's pitstop in Korea took an extra 2 seconds longer than expected and then he had to take a shower to wash off all the Italian.

More sensibly...

I'm still open to the possibility of any of the top 4 really earning the WDC in the last two races. Right now I hink Alonso deserves rightly to be on top.

If Vettel, Hamilton or Webber do something amazing in the next two races, they might well earn the WDC IMO.

On the other hand, if they fall into it via other's bad luck or misjudgements then they'll just be the least of the undeserving, so I say give it to Kubica.

[maure 1]

Not bad at all, you people.

[Piotr 0]

Gah. Have any of you followed F1 as closely as I have? I think not. You've been too busy revolting on your farms and watching Monty Python with other people who don't shower. I've managed to see something like 2.7 races if you add up all the fractions, so my take is the most accurate.

Christian Klien has impressed me the most so far this season, and HRT too. Historically, Yamamoto excels at Interlagos relative to other tracks, yet Hispania have opted to use Klien, which is a move of great confidence. Consdier, too, that he completely outpaced Senna in Singapore, and I see all sorts of people talking about how Senna is the greatest ever in terms of raw pace. Pah! When you out-qualify and retire after your teammate retires 100% of the time, you're golden. Plus, he and Sutil make a cute couple, and if he were in the Red Bull still, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Vitaly Petrovsky definitely maybe deserves to win second in the championship. Around here, you often hear the the phrase "he stole his lunch money" when one competitor destroys another [you also hear "he raped him," too, but that translates better at a high school football (real football, as in American, and not real football, as in La Ligier or whatever it is they play in Madrid) game than it does on a sensitive Internet community as this one]. But consider this, when Petrovsky steals someone's lunch money down the straight or through the corner or up the hill or down the hill or anywhere else he may please/Jonathan Legard may please to say in the course of 30 seconds, he has to then redistribute that money equally among his favorite steel mills and government officials. Because when we're all really, really, ridiculously impoverished, we won't hate each other for investing money and spending money and creating jobs and making everyone else better off in the long run except those idiots throwing rocks in Seattle because they're just going to Hell regardless. So you realize Petrovsky has less incentive to overtake or else he'll have to lose his lunch money by stealing someone else's (in Soviet Russia, that explanation's logical), but still has incentive from that sugar-free juice company that sponsors him (or is that vodka he's drinking from a plastic carton?) to get TV time, so what does he do? He crashes with great honor and utmost respect to give various subsidies their day in the sun. You take his perverse (and not Persevere or perverted) incentives away, and suddenly, Petrovsky might maybe win every weekend, and if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Timo Glock's third. Just kidding he's the worst driver on the grid.

Just kidding he's not, as if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

Third place is Scott Speed on the basis that Maure wants more fanboys. Well, I can't be a fanatic over any of these pansyboy Communist radical Eurotrash ABBA-listeners, and vomiting anti-Webber campaigns is too easy (I just take the essays for my American Government class and replace "Democrats" with "Webber"), so Scott Speed it is. Besides, if he were in the Red Bull, he'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

You want me to go beyond third?

What is this? Youth soccer (as in association football, which England invented and then coined soccer, and not as in rugby football, which is actually quite masculine and probably the cause of your teeth problem because getting hit and drinking beer are both bad for your dentistry) might let them all be winners, but honestly, this is America, speak English. If I had my way, we'd be using Bernie Ecclestone's medal system this year and it may not have been compelling but dammit it would have been fair! And if the medals were driving the Red Bull, well, they'd have won the WDC two weeks ago.

errr... you forgot Juan Pablo Montoya who is doing his best to impress SOME F-1 wannabe team with his exploits in NASCAR despite his young old age and Jacques Villeuve who is trying to impress with his insistence to attempt his F-1 comeback by carefully chosing the potential teams with an exact 0 chance of even being allowed to race.

[Piotr 0]

On the other hand, if they fall into it via other's bad luck or misjudgements then they'll just be the least of the undeserving, so I say give it to Kubica.

On account I cannot have your baby, you can have my first-born. BUT, you have to promise to feed him and once you have him, you cannot give him back...

[Eric 0]

once you have him, you cannot give him back...

Your child is an investment, not a responsibility. Maximize your return.

1. Take him out of public school.

2. Give him two options to further his education. The first is to be privately tutored in the lucrative field of your choice (chemical engineering, corporate law, hedge-fund management, pharmacy, United States Congress, etc). The second is to be sent off to a Siberian military academy. He won't disappoint.

[maure 1]

Quite amusing.

Massa facing jail if he helps Alonso...

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/massa-facing-jail-if-he-helps-alonso/GpNewsForm-en-default-21-11-0-42923-1.html

[HandyNZL 1]

Kubica is better than Alonso. Infact, he's the best driver out there, but the only one that has yet had a season go his way. His time will come, and he will spank everyone else when it does.

[maure 1]

It doesn't matter.

The way teams mismanage drivers (starting from their moronic hiring policies), Kubica or whoever are likely to get fvcked over regardless of their skill.

[maure 1]

Just got an email from a friend laughing her head off because of the "Massa facing jail..." bit.

I'll tell her what I say to you guys now, that is, if only F1 "sportsmanship" were to be applied to actual sports... say, soccer, for instance. Imagine a team hiring a guy for X million so that he is the highest paid player in the team by far. After the first match, FIFA penalizes the team for "passing the ball to that player more than to the other players". Fans the world over rage in fury at the unequal treatment the players of that team receive. A judge tries to get them all in jail.

FIA has made F1 _that_ ridiculous.

[JHS 1]

Quite amusing.

Massa facing jail if he helps Alonso...

http://f1.automoto36...-0-42923-1.html

So, half of the grid and half the team bosses should be in jail already then?