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Sakae

Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team

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12 minutes ago, Sakae said:

Good to know how little makes you happy. 

Indeed. I'm happy to know that I have a little sense of humor.

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Date 2020.06.19   Time 9:29 (UTC)

Quote

Is Mercedes falling apart slowly? "Then Hamilton will be really worried''

What a headline!

One guy has decided to do something else with his life, and Mercedes is consequently falling apart. It's time to feel sorry for Hamilton. Is it what COVID-19 has done to our minds, or it was always crazy as that? 

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Date 2020.06.21   Time 18:19 (UTC)

Will Mercedes share with us their plans for next commercial cycle before first race kick in? For me at the moment that is as much if not more exciting as first race without fans by the track side.

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Sixty percent of the drivers on the current grid could win the world title in a Mercedes, according to Red Bull driver Max Verstappen.

💘 for not being scare to say what everyone else thinks, but not saying.

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On 6/19/2020 at 10:37 AM, Sakae said:

Date 2020.06.19   Time 9:29 (UTC)

What a headline!

One guy has decided to do something else with his life, and Mercedes is consequently falling apart. It's time to feel sorry for Hamilton. Is it what COVID-19 has done to our minds, or it was always crazy as that? 

Mercedes  rumour of team Leaving F1 LONG B4 Hamilton decision and announcement  made public.
 

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The current Mercedes and Hamilton domination IS different from the Ferrari Schumacher domination.
Schumacher`s were felt, more deserved than Hamilton`s.  
I do not know Y I consider this.  Schumacher DID race against challengers, Hill, Hakkinen ... Who did ALSO gain WDC`s.
However nobody is really pushin Hamilton.  His former team mate - Bottas - did push Hamilton AND succeed - so Hamilton IS NOT perfect - far from it. 

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4 hours ago, lipstick79 said:

 ...so Hamilton IS NOT perfect - far from it. 

It has to be news to him, if you tell him that.

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Brawn Warns Competition

To me, this years Mercedes always seemed like the meanest most monstrous F1 Car one could come up with. Mercedes have been sand bagging big time, it was quite evident from the onset of practice...

Of all the Mercedes cars compared to their respective rivals in previous years, This one seems to me like the most refined work at the start of the season.

If Mercedes takes up the ruthless approach, they wont be stepping down from the podium without a big mistake, don't make much as it is..

It might just be another boring Mercedes dominant season 😒

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Good design, a few, if any, errors in development, protection from competition by all kind of devilish schemes Brawn and Todt can come up with, what do you expect? Tokens, limits on work directed towards countermeasures rivals need badly, and more. Whole so called "cost savings" campaign looks and smells really fishy to me. No wonder it makes Hamilton unbeatable being protected and insulated from external, and from internal pressure points.

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8 hours ago, blackpebel said:

It might just be another boring Mercedes dominant season 😒

Not if you're a Hamilton fan.......:)

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8 hours ago, Sakae said:

 No wonder it makes Hamilton unbeatable being protected and insulated from external, and from internal pressure points.

During Q3 Lewis qualified 1.2 seconds faster than his nearest competitor Verstappen. I wonder how Hamilton as you say, being so insulated and protected was able to put in those devastatingly fast times, in all of those downpouring conditions.....Lewis being Insulated and protected...…..:laughing:

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Hamilton has this years Championship tied up already and Merc will win the constructors again no worries. Boring.

One thing that irritated and p**sed me of greatly over the years is Merc's sandbagging tactics. Especially when Wolff comes up with something after the race to say their car had a problem, or they were lucky to complete the race. Sure sure. Your lying but in a smart way. Claiming Ferrari have a better car, Merc are the underdogs. All BS.

Merc and Wolff worked out years ago that it was best if they never showed the cars true potential. Ever. Not in a race and certainly not in testing. I'm convinced this has meant they have strategically lost races too, or turned down the car too much before a race and then are stuck in parc fermé. Allowing RBR and Ferrari to win the odd race means they can protect the massive car advantage they have. Because if they are winning races 1 and 2 and finishing 30secs to a lap ahead of everyone else, then questions will be asked why they are so much faster.

So they hide their true speed. Only tapping into it when needed like in qualifying. Thus no matter how much RBR and other teams improve Merc just dial it up a bit and voila, they win yet again.

I won't deny they have done a great job with their car, but the problem I have is that no team can ever catch up due to the token system, and having no real track testing. Therefore F1 is a procession and not a sport. We all know before each race that Merc are going to win. When they don't it's an anomaly or intended to make it look like they are struggling.

F1 isn't a sport anymore. The only question is how much in front of everyone else will Merc be at the finish line.

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4 hours ago, Samouri said:

Not if you're a Hamilton fan.......:)

I wonder if hamilton fans fall asleep besides a cheerleader pom-pom , while watching an F1 race, and an alarm set to the end of the race for them to wake up and cheer for her-hamilton,,, all the while, avoiding the boredom that comes with him not having any competition.

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Hamilton fans go on and on about how dominant a driver he is. ZERO mention of the fact he's in the most dominant car and team in F1 history.

Vettel haters go on and on about how it's all Newey and not Vettel when he won 4x in a row with RBR.

Alsono fans go on and on about how he always outdrove his cars, was robbed at Ferrari because they built sh*t cars for him. But then also attack Vettel to say he's thrown championships and choked because he's apparently had better cars than the Mercs (see above Merc. ie. statistically and factually the most dominant cars in F1 history). Even though most observant people can see other than extra speed due to "fiddling" with fuel flow for a season or so, they have all been pretty bad, and most definitely NOT better than the Mercs.

These same people also stay silent when in 2010 Alonso couldn't even pass Petrov. PETROV! of all people who was driving ironically a Renault haha

Hypocrisy much?

Edited by KoolMonkey

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12 hours ago, Samouri said:

During Q3 Lewis qualified 1.2 seconds faster than his nearest competitor Verstappen. I wonder how Hamilton as you say, being so insulated and protected was able to put in those devastatingly fast times, in all of those downpouring conditions.....Lewis being Insulated and protected...…..:laughing:

There is no doubt that Hamilton is protected species. Internally they don't dare to do anything to make him angry (they will even steal teammate's crew for him, if necessary, as they have done, just to stop his very public whining). Externally, there is no way regulatory conditions permits competining teams to work on their cars and make necessary improvements. If you don't recognize this as a protection racket, then I am afraid any further explanation is not possible from my side.

Hamilton's car was faster in last weekend than slower, much slower RB, you say, and that's sign of what? Hamilton's superiority? Let them switch seats, and if Hamilton will generate again a such huge gap, I will take all back what I ever said about this guy with huge apology on top.  Problem is, from history we know, that when Hamilton has the same (McLaren years), or even slightly lesser car on some circuits, he will not win, at least no always, which is why Vettel has his trophies, and Hamilton has his, because he won (sort off) six seasons with that car. It is not as surprising and impressive for everyone, as his fans would like to be.

And that's a guy who once said, that he wants to win deservedly, not on "cheap" like Schumacher.

He makes really hard for some of us to like him with his superiority complex.

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11 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

Hamilton fans go on and on about....

Vettel haters go on and on about.... .

Alsono fans go on and on about... 

Hypocrisy much?

Selective about only certain fans and only certain haters are we?? 

Hypocrisy much? 

One would expect a witty assessment about s##t that vettle fans talk about, sandwiched between s##t hamilton fans talk about and the s##t Alonso fans talk about... Its difficult if ur leaning on one end or the other.. 

I guess we All, in someway, have a ticket for a one way ride on Hypocrisy express.. Just in different compartments ...

We all selectively look at only the chosen side of the coin to assess the full value of the coin, but no one really knows what it is, coz we have ignored the other.

Coz honestly Vettle fans can't stop whining about how easy hamilton has it with Mercedes, even going on to suggest (and rightly so) that the sport is a farce with unequal equipment, and Ferrari is an embarrassment to its own legacy, but can't apply that same logic to what happened with Alonso... Hmm Hypocrisy much? 

No matter what, In a sport where the machine is more then often more important then the man, Hamilton And Alonso have both proved otherwise.. Can't strongly feel that about Vettle... 

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36 minutes ago, blackpebel said:

No matter what, In a sport where the machine is more then often more important then the man, Hamilton And Alonso have both proved otherwise.. 

Date 2020.07.15   Time 16:33 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I wonder if you can prove that, or even suggest where and when it happened. I want facts, not rumors perpetuated by fans. I do watch races religiously for quite a while, and I don't recall seeing anything of that kind you are suggesting. What I do however recall is that this (basically nonsensical) mantra has been repeated ad infinitum for very long time.

Alonso had always cars designed to accommodate his driving style, often to the detriment of his teammates, especially Kimi, a reason why he often was perceived like a candidate for Nobel price after races, while Kimi was experiencing difficulties. It made me actually quite violently ill to hear Alonso's (BS) claims so often how he got out of the car 110%.

Hamilton never won in a car that didn't suit him, and which was at least equal to others. In fact, even smallest deviation on setup from his style ended with his hysterical blow out to media after the race. In fact Hamilton had McLaren which Paddy Lowe assessed as good as RB on majority of tracks. Guess who however won WDC. (Hint, it wasn't Hamilton). Spin that Vettel had BEST car followed. It was the only way how to excuse McLaren's driver.

That's my take on those claims. 

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17 hours ago, blackpebel said:

I wonder if hamilton fans fall asleep besides a cheerleader pom-pom , while watching an F1 race, and an alarm set to the end of the race for them to wake up and cheer for her-hamilton,,, all the while, avoiding the boredom that comes with him not having any competition.

Sorry...but I don't fall asleep during a race while Lewis is comfortably leading, because something like what occurred to him with an engine detonation at Malaysia in 2016, which cost him the WDC for that year is always a possibility.

Besides I rather enjoy watching the other fights that are going on during a race, and especially Max with his extraordinary moves during an event. 

Look...if I just had fallen asleep during the last race, because Lewis was comfortably leading. I would have missed the antics of that little terror, and future WDC.....Lando Norris.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Sakae said:

There is no doubt that Hamilton is protected species. Internally they don't dare to do anything to make him angry (they will even steal teammate's crew for him, if necessary, as they have done, just to stop his very public whining). 

And that's a guy who once said, that he wants to win deservedly, not on "cheap" like Schumacher.

 

I really have to question your facts as you have laid them out, when you said, " There is no doubt that Hamilton is protected species. Internally they don't dare to do anything to make him angry (they will even steal teammate's crew for him, if necessary, as they have done, just to stop his very public whining)." The fact....fact is that in 2016 Mercedes decided to move Hamilton's mechanics,  and gave them over to Rosberg on the opposite side of the garage. Just the opposite to what you have declared.

Cheap or do you mean Cheat?

As Lewis was asked, and felt that he didn't want to become as winningest as 7-time champion Michael Schumacher in the series, he doesn't want to do that on the expense of being considered a cheat.

 

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image.png.5a4779eb8266722f6d6ece0dfa3b81a5.png

 

So you selectively choose some words out of the entire post I wrote to attempt to prove a point... AND then you use the word SELECTIVE in your rebuttal? Okay sure why not lol

 

Alonso has proven two things in his career.

1) His greatest achievement (2nd would be spygate, and 3rd would be crashgate) in F1 comes down to winning in 2005 with a slower but more reliable car. Hands down the best driver of that year was Kimi. He went 100% in all races. Alonso didn't, he played it safe. It was a unique year in many aspects. From that point on, it think it's fair to say that most if not all of the championships were however won in the best car.

- 2019 the best car won
- 2018 the best car won
- 2017 the best car won
- 2016 the best car won, but not with the favoured driver
- 2015 the best car won
- 2014 the best car won
- 2013 the best car won
- 2012 very very close season decided by only 3 points. Both Ferrari and RBR were good that year. Debatable who had the best car that year.
- 2011 the best car won
- 2010 another close season decided by only 4 points. Vettel with 5x wins and Alonso with 5x wins. Debatable who had the best car that year.
- 2009 won by the best car for the first half of the season, but from Silverstone on, it was not even close to the best car. Deserving champion, but also lucky they had such a car advantage for the first half of the season. Had the season been 1x more race, I believe Vettel would have taken it.
- 2008 infamous season due to the last race. Who had the best car? Massa had 6x wins vs Hamilton who had 5x wins.
- 2007 super close season only decided by 1 point. Kimi 6x wins vs Hamilton on 4x wins. I think it was closer than it should have been. We all talk about the internal strife at Mclaren with Alonso vs Hamilton but Kimi also had 2x retirements vs 1x for Hamilton. I think the best driver and best car won that year.
- 2006 close season. Alonso on 7x wins vs Schumi on 7x wins. Not sure who had the best car that year.
- 2005 the infamous 2005. it is still one of the most exciting seasons I personally watched. so many highs and so many lows. the "best" car was the McLaren, but it was also the worst.

So what does all this show? For starters Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have all won in dominant cars. Vettel and Hamilton have won in "equal" cars, and Alonso won in a slower but more reliable car.

Hamilton has won far more blowout championships than Vettel. Of Vettel's 4x, 2x were decided in the last race, and he also closely missed out in winning in 2009. Hamilton has missed out on 2x championships too, and Alonso has closely missed out on 3x by my rough calculations. However most old timers here are well aware of the argument that Vettel only won because of Newey, but Hamilton wins because he's so much more superior and walks on water. Or that Alonso outdrives bad cars and gets 110%. All nonsense arguments all of them. I honestly think all 3x drivers are equals to some degree. The only difference has been the amount of time spent driving dominant cars.

I think what this shows is that modern F1 is determined now on power of engine, aero and a driver whose has a skillset above a certain point. I know people think anyone can hop into a Merc and win, but I know putting GRO in a Merc would not mean he's automatic to win. Bottas I feel has under performed during his time at Merc. Yes Hamilton is a better drive, but Bottas sometimes struggles to come 2nd. However if you put Verstappen, Vettel or Alonso in the Merc they ARE going to win.

Winning in modern F1 is now determined more on the car than the driver. Provided you're not crashing or having DNFs, if you've got the best car, the chances are almost a certainty you're going to win.


2) That Alsono leaves chaos in the aftermath of teams he's driven for.

Alonso fans insist he's had entirely crap cars whilst at Ferrari, and that he was held back by bad cars. I've shown that for 2x years at least in Ferrari, he actually had really good cars.

Vettel haters insist he had Championship level cars whilst at Ferrari but bottled it.
2019 was a blowout of a championship.
2018 was a little closer but still a whooping.
2017 was closer again, but Hamiton had 9x wins vs Vettel's 5x wins
2016 1x DNS and 3x retirements. Beaten in points by his team mate, but team mate also had no retirements that year. I wouldn't call this a whooping or comprehensively beaten, but this year is used ad finem to somehow show that Vettel was destroyed. However it's amazing how many people ignore that Button "destroyed" Hamilton in 2012. So if Vettel was truly destroyed, then so was Hamilton. I believe it's more a realistic case that both drivers in those years were either not comfortable with the car, had DNFs and it just wasn't their best year.
2015 was a hiding. Close at Merc, but years ahead of any other teams.
2014 a total blowout of year.

I see no situation where Vettel has blown a championship. There was a stretch a couple of years back where things started to get a little worse for Vettel in terms of spins, crashes and so on. But I'm of the belief that alot of that was Vettel trying to push the car harder than was possible and that the balancing and car design were simply not good enough. The car seemed too nose heavy for me. I think Sochi was the only real brain fade moment when he hit Hamilton. Hamilton did break check him even if he wasn't sanctioned for it. Still Vettel never should have made contact with Hamilton, it was disappointing to see.

 

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9 hours ago, Samouri said:

I really have to question your facts as you have laid them out, when you said, " There is no doubt that Hamilton is protected species. Internally they don't dare to do anything to make him angry (they will even steal teammate's crew for him, if necessary, as they have done, just to stop his very public whining)." The fact....fact is that in 2016 Mercedes decided to move Hamilton's mechanics,  and gave them over to Rosberg on the opposite side of the garage. Just the opposite to what you have declared.

Cheap or do you mean Cheat?

As Lewis was asked, and felt that he didn't want to become as winningest as 7-time champion Michael Schumacher in the series, he doesn't want to do that on the expense of being considered a cheat.

 

Our recollections obviously differ, but to be frank, I am tired of getting back and pulling out the same topics repeatedly. Hamilton is sheltered internally and externally, that's how I see it, and I've read nothing to change my mind about it. It is debatable whether it began as intentional strategy, but it ended this way.  

FiA failed to step on the (regulatory) brakes by mid 2014 when it become apparent, that F1 is facing huge problem having one team monopoly in offing for years to come. Ecclestone commented more than once that Mercedes was working with FiA on power plant specs and development for very long time before anyone else, yet it was not enough to let other teams to catch up, and close the development gap? Why not?

Take just the latest set of restriction pertaining to work on car. It is mandated under cost saving initiative, yet in reality who will save what? Ferrari looks almost certainly being in doldrum for next two years due to design errors (power plant and vehicle) which cannot be corrected to full extend needed. They can forget big pay check end of this year. And who will prosper most from having Ferrari out of the way? Brown certainly will not complain, and neither will Mercedes or RBR. So much for competition and merit based winning. 

RBR is rising and has huge potential, so it seems, but there is big difference between coming close to the line, and then crossing it. Prost thinks they will be not able to make that last step. Mercedes is again saved. Ferrari was the only team which had any chance to wreck Mercedes monopoly for owning podium, had FiA permitted early track testing so mistakes could be identified early and in time corrected. (As it used to be in times when Schumacher was there.) To make mistakes is part of human activity, it is old as human race, but now we live in era when we are prohibited to make mistakes? Who came up with that rubbish?

We can go on along those lines for very long time, but it will not change reality, that cumulative effect on regulatory sides help some teams, damaged others, but at the end the only one which will be hurt least is Mercedes, and F1 brass has done nothing to put stop to it. Mercedes drivers are safe again from competition.

This of course might change in 2 years when downsizing comes in effect.

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@KoolMonkey

That's a worthy response, to a response, to a response, that deserves a response.... I tip my hat to you, good lad...

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

So you selectively choose some words out of the entire post I wrote to attempt to prove a point... AND then you use the word SELECTIVE in your rebuttal? Okay sure why not lol

Ofcourse! Coz your entire post was about the side of the coin which Ham and Alo fans stood on, while (kinda) playing a blind eye to what Vet fans do to defend Vettle..  I used the word SELECTIVE, and Quoted the Part of your post, BECUASE your post was SELECTIVE about a certain Fans...

And I Kindly of did prove the point in the very next sentence I wrote ....  Seemed unfair that we kept Vettle fans back on the picnic didn't it?

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

Alonso has proven two things in his career.

 

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

That Alsono leaves chaos in the aftermath of teams he's driven for.

I, as well as a huge portion of F1 know-how's acknowledge, what an absolute a## Alonso is while managing the folks around him.. for reference, Here is something that I saiid on one of the other topics in this forum resonating this same fact...

 

It is mostly his own fault for where he has landed up in his F1 career, he played selfish almost always, unlike Hamilton who although is selfish(and at times a sore loser), also acts smug to hide it... I DON'T shy away from this AT ALL! 

Regardless, Alonso is every bit of a driver of top accolades that F1 (and other racing series) have showcased...

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

Winning in modern F1 is now determined more on the car than the driver. Provided you're not crashing or having DNFs, if you've got the best car, the chances are almost a certainty you're going to win.

I guess I realize the unfairness of this beloved Sport as you, when I wrote...

15 hours ago, blackpebel said:

In a sport where the machine is more then often more important then the man, Hamilton And Alonso have both proved otherwise.. Can't strongly feel that about Vettle... 

I was actually trying to say that Ham And Alo both have shown their mettle in less competitive Machinery more then once and proven that they can hold their nerves against a formidable opponent even when the odds are stacked against them.

 

Here is a Stats to sum up the gist of what i'm talking about: Vettle has NEVER won from below the 3rd on the grid...

This alone says, that he almost always had a car in that respective race, which was worthy of a fight to the win... Never Otherwise!

____________

To the part where you compare seasons 2005 - 2019 ...

More or less, I agree with your assessment about those years,, n honestly I really appreciate you taking the time and efforts to type your thoughts about what you felt about each of them, it was a good read to see how you viewed all those years!! n again, I tip my hat to you ma man...

Merc Winning years were definitely a snooze.. But I hold a different view on the 2010 and the 2012 seasons

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

2012 very very close season decided by only 3 points. Both Ferrari and RBR were good that year. Debatable who had the best car that year.

 

7 hours ago, KoolMonkey said:

- 2010 another close season decided by only 4 points. Vettel with 5x wins and Alonso with 5x wins. Debatable who had the best car that year.

I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint of BOTH these years, I would say that the facts actually proved far from it being DEBATABLE in any manner....

2012:

That Ferrari Lego Toy Car, was NO where a match for the competition, be it RBR or McLaren for that matter. I keep a good eye on each F1 season, both Winter tests and developments on eace race weekend ... As I remember, Ferrari got it completely wrong that year with their setup where the car was a dog with their Mechanical grip... In fact, I would say, that Renault was a better machine that year..

RBR won the constructors, with webber having 2 wins to his name... Felipe (championship contender in 2008), was more then half the point behind alonso with no wins... 

2010:

This is what I felt, and responded to brads question about the 2010 Ferrari...

image.png.7745706854965cd1bcf3b7511ed0d438.png

 

> You already resemble my thoughts for 2011 and 2013, so no disputes over there...

 

____________________________________

Here is one more fact that I think is worth consideration, (Except for 2015, coz Mclaren-Honda was Literally Testing the car in races, and NOT RACING) , Alonso has NEVER finished behind on points against his team mate in any season... Cant say that about either Vettle or Hamilton...

____________________________________

 

Here is what I would like to say... ( i'v said something similar before on this forum, but then again), Vettle is a good driver, indeed, but you don't reach F1 if you are anything other then good.. Lady luck favored him, and  He made his luck with where has reached.. I have to add, BY NO MEANS do I hate Vettle.. I absolutely admire his personality on track.. I have no feelings or animosity or jealousy when I look at him... Coz that's Vettle.. He's just that jolly good fellow who deserves what he got in life..

 

F1 does not let us see the merit of driver skills because there is no uniformity in the equipment provided to all the racers..

Honestly, on pure skills... I would say, that there is no dispute that Ham or Alo are way better!

In a fair race, with equal equipment between Ham, Alo, Vet, and Verstappen, I'm pretty sure Vettle would not make the podium.. 

 

 

 

Edited by blackpebel

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