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cavallino

Hypothetical Discussion : Team Orders

If ferrari use team orders this season,  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. If ferrari use team orders this season,

    • It is illegal and Ferrari should be punished
      1
    • It is illegal but its been used by other teams so you cannot punish them
      2
    • It is not technically illegal as long as it is done subtly rather than blatantly
      4
    • There is nothing wrong with using team orders
      5


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ok a hypothetical case. in the last race of this season due to mclaren's unreliability, Michael Schumacher has the chance to snatch 2nd place in the championship. however he needs RB to move over for him. if ferrari do it,

1) is it against the rules?

2) should ferrari be punished for that?

I want to know the opinion of the forum you are welcome to vote on top, however I would prefer it if you put your opinions in a reply below, along with a reason for your opinion.

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It is against the rules, but I don't think they should be punished because other teams haven't been punished as well.

That said, I would prefer if they do it subtly, so that there's still a degree of uncertainty.

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Depends how they go about doing it. If it's as blatant as Austria '01 and '02 then I wouldn't really agree with it, however if it's early in the race amid all the commotion, then it's nothing different to what most teams do.

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B) Why change the history of F1 now, you do what you have to do..........

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i am with nojvnof1 side here it is blatant use of the orsers we are all against and the situation you quote is largely different from the situation in Austria 02 and in this case i don't mind team orders but i'd rather it is subtly done than openly

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ok a hypothetical case. in the last race of this season due to mclaren's unreliability, Michael Schumacher has the chance to snatch 2nd place in the championship. however he needs RB to move over for him. if ferrari do it,

1) is it against the rules?

2) should ferrari be punished for that?

I want to know the opinion of the forum you are welcome to vote on top, however I would prefer it if you put your opinions in a reply below, along with a reason for your opinion.

That's quite the hypothetical Cavallino, as it would never be a blatant use of team orders (at least not in the current F1 environment), but you'd have to consider each situation on an individual basis. In Turkey, Renault did not tell GF to move over for FA, rather they told FA that he was faster and to go for it.

Many will say that is a meaningless distinction, as it was essentially a poorly coded direction to GF to move aside, but nevertheless, every effort should be made to avoid any manipulation of the results through overt team orders. It is antithetical to the true spirit of sportsmanship, which at least ought to be at the heart of motor racing.

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under the current situtation do u guys think tht if kimi was trailing JPM for the lead... will jpm be told to let kimi through... i believe he will let kimi through and no one will find anything wrong with it coz they willl not do it in a dramatic fashion as ferrari did in austria some years back... but technically speaking it is still against the rules.... but then again there is no way FIA can prove tht he moved aside due to team orders....

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under the current situtation do u guys think tht if kimi was trailing JPM for the lead... will jpm be told to let kimi through... i believe he will let kimi through and no one will find anything wrong with it coz they willl not do it in a dramatic fashion as ferrari did in austria some years back... but technically speaking it is still against the rules.... but then again there is no way FIA can prove tht he moved aside due to team orders....

McLaren are astute enough to not do it on the track. Not that that would excuse the manipulation of results, but it is less transparent. A cynic would suggest that there is not a single team on the grid that would hesistate to do whatever was necessary to assist a driver to win the championship under those circumstances.

And it's even worse than that - suffice to say that JPM would know what is expected of him, and therefore what to do in that situation, without having to be told.

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The rule is stupid, things like the austria incedent when RB slowed down to let MS win, then no, thats wrong but otherwise, i cant see any problem, its the teams decision to do what they want imo!

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The rule is stupid, things like the austria incedent when RB slowed down to let MS win, then no, thats wrong but otherwise, i cant see any problem, its the teams decision to do what they want imo!

In the end it comes down to racing and (as I said above) sportsmanship.

Do we want to see a manipulated finish to each and every team mate battle? What would we end up debating Ben? How would we get any idea how to rank the drivers, if every performance was choreographed? We want to see racing, and often the most competitive battles are between team mates. I abhor team orders, as it robs us of some of the most exciting racing on the track, and is unfair to both drivers.

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In the end it comes down to racing and (as I said above) sportsmanship.

Do we want to see a manipulated finish to each and every team mate battle? What would we end up debating Ben? How would we get any idea how to rank the drivers, if every performance was choreographed? We want to see racing, and often the most competitive battles are between team mates. I abhor team orders, as it robs us of some of the most exciting racing on the track, and is unfair to both drivers.

i wouldn mind seeing team mates battle it out... tht will be real racing... i think most of us enjoyed senna-prost a very long time ago...dunno if we'll see tht again... if mclaren buck up and get rid of their reliability prob i reckon it will be a decent fight between JPM & KIMI....

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i wouldn mind seeing team mates battle it out... tht will be real racing... i think most of us enjoyed senna-prost a very long time ago...dunno if we'll see tht again... if mclaren buck up and get rid of their reliability prob i reckon it will be a decent fight between JPM & KIMI....

precisely

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that is what i felt at the start of this season but....the Mclaren's reliability....well what can you say :(

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Its illegal but that doesn't make it wrong imo. F1's all about stretching the rules. Of course I would rather they didn't do it but when you have teams they always will. In fact increasingly I am wishing we didn't have teams.

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Btw cav: I await with interest your attempt to twist the result into an alleged Ferrari bashing from us all! ;)

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That's quite the hypothetical Cavallino, as it would never be a blatant use of team orders (at least not in the current F1 environment),

exactly, my point is the only mistake Ferrari made was to do it blatantly, and the bad press it generated made FIA make the stupid rule. I repeatedly come against the opinion here that the way ferrari did it is not fine but the way renault and mclaren have done it this year is fine.

noone is going to be stupid enough to do it on track. the FIA rule is in fact a tacit understanding between the teams and FIA that as long as the fans dont start booing you can do what you want. it is a farce and should be scrapped.

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Order - is just one of the way of Management.

... and one of the most effective ones too =)

All teams fights for better effectiveness ...

so why they should make those fights without Orders ?

=)

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Order - is just one of the way of Management.

... and one of the most effective ones too =)

All teams fights for better effectiveness ...

so why they should make those fights without Orders ?

=)

Because Formula 1 is not simply a team competition, it is also (and equally) an individual contest, and team orders undermine that aspect of the sport.

Plus, it is unsportsmanlike, and is therefore inconsistent with the best traditions of Formula 1 racing.

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Because Formula 1 is not simply a team competition, it is also (and equally) an individual contest, and team orders undermine that aspect of the sport.

Plus, it is unsportsmanlike, and is therefore inconsistent with the best traditions of Formula 1 racing.

It's not a black and white issue Jay as surely you have seen this season.

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exactly, my point is the only mistake Ferrari made was to do it blatantly, and the bad press it generated made FIA make the stupid rule. I repeatedly come against the opinion here that the way ferrari did it is not fine but the way renault and mclaren have done it this year is fine.

noone is going to be stupid enough to do it on track. the FIA rule is in fact a tacit understanding between the teams and FIA that as long as the fans dont start booing you can do what you want. it is a farce and should be scrapped.

Consider it a codification of the rule against bringing the sport into disrepute. The FIA and Mosley know that they cannot effectively prohibit all forms of team orders, but at least they can (and should, many would argue) limit it as much as possible to situations where it is not transparent. The rest depends on the integrity of the teams, where some have certainly displayed better judgement in the past than others.

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It's not a black and white issue Jay as surely you have seen this season.

No I agree Dan, it isn't. But at the same time, the sport is neither only a team sport, nor only an individual sport, and the problem as I see it, is that too much emphasis is placed on the priorities of the teams (who effectively have the power and financial backing to see to it that their will be done) relative to that of the drivers. There needs to be a better balance between the two, and the rule against team orders at least is designd to restore the appearance of that balance.

It's much like the old addage, that justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done. Often the appearance of justice is the best we can manage.

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No I agree Dan, it isn't. But at the same time, the sport is neither only a team sport, nor only an individual sport, and the problem as I see it, is that too much emphasis is placed on the priorities of the teams (who effectively have the power and financial backing to see to it that their will be done) relative to that of the drivers. There needs to be a better balance between the two, and the rule against team orders at least is designd to restore the appearance of that balance.

It's much like the old addage, that justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done. Often the appearance of justice is the best we can manage.

I agree but you introduce potential for controversy when you have rules than can only be applied on subjective grounds. Where is the line between a team order and a non-team order? If Renault instructing Fisi that Alonso is faster and should pass him is not a team order then what is? Who decides and on what criteria? I think the FIA is just asking for trouble... But I am not really for or against team orders, I merely present the other side of the debate.

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I agree but you introduce potential for controversy when you have rules than can only be applied on subjective grounds.  Where is the line between a team order and a non-team order?  If Renault instructing Fisi that Alonso is faster and should pass him is not a team order then what is? Who decides and on what criteria? I think the FIA is just asking for trouble... But I am not really for or against team orders, I merely present the other side of the debate.

Don't get me started on the enforcement of rules based on subjective criteria, unless you have all day. But you do have to admit that this is a better rule than the one which simply penalizes teams for bringing the sport into disrepute - nothing can be more subjective and arbitrary than that.

Anyway, I gotta go, I have an emergency - client in custody - attempted murder.

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Don't get me started on the enforcement of rules based on subjective criteria, unless you have all day. But you do have to admit that this is a better rule than the one which simply penalizes teams for bringing the sport into disrepute - nothing can be more subjective and arbitrary than that.

Anyway, I gotta go, I have an emergency - client in custody - attempted murder.

Agreed and since you're jumping ship, I'll be off to the gym. You'll have to explain the story behind your post above when you get back.

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Agreed and since you're jumping ship, I'll be off to the gym. You'll have to explain the story behind your post above when you get back.

Send me a message when you get back and I'll fill you in......

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