cristiano84 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Since I started watching F.1 13 years ago that's the first time I've seen Schumacher beaten fair and square by his teammate at Ferrari.Massa started last on the grid while Michael was 14th.Massa finished 5th,Schu 6th.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YHR 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Since I started watching F.1 13 years ago that's the first time I've seen Schumacher beaten fair and square by his teammate at Ferrari.Massa started last on the grid while Michael was 14th.Massa finished 5th,Schu 6th.. Many considered FM not worthy of the Ferrari seat. I am glad I was not one of those, and was impressed by his pace and maturity last year. Now if Brundle would stick a sock in his mouth about Massa, the rest could make up their own minds about him. On at least two occasions Brundle took uncalled for shots at FM. Nothing made me happier to see him finish ahead of MS Seems like KR is not the only one who can drive through the field. I wonder what our Senna is thinking now seeing FM match MS's qualifying pace and now actually finish ahead of him in a race.????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 I think Rubens managed it a few times, at Austria for instance, but things aren't looking too good for Schumi. He's clearly past his best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YHR 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 I think Rubens managed it a few times, at Austria for instance, but things aren't looking too good for Schumi. He's clearly past his best. Considering he(MS) was on the podium last week, I am more inclined to think that Massa is indeed a decent driver. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cristiano84 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Considering he(MS) was on the podium last week, I am more inclined to think that Massa is indeed a decent driver. Indeed well done Felipe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UrKo 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Lets hope that we will see more of that in next GPs!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Considering he(MS) was on the podium last week, I am more inclined to think that Massa is indeed a decent driver. Who said he wasn't a decent enough driver? I still think he's about average in F1. You surely don't think MS is still at his best? Btw why wasn't Massa on the podium last week? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YHR 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Who said he wasn't a decent enough driver? I still think he's about average in F1. You surely don't think MS is still at his best? Btw why wasn't Massa on the podium last week? Well Murray a lot of guys on this Forum, you included, predicted MS would totally dominate the Brazilian. MS was on the Pole at the last race. Even if he is not at his best, apparently he is still better then most anyone else. I don't believe a driver is suddenly past it when he reaches 34. Massa is better then average, and this year he will prove it. As far as last race, he blew his braking point. Big whup. That is a desert dirty track, and it caught him. At least Ferrari know he is driving that machine on the limit. He didn't lose a position and he kept the motor running. The horrible pit stop, that took over 1 minute, is what ruined his race. Massa is better then average. In his first races with Ferrari he has done an exceptional job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buttonfan 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Godo job Felipe, that was a good race for him and especially good to beat his teammate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KarlG 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Hats off to Felipe. Now that show that Schumacher can be beaten in a Same car duel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UrKo 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 We all knew that Schumacher can be beaten in the Same car duel, only thing is, that JT did not let RB to do that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Well Murray a lot of guys on this Forum, you included, predicted MS would totally dominate the Brazilian. I don't remember saying that. I remember agreeing with Dan (sorely missed) that it depends on how much MS has declined. The MS of 3,4 years ago would "totally dominate" the Brazilian, as would Kimi and Alonso now. MS was on the Pole at the last race. Even if he is not at his best, apparently he is still better then most anyone else. I don't believe a driver is suddenly past it when he reaches 34. But Schumi was beaten today so maybe he's not better than everyone else? Basically your argument is circular. You can't use their relative performances this year to prove that they're both "exceptional". For that we must look to other data, such as last year when a JV (who even nojvnof1 thought was not at his peak) ran Massa close, and this year when Heidfeld is at least running (presumably a slightly more competitive) JV close (and today was beating him). MS himself admitted he personally struggled at times last year and wasn't fit or motivated enough and there were times when Rubens was just as quick. If all these drivers (and the conventional wisdom is that there are slightly better ones too) are about as good as MS then he surely is well off his peak? Even the great man himself says that you're past it at 40 and he's 37 now... Massa is better then average. In his first races with Ferrari he has done an exceptional job. Perhaps he is slightly better than average but he's not "exceptional" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YHR 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 I don't remember saying that. I remember agreeing with Dan (sorely missed) that it depends on how much MS has declined. The MS of 3,4 years ago would "totally dominate" the Brazilian, as would Kimi and Alonso now.But Schumi was beaten today so maybe he's not better than everyone else? Basically your argument is circular. You can't use their relative performances this year to prove that they're both "exceptional". For that we must look to other data, such as last year when a JV (who even nojvnof1 thought was not at his peak) ran Massa close, and this year when Heidfeld is at least running (presumably a slightly more competitive) JV close (and today was beating him). MS himself admitted he personally struggled at times last year and wasn't fit or motivated enough and there were times when Rubens was just as quick. If all these drivers (and the conventional wisdom is that there are slightly better ones too) are about as good as MS then he surely is well off his peak? Even the great man himself says that you're past it at 40 and he's 37 now... Perhaps he is slightly better than average but he's not "exceptional" JV was a world Champion and Massa was his equal last year in even equipment. This year Massa has beaten a motivated MS. Give the guy some credit. All I know Murray is that there were a lot of guys talking trash about Massa. Those that did, know who they are. I felt Massa had matured and was going to be impressive this year. For those remarks I suffered more of, "don't you know anything about anything" remarks, that so many on here throw out there. I am just laughing because once again one of my "outlandish" claims is going to be proven true. Massa will be stepping up into highly sought after category by the end of this year. JV was beating NH last week when his engine let go. JV has proven he is as quick as Nick, that is another one of my "outlandish claims" that is becoming a reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 I don't remember saying that. I remember agreeing with Dan (sorely missed) that it depends on how much MS has declined. The MS of 3,4 years ago would "totally dominate" the Brazilian, as would Kimi and Alonso now.But Schumi was beaten today so maybe he's not better than everyone else? Basically your argument is circular. You can't use their relative performances this year to prove that they're both "exceptional". For that we must look to other data, such as last year when a JV (who even nojvnof1 thought was not at his peak) ran Massa close, and this year when Heidfeld is at least running (presumably a slightly more competitive) JV close (and today was beating him). MS himself admitted he personally struggled at times last year and wasn't fit or motivated enough and there were times when Rubens was just as quick. If all these drivers (and the conventional wisdom is that there are slightly better ones too) are about as good as MS then he surely is well off his peak? Even the great man himself says that you're past it at 40 and he's 37 now... Perhaps he is slightly better than average but he's not "exceptional" Indeed Murray. It is patently obvious to those of us who remember the indomitable Michael Schumacher of 1995 [sadly, very few members actually can, which coincidentally explains rather a lot] that the 2006 version is considerably past his prime. Michael is after all over 37 years old. In my opinion, if Michael can Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 I think it is safe to say if Massa is able to beat MS occasionally, FA and Kimi would totally dominate schuey, Button would beat him by quite a margin, and jpm would just beat him! MS unfortunantly is getting old now, and thus 2007 (imo) will be his last F1 season! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C.A.L. 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2006 JV was a world Champion and Massa was his equal last year in even equipment. This year Massa has beaten a motivated MS. Give the guy some credit.All I know Murray is that there were a lot of guys talking trash about Massa. Those that did, know who they are. I felt Massa had matured and was going to be impressive this year. For those remarks I suffered more of, "don't you know anything about anything" remarks, that so many on here throw out there. I am just laughing because once again one of my "outlandish" claims is going to be proven true. Massa will be stepping up into highly sought after category by the end of this year. JV was beating NH last week when his engine let go. JV has proven he is as quick as Nick, that is another one of my "outlandish claims" that is becoming a reality. There are several aspects of assessing a driver's ability which when understood as how that "ability" can be maxiumized ....supported (or suppressed) can they then be properly noticed from the yielding or non-yielding results produced in race conditions. J.V. @ BARF1 during bad man Richards short stay is when he(J.V.) is unsupported ..given low rated F1 cars and treatment contrasted against Button (Golden Boy) silver platter treatment. Blame J.V. for cars breaking down etc. (His driving style) Blah..blah.. ...Still Button ...no wins , he crashed heavily and held other drivers up like a pup-tent in a storm back then. Is Button(Tarnished-boy ? ) soooo good now that Rubens is seen for what Rubens is ? or is Rubens getting the short end of the treatment or the new team/tire adjustment syndrom etc...... No Ferrari was / is Sooo good of a F1 car that anyone would do well in it ...even Massa. Massa still has things to learn (tire wear, braking points) as does say Rosberg (besides new tracks)...but performance on the track is coming through that you have to notice the ability (hidden or growing) coming to the surface for both. J.V. & N.H. are an interesting pairing ...may have an engine as reliable as the Cosworth V8 but slightly less power (presently) could be battling with Williams as the season continues , I think J.V. is regaining his racing edge/form daily ...and N.H. is maturing ....contrast this to Red Bull (Ferrari) level of performance shown so far : D.C. & Klein are decent and their car is decent ...but I think that sometimes a F1 car can be just below in overall performance of the close rivals no matter what. Issues can come up that hinder the potential results as Klein I believe hit Kimi to both get knocked out ...D.C. gear-box failure(out) and I think no-one really has an issue with these occurances as Blaming Driver or so & so should be replaced so early as say last year with J.V. at Sauber. Heck at the end of the last year Webber /M.SCHum. were in their questionable situations too. I do not think any of the drivers have "lost it" ...M.SCHum, Webber, J.V. or Button or Rubens. Massa is doing fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 In my opinion, if Michael can Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vas 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 MS and FM are conserving their engine for next round. That may be one of the reason MS did not try to overtake FM. Also, I feel MS is not mentally tuned to be aggresssive against his team mate to go and get that extra point. MS would have let go FM to gain more on goodwill. We shall not read too much into this! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zippy 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 I am happy that FM did well, it was a good drive. I dont know if it would happen again too many times as the team just wont allow it. Micheal will remind the team that it is his team and that will be that. I think it shows that rubens is average (hence why michael hired him). For some reason everyone seems to like rubens and that is the only reason that the questions havent started about him getting sacked. He is in a good team that is well budgeted, it is not like he has gone from a ferrari to a midland. Sack him and put davidson in. Heck bring back ricardo rossett, he would do just as good a job as what barrachello is doing at the moment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YHR 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 Indeed Murray. It is patently obvious to those of us who remember the indomitable Michael Schumacher of 1995 [sadly, very few members actually can, which coincidentally explains rather a lot] that the 2006 version is considerably past his prime. Michael is after all over 37 years old. In my opinion, if Michael can Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavallino 2 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 Indeed Massa had a great race and beat his teammate fair and square. But there were mitigating circumstances, Schumacher had to spend more time trying to get past other drivers, whereas Massa could just leapfrog them at pitstops, and many just fell by the wayside. The one stop strategy was far better since Schumacher was not able to show his pace when he had it, and as he admitted his second stint was quite slow for some reason. He was all over Massa in the last stint, but obviously it was too late then, its impossible to overtake your teammate in formula 1. So great drive from Massa, but I wouldn't write off Michael yet.. By the way anyone noticed the number of lock ups Massa had yesterday? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoFan 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 A few, but the lock ups were on unweighted tyres going around corners - this could simply mean he is a little heavier on the brake foot than say Rubens or Michael. I mean to say the excuse Rubens is giving for his poor showing is that the Hondas TC sucks, so why not a light Ferrari brake that Massa is still sorting out? Michael is past his prime - and I'd be one to wager that Massa does beat him overall this year - what amazed me during the Malaysian race was that Massa WASN"T asked to get out of the way (or he had "radio problems") for Michael to pick up an extra point, and put him in outright 2nd place on the table. Very very very un-Ferrari like. The question then begs to be asked - has Michael decided that this season is it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aussief1 4 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 MS is a true champion, I for one will have to see a fair more defeats at the hands of FM to write the man off as past it. Lets not get carried away with one good performance from FM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nojvnof1 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 Michael is obviously past his peak. However, his peak was so far and above that of the average F1 driver that even now, he's still very competitive. Massa made a dumb mistake in Bahrain but did very well yesterday and really impressed me. He could have gone off trying to charge up the pack but a good strategy mixed with some clever driving and he finished ahead of Michael. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narain fan 0 Report post Posted March 20, 2006 JV was beating NH last week when his engine let go. JV has proven he is as quick as Nick, that is another one of my "outlandish claims" that is becoming a reality. no that was not ur claim"u claimed Jv will outqualify nick twice in every 3 races(by a ratio of 2:1) anyway beating MS once doesnt mean Massa is "overall" better.. 16 more rounds to go..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites