Mario Wanted Jv-kubica Shoot Out

[dribbler 6]

I don't care if you're a world champion or not; you're only as good as your last race. That's why it was fair for JV to be tested againt Kubica and that's why it's fair that Ferrari are squeezing Michael for Kimi to secure their long term objectives too. No driver, not even a world champion should have an automatic right for the drive. If JV was so far up his own arse that he wasn't prepared to have a head to head just because he though he was above it, then he's a fool.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I don't care if you're a world champion or not; you're only as good as your last race. That's why it was fair for JV to be tested againt Kubica and that's why it's fair that Ferrari are squeezing Michael for Kimi to secure their long term objectives too. No driver, not even a world champion should have an automatic right for the drive. If JV was so far up his own arse that he wasn't prepared to have a head to head just because he though he was above it, then he's a fool.

He shouldn't have a right to drive, but he should have gotten some respect. Herr Mario was an a$$ for wanting the shootout, either sign him or don't but to disrespect a World Champion is harmful to the sport and just rubs me the wrong way.

The M$ supporters must realize that irregardless of developing a car, there were at least two championships M$ won in a vastly superior car. You admit that he had a vastly superior car. On this fact alone, without bringing anything else into the discussion, M$ and JV are alike. M$'s crown is not thought of any less, so also JV's crown, won the same way, should not be thought of any less.

[dribbler 6]

He shouldn't have a right to drive, but he should have gotten some respect. Herr Mario was an a$$ for wanting the shootout, either sign him or don't but to disrespect a World Champion is harmful to the sport and just rubs me the wrong way.

The M$ supporters must realize that irregardless of developing a car, there were at least two championships M$ won in a vastly superior car. You admit that he had a vastly superior car. On this fact alone, without bringing anything else into the discussion, M$ and JV are alike. M$'s crown is not thought of any less, so also JV's crown, won the same way, should not be thought of any less.

I don't think any less of JV's 1997. I'm not unsympathetic to the notion of showing respect (god knows i'm the first to demand that people show Michael some where it's due) i just don't see the problem in proving one's worth. If Michael had been off the pace in winter testing would it be unreasnoble for Ferrari to ask questions? Or should they just show him respect regardless?

[Autumnpuma 0]

I don't think any less of JV's 1997. I'm not unsympathetic to the notion of showing respect (god knows i'm the first to demand that people show Michael some where it's due) i just don't see the problem in proving one's worth. If Michael had been off the pace in winter testing would it be unreasnoble for Ferrari to ask questions? Or should they just show him respect regardless?

Fair enough, but as it has been shown in multiple threads, JV was not 'off the pace' (from Nick) enough to justify a shootout with a rookie. That move was designed to (justifiably) get JV outraged enough to quit.

As to your question, yes, I would expect Ferrari to show respect enough to make an evaluation of M$ without a 'shoot-out'. It would be very easy to do, just give them the same car in testing and see what they do (not telling them it's for comparison, of course). All the teams know the speed of their drivers and testers compared to each other anyway, so a public shoot-out is just that, for the public. In this case it was to publicly let BMW get rid of JV without taking fire for it.

[shampion 0]

I whole-heartedly agree with and understand JV's reason in doing what he did.

The fact is... like others have mentioned...... why was it just JV to have a "shoot out" with Kuica and not Heidfeld as well??????????

I think personally that Kubica has a good future in F1 and understand wanting to try him in a race situ... but JV was at the least on par with Heifeld and agrueably had better pace. But you can not change where you are born and cause JV is not a German he didn't get as fair of a chance as Heidfeld.

I can understand being a German company wanting to promote a German driver.... that makes good business..... however lets call a spade a spade... If heidfeld was the Canadian and JV the German ,,, I think things would be reversed. It just goes to show that F1 is not just a sport but like all sports it is business. I just don't agree with this business decision.

Kart tried the same thing years ago ... trying to have only Americans in the sport and running the Indy 500 with americans only and now, even though I still watch both, the IRL and Kart have both suffered.... and IRL had to adjust and allow drivers of other nationalities in the race field. Unfortunately we are now left with two so-so race leagues

Just my opinion

[Autumnpuma 0]

I think your opinions are spot-on. The only correction I would make is that CART didn't try to run just American drivers. Tony George started the IRL with the intention of running an inexpensive, primarily American open-wheeled series revolving around the Indy 500. CART was screwed heavily by the whole thing, so don't sully the name of that great series by lumping it in with the IRL.

[Blitzkrieg 0]

He shouldn't have a right to drive, but he should have gotten some respect. Herr Mario was an a$$ for wanting the shootout, either sign him or don't but to disrespect a World Champion is harmful to the sport and just rubs me the wrong way.

The M$ supporters must realize that irregardless of developing a car, there were at least two championships M$ won in a vastly superior car. You admit that he had a vastly superior car. On this fact alone, without bringing anything else into the discussion, M$ and JV are alike. M$'s crown is not thought of any less, so also JV's crown, won the same way, should not be thought of any less.

MS won 2 championships in a vastly superior car because of himself, he worked hard with the team and only by his influence and experience they came up with such a superior car, no one can disagree about that. MS and JV are no where alike, when it comes to skills and experience JV is no where near Michael, maybe thats why he got 'kicked out' of F1 and maybe thats why he is bad-mouthing. Whatever his success was, happened once upon a time. When he had the opportunity to become 'great' too, he failed miserably and like every other oppurtunity he gets, he blows it up completely. And why should he deserve respect after his latest comments? he talks alot but doesnt do alot? showing respect for his character is just impossible for me.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I was suggesting people show him respect for being a World Champion, not for his comments. Blitz, are you so pro-German that you can't show respect for that? The guy accomplished something that hundreds of drivers never have and never will. He achieved the top status in this 'sport' we all watch and enjoy and if you value the WDC crown as the 'top status' in F1, then you should value all the men who have taken that crown.

[stopkidding 0]

The whole idea behind Mario's shoot out idea was to see if his gamble on Kubica will payoff. If Kubica performed badly in the shoot out it was very likely that JV would have stayed on for 2007. Going by the JV's pace this year in testing and Qualification and his race experience, I have no doubt that JV would have beat Kubica in the shoot out and won the race seat for 2007.

JV chose not to be part of this mediocrity. For a man who stands by his belief, he decided to walk away from this humiliation. Any other driver would sucked up to Mario just to win the race seat. JV is a not a suck up and never has been.

That is the whole point of this thread! If you claim to have a spine, stand up for what you believe in.....JV stood up, and chose to walk away and BMW is a weaker team now and for the immediate future because of this.

[Autumnpuma 0]

The whole idea behind Mario's shoot out idea was to see if his gamble on Kubica will payoff. If Kubica performed badly in the shoot out it was very likely that JV would have stayed on for 2007. Going by the JV's pace this year in testing and Qualification and his race experience, I have no doubt that JV would have beat Kubica in the shoot out and won the race seat for 2007.

JV chose not to be part of this mediocrity. For a man who stands by his belief, he decided to walk away from this humiliation. Any other driver would sucked up to Mario just to win the race seat. JV is a not a suck up and never has been.

That is the whole point of this thread! If you claim to have a spine, stand up for what you believe in.....JV stood up, and chose to walk away and BMW is a weaker team now and for the immediate future because of this.

[cavallino 2]

I see what you're driving at here. JV won the championship in a vastly superior car. By that logic, a certain German also won a few championships in a vastly superior car. Would that German also be less-deserving of a championship? I don't think so. You gather enough points and you win the WDC--it's that simple. Each champion has faced unique challenges* on their way to the pinnacle and each champion deserves the crown they won.

The German demolished everyone in a vastly superior car, JV just about sneaked through in the end.

*In JV's case, he battled against his own team owner/chief engineer...Patrick Head. Not many drivers have the mental fortitude to battle Patty, on his own turf, and win.

Sneak preview for you from the next JV quote of the week

"I just want to be fighting people the whole time"

How did so many other drivers manage to win championships with Williams without fighting anyone?

He shouldn't have a right to drive, but he should have gotten some respect. Herr Mario was an a$$ for wanting the shootout, either sign him or don't but to disrespect a World Champion is harmful to the sport and just rubs me the wrong way.

Respect for what? In F1 you're about as good as your last year, who gave Damon Hill that 'respect' in his pathetic twilight years. He could have seen out this year and gone out in peace, as a driver who has failed to beat two midfield drivers i nthe last two years, he should damn well have to prove himself if he wants a drive. If he is not prepared to compete, what is he doing in F1? He wants a driver because "I won races 10 yers ago", what next? "I deserve a drive because my father was a great driver"?

M$'s crown is not thought of any less, so also JV's crown, won the same way, should not be thought of any less.

It's hardly a factor in deciding whether he drives next year.

The whole idea behind Mario's shoot out idea was to see if his gamble on Kubica will payoff. If Kubica performed badly in the shoot out it was very likely that JV would have stayed on for 2007. Going by the JV's pace this year in testing and Qualification and his race experience, I have no doubt that JV would have beat Kubica in the shoot out and won the race seat for 2007.

And? Going by Kubica's race performances I am not sure, not on raw pace at least. Irrelevant anyway, if JV thinks he's so good, why doesn't he want to prove it?

JV chose not to be part of this mediocrity. For a man who stands by his belief, he decided to walk away from this humiliation. Any other driver would sucked up to Mario just to win the race seat. JV is a not a suck up and never has been.

Proving your pace is sucking up? Kubeetza's been 'sucking up' by being a fast driver?

BMW is a weaker team now and for the immediate future because of this.

He played right into their hands. He could have seen out the year and Kubeetza would have been limited to testing, now they get to try him out before unleashing him next year. BMW must be delighted to get rid of a disruptive element like that.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I really think BMW would've sacked JV even if he was generally faster in the shoot-out, and would've just used the result of the shootout as an excuse when announcing that JV had been dropped

[c21 0]

The German demolished everyone in a vastly superior car, JV just about sneaked through in the end.

Sneak preview for you from the next JV quote of the week

"I just want to be fighting people the whole time"

How did so many other drivers manage to win championships with Williams without fighting anyone?

Respect for what? In F1 you're about as good as your last year, who gave Damon Hill that 'respect' in his pathetic twilight years. He could have seen out this year and gone out in peace, as a driver who has failed to beat two midfield drivers i nthe last two years, he should damn well have to prove himself if he wants a drive. If he is not prepared to compete, what is he doing in F1? He wants a driver because "I won races 10 yers ago", what next? "I deserve a drive because my father was a great driver"?

It's hardly a factor in deciding whether he drives next year.

And? Going by Kubica's race performances I am not sure, not on raw pace at least. Irrelevant anyway, if JV thinks he's so good, why doesn't he want to prove it?

Proving your pace is sucking up? Kubeetza's been 'sucking up' by being a fast driver?

He played right into their hands. He could have seen out the year and Kubeetza would have been limited to testing, now they get to try him out before unleashing him next year. BMW must be delighted to get rid of a disruptive element like that.

I absolutley agree with you there cav, it saved me writing a long post myself.

But I would also like to point out that a boss is a boss and can hire or fire who he likes in order to bring the team forward.

I think Dr Thiessen is trying to lay a foundation for the future, he inhereted JV from Sauber, and therefore had no choice.

It was no secret that he/BMW didnt want him there at all, but after discovering that the contract was watertight, honoured that contract.

And let us not forget that JV walked away from this "shootout", he knew the writing was on the wall and decided not to take part, his loss.

He had the chance to bury the young whippersnapper but chose the easiest way out, maybe he knew he couldnt.

If you have such self belief, (Im sure JV has) and you know you probably wont get a drive next year, why not kick Kubica's a## and go out on the high ground so you can say even though you proved to be the faster, that they still gave you the boot and its their loss if they want an inexperienced driver in the race seat.

[Fer 0]

I absolutley agree with you there cav, it saved me writing a long post myself.

But I would also like to point out that a boss is a boss and can hire or fire who he likes in order to bring the team forward.

I think Dr Thiessen is trying to lay a foundation for the future, he inhereted JV from Sauber, and therefore had no choice.

It was no secret that he/BMW didnt want him there at all, but after discovering that the contract was watertight, honoured that contract.

And let us not forget that JV walked away from this "shootout", he knew the writing was on the wall and decided not to take part, his loss.

He had the chance to bury the young whippersnapper but chose the easiest way out, maybe he knew he couldnt.

If you have such self belief, (Im sure JV has) and you know you probably wont get a drive next year, why not kick Kubica's a## and go out on the high ground so you can say even though you proved to be the faster, that they still gave you the boot and its their loss if they want an inexperienced driver in the race seat.

I think JV knew he was screwed either way. The shootout was designed to humiliate JV end of story. c21, MT did not want the Sauber leftover JV onboard the new BMW bus and you admit this. Lets be realistic, as others have pointed out there was no way in hell JV was going to be driving the 2007 BMW period. MT knew the shootout was never going to happen because of the Honda thing in 2003. So JV did not take the easy way out, he left on his own terms and told MT to screw himself which is what MT deserved to hear. MT can be satisfied that he rid his team of JV, will it hurt the team, I don't know. All I know is that JV was pouring his heart and soul into that team so long as they were equally committed to him-does JV's maximum effort make the car go faster? Nick himself admitted he learned a few things from Jacques during their short stint together-is JV a disruptive influence on the team? If he's helping the lead driver get better I'm not so sure he's a disruptive influence. As for a shootout, what does that prove? That someone can drive half a tenth faster going around a track on their own. There is something called racecraft that cannot be measured in a shootout, and this is why MT wanted to judge JV and RK's performances against NH in races to assess who is better. The only thing is that JV had a driving contract for 2006 and this request of MT violated the spirit and probably the legal terms of that contract and indicated to JV that BMW were not 100% behind him and therefore he could no longer give them 100%- fair is fair. Rather than be humiliated in this way JV said to MT no thanks and walked away. Yes, JV was at the end of his F1 career, we all know that, but, I think he had something to offer BMW if they wanted his help and people are correct when they say its the perogative of BMW to accept or reject JV. This stuff about JV being disruptive is BS, I think for the most part they had a decent relationship up until the German GP when JV and NH came together ruining both their races-Sh#t happens. JV just wanted to know if he was driving for them next year, he didn't want to get screwed again at the last race of the season like he did at BAR Honda. Sadly, unlike Damon Hill, JV was forced out while he was in excellent shape, still had the fire to race, was still on the pace and one of the top ten drivers in the world, he was just too old and not the right nationality.

[c21 0]

I think JV knew he was screwed either way. The shootout was designed to humiliate JV end of story. c21, MT did not want the Sauber leftover JV onboard the new BMW bus and you admit this. Lets be realistic, as others have pointed out there was no way in hell JV was going to be driving the 2007 BMW period. MT knew the shootout was never going to happen because of the Honda thing in 2003. So JV did not take the easy way out, he left on his own terms and told MT to screw himself which is what MT deserved to hear. MT can be satisfied that he rid his team of JV, will it hurt the team, I don't know. All I know is that JV was pouring his heart and soul into that team so long as they were equally committed to him-does JV's maximum effort make the car go faster? Nick himself admitted he learned a few things from Jacques during their short stint together-is JV a disruptive influence on the team? If he's helping the lead driver get better I'm not so sure he's a disruptive influence. As for a shootout, what does that prove? That someone can drive half a tenth faster going around a track on their own. There is something called racecraft that cannot be measured in a shootout, and this is why MT wanted to judge JV and RK's performances against NH in races to assess who is better. The only thing is that JV had a driving contract for 2006 and this request of MT violated the spirit and probably the legal terms of that contract and indicated to JV that BMW were not 100% behind him and therefore he could no longer give them 100%- fair is fair. Rather than be humiliated in this way JV said to MT no thanks and walked away. Yes, JV was at the end of his F1 career, we all know that, but, I think he had something to offer BMW if they wanted his help and people are correct when they say its the perogative of BMW to accept or reject JV. This stuff about JV being disruptive is BS, I think for the most part they had a decent relationship up until the German GP when JV and NH came together ruining both their races-Sh#t happens. JV just wanted to know if he was driving for them next year, he didn't want to get screwed again at the last race of the season like he did at BAR Honda. Sadly, unlike Damon Hill, JV was forced out while he was in excellent shape, still had the fire to race, was still on the pace and one of the top ten drivers in the world, he was just too old and not the right nationality.

Sauber and BMW were ever REALLY committed to JV, Peter Sauber said right after his first meeting with JV that he was not interested in him, obviously the Michelin deal changed all that. Remember most of the 2005 season there was speculation as to when Sauber would dump him.

BMW were crystal clear that they never wanted him, and even got to test their new driver ahead of next year in a race environment. Im sure the "Screw you!" was music to MT's ears! he got his wish 5 or 6 races ahead of time.

If JV couldnt see the writing on the wall one year ago, he needs new glasses.

The BMW management got what they wanted and are happy, end of story.

JV should be happy he got to plod around two years after his sell by date (if we are honest).

I dont disagree that he wasnt too bad this year, but BMW obviously have decided the way the want to go, its their right to do what they think is best for them.

[shampion 0]

I think JV knew.........

................ I think he had something to offer BMW if they wanted his help and people are correct when they say its the perogative of BMW to accept or reject JV. This stuff about JV being disruptive is BS, I think for the most part they had a decent relationship up until the German GP when JV and NH came together ruining both their races-Sh#t happens. JV just wanted to know if he was driving for them next year, he didn't want to get screwed again at the last race of the season like he did at BAR Honda. Sadly, unlike Damon Hill, JV was forced out while he was in excellent shape, still had the fire to race, was still on the pace and one of the top ten drivers in the world, he was just too old and not the right nationality.

You are spot on!!!

Like I already said ... if Heidfeld was the Canadian and JV the German.... things would be reversed

[dribbler 6]

Fair enough, but as it has been shown in multiple threads, JV was not 'off the pace' (from Nick) enough to justify a shootout with a rookie. That move was designed to (justifiably) get JV outraged enough to quit.

As to your question, yes, I would expect Ferrari to show respect enough to make an evaluation of M$ without a 'shoot-out'. It would be very easy to do, just give them the same car in testing and see what they do (not telling them it's for comparison, of course). All the teams know the speed of their drivers and testers compared to each other anyway, so a public shoot-out is just that, for the public. In this case it was to publicly let BMW get rid of JV without taking fire for it.

But surely if JV was quicker than Kubica, he would have had nothing to worry about?

[Fer 0]

Sauber and BMW were ever REALLY committed to JV, Peter Sauber said right after his first meeting with JV that he was not interested in him, obviously the Michelin deal changed all that. Remember most of the 2005 season there was speculation as to when Sauber would dump him.

BMW were crystal clear that they never wanted him, and even got to test their new driver ahead of next year in a race environment. Im sure the "Screw you!" was music to MT's ears! he got his wish 5 or 6 races ahead of time.

If JV couldnt see the writing on the wall one year ago, he needs new glasses.

The BMW management got what they wanted and are happy, end of story.

JV should be happy he got to plod around two years after his sell by date (if we are honest).

I dont disagree that he wasnt too bad this year, but BMW obviously have decided the way the want to go, its their right to do what they think is best for them.

OK c21, if JV "plodded along" for two years after his sell by date then maybe BMW might reconsider employing Nick Heidfeld, who, let's be honest here, didn't exactly blow JV away this year. And, by the same token, Ferrari might reconsider employing Felipe Massa, who by the middle to end of last year, was not exactly outperforming JV. Let's face it, JV was not lacking for pace, he was however lacking for a ride where his employer actually wanted him there. In F1 there is the novelty factor-you're new, young and have the potential to be the next MS, after that is gone, even if you have pace, you better have someone strong in your corner, even if you are a world champ, or you are gone. That's where the politics come in. We all know that. I am a realistic JV supporter though and in his efforts to show everyone he still had the stuff he would put a wheel wrong more often than when he was driving his best (~2001). Back in the day he drove pretty flawlessly. Anyone remember around that time (~2000-2001) when there was no launch control, JV got off the line faster than anyone in many of the races and made up some 3 or 4 places right at the start (Canadian GP in 2000, I think he was about 7th or 8th on the grid and was up to third after the start- then it rained and it all went wrong after that).

But surely if JV was quicker than Kubica, he would have had nothing to worry about?

No Dribbler,

JV would have to be comprehensively faster than Kubica. JV is 35 and not getting any younger or better, Kubica is 21 with a lot of room to grow and a real opportunity for BMW to mould him the way they would like him. I think the point of contention is whether BMW maximized the situation-were they able to use the experience of someone like JV to benefit their operation maximally while letting RK mature to the point where he is ready to be full time driver. MT thought the time was right. I disagree. We shall see (or not-it will be difficult to tell from my vantage point-BMW engineers would be the ones to discuss this with).

[milaszewski 0]

I've always liked Villeneuve. He's one of my favorite drivers. But the fact is, that his performance has been dropping recently. I don't think that trying to be a rock star and F1 driver at the same time is a good idea. It sounds like trying to have two demanding jobs at the same time.

And from my point of view as a person who's tracing test results (not practice) Kubica had an equal or slightly better performance than Villeneuve and he's constantly improving.

[Fer 0]

I've always liked Villeneuve. He's one of my favorite drivers. But the fact is, that his performance has been dropping recently. I don't think that trying to be a rock star and F1 driver at the same time is a good idea. It sounds like trying to have two demanding jobs at the same time.

And from my point of view as a person who's tracing test results (not practice) Kubica had an equal or slightly better performance than Villeneuve and he's constantly improving.

I agree, I don't think there was a lot of difference between Kubica and Villeneuve in terms of raw speed. JV is just a lot more experienced. How about this for a shootout idea, which would have been a much fairer and realistic comparison-drop Heidfeld for the last 6 races and compare JV and Kubica!!

[Autumnpuma 0]

But surely if JV was quicker than Kubica, he would have had nothing to worry about?

It wasn't a matter of worry, but of pride. C'mon, drib, you know what my point was, even if you don't agree with it

[shampion 0]

[quote name='Fer' post='137962' date='Sep 8 2006, 02:54 PM']How about this for a shootout idea, which would have been a much fairer and realistic comparison-drop Heidfeld for the last 6 races and compare JV and Kubica!! [/quote]


Right on!!!!!

But could MT handle not having a German in a race seat of a German car????

[cavallino 2]

The shootout was designed to humiliate JV end of story.

How would he be humiliated if he beat Kubeetza?

So JV did not take the easy way out, he left on his own terms and told MT to screw himself which is what MT deserved to hear.

Rather what MT wanted to hear. The door was open, it was always open. JV can slam it to try and make a point, though I am not sure what exactly is the point he made.

OK c21, if JV "plodded along" for two years after his sell by date then maybe BMW might reconsider employing Nick Heidfeld, who, let's be honest here, didn't exactly blow JV away this year.

He beat him. Fair and square.

And, by the same token, Ferrari might reconsider employing Felipe Massa, who by the middle to end of last year, was not exactly outperforming JV.

Beat him over the season. Fair and square.

In F1 there is the novelty factor-you're new, young and have the potential to be the next MS, after that is gone, even if you have pace, you better have someone strong in your corner, even if you are a world champ, or you are gone.

Why on earth do JV fans continue to make this ridiculous assertion, in the year that Fisichella resigned for a top team, Coulthard saw off a youngster to retain his drive in an improving team, Michael has had an open contract to sign, Rubens is contracted till 2007 at least, yet JV goes out and somehow it's a case of experienced drivers being let off in favour of rookies??

Did I mention Pedro De La Rosa?

I think the point of contention is whether BMW maximized the situation-were they able to use the experience of someone like JV to benefit their operation maximally while letting RK mature to the point where he is ready to be full time driver. MT thought the time was right. I disagree. We shall see (or not-it will be difficult to tell from my vantage point-BMW engineers would be the ones to discuss this with).

JV has little interest in team building or team loyalty. Works both ways.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Did I mention Pedro De La Rosa?

Ouch...I'm certainly not going to argue with that point...well done

How would he be humiliated if he beat Kubeetza?

You are deliberately not seeing the point, here, you know.......No doubt he felt a bit betrayed by a team that apparently thought so little of his skills and speed that they needed to measure him against a rookie, after he had been measuring himself agains Nick all season and had the better of the German on a few occasions. The insult is obvious.

Suppose you, Cav, as a software designer, had won awards for past designs and was highly regarded in your company. Then you went for a period of years not winning any awards. Are you any less intelligent? Now suppose the company owner said that you would be in a contest of sorts to design a bit of software better than a green new-hire just out of University. You certainly could do such a thing, but the trust between you and your company would be soured. You would know your company didn't value you anymore and I ask you, what would you do? I have enough pride that I would quit and find another job. Work is meaningless if you aren't valued at it.

[dribbler 6]

Ouch...I'm certainly not going to argue with that point...well done

You are deliberately not seeing the point, here, you know.......No doubt he felt a bit betrayed by a team that apparently thought so little of his skills and speed that they needed to measure him against a rookie, after he had been measuring himself agains Nick all season and had the better of the German on a few occasions. The insult is obvious.

Suppose you, Cav, as a software designer, had won awards for past designs and was highly regarded in your company. Then you went for a period of years not winning any awards. Are you any less intelligent? Now suppose the company owner said that you would be in a contest of sorts to design a bit of software better than a green new-hire just out of University. You certainly could do such a thing, but the trust between you and your company would be soured. You would know your company didn't value you anymore and I ask you, what would you do? I have enough pride that I would quit and find another job. Work is meaningless if you aren't valued at it.

I'm not being so antagonistic to suggest that JV was not a great driver because undoubtedly he was. Let's be brutal. If JV was at the top of his game and was the best bet for BMW, why on earth did they want him out? If anything, i think you are deliberately not seeing our point; F1 is not cuddly and supportive of a drivers pride, it's about proving your worth week in week out.

If JV had won the shoot out it would have strengthened his cause and 'un-soured' the relationship. You are right to hold your opinion that this was humiliating for Jacques and that he was right not to get involved, the point is not lost on me and if i would have been in his posistion i would have felt the same. But i also would have asked myself this: "Do i know for sure that i could beat Kubica?" If the answer was "no" then i would have walked. Out of pride i wouldn't have given this as my reason, i too would have said that i was above all that.

Your analogy is unrealistic. A software designer could probably be at the top of his game for the duration of his career because physical fitness is not a key consideration. Also, as in the case with Jacques v's Robert you have failed to investigate the possibilities of actually accepting the challenge. If Cavallino is better at his job than the 'green' guy he would feel confident enough to accept the challenge and beat him. In the work place many of us have to take on this sort of challenge anyway, that's what a competitive working enviroment should be like. Suggesting that the pinnacle of motorsport competiton should not also include these ingredients is crazy. Do we all want potentially a bunch of lame ducks swimming around just so their pride stays intact?