The Official I Hate Max Mosley Thread

[cavallino 2]

"We believe that a standard chassis is the best solution," wrote Mosley in his letter. "The competition would then be between drivers armed with rival, fuel-efficient drive trains but otherwise in equal cars. Painted differently and with different sponsors, the cars would look as different as they do today to anyone but an expert.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59983

I think a part of me just died

I think I will revive my blog over this I am thazt furious, so watch this space.

[Sato 0]

If we wanted to watch standard cars, we'd watch A1GP or GP2 ffs.....

[Jem of the Shire 0]

F1 with standard chassis? not in a million years. In fact not ever please

[Quiet One 15]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59983

I think a part of me just died

I think I will revive my blog over this I am thazt furious, so watch this space.

I like the idea!

(Actualy I don't. I just like p**sing off Cav )

[DOF_power 0]

In case you haven't understood, because teams may/will NOT want/accept (and good for them) a standard chassi, then movable aero can/will be allowed (hopefully).

Yes I agree, standard chassi has nothing to do in F1. And I really want a bazooka and go firing the a## of this F*** idiot in case of standard chassi.

Movable active and passive aero means welcome back flexi wings and mass dampers, and perhaps even aero-brakes like on the McMerc SLR.

Now how about slicks and V10s and active suspensions ?!

[Jean Todt 4]

I support Max when it comes down to the question of Safety, or slow down cars when they are exceeding the limit or becoming too dangerous for the tracks they race. But when it comes down to cost cutting or making the sport more competitive like this, I certainly hate it. I think he is taking A1 as bench marks!

[Max Mosley 2]

"We [the FIA] believe that a standard chassis is the best solution," wrote Mosley in his letter. "The competition would then be between drivers armed with rival, fuel-efficient drive trains but otherwise in equal cars. Painted differently and with different sponsors, the cars would look as different as they do today to anyone but an expert."

Great news! Finally people are thinking with an open mind about this. I think he's almost spot-on throughout the whole article. (Btw I've always felt that he gets a bad press. His job is almost impossible imho.)

I've already addressed all of the points raised in this thread on Max's behalf, but why not do so again? (1) Saying "if F1 has the same rules as A1GP or GP2, then there will be no point to it" is like saying "there is no point to the football world cup because I can watch my 5-year old son play the same game in the park every Sunday morning". (2) The technology in F1 is not really that advanced, and as Max says, only an expert could tell us what really makes the McLaren better than the Renault. Frankly I don't think people enjoy the technology as much as they might think they do.

I think a part of me just died

Yup! Part of me just went to Heaven too.

[cavallino 2]

In case you haven't understood, because teams may/will NOT want/accept (and good for them) a standard chassi, then movable aero can/will be allowed (hopefully).

Yes I agree, standard chassi has nothing to do in F1. And I really want a bazooka and go firing the a## of this F*** idiot in case of standard chassi.

Movable active and passive aero means welcome back flexi wings and mass dampers, and perhaps even aero-brakes like on the McMerc SLR.

Wonderful, even more downforce, even faster cornering speeds. And the ridiculous notion that flexi wings will make the cars able to vertake each other - in case Max hasn't noticed, it is the car in front that causes the problem, and why on earth would the teams design cars that are easier to pass?????

Why are you obsessed with active suspensions, don't you think the cars are glued on hard enough already?

Now how about slicks and V10s and active suspensions ?!

Slicks are just a lack of willpower, they were supposed to come next year. V10s? Why? Just unfreeze the engine development, I don't really mind V8s.

Great news! Finally people are thinking with an open mind about this. I think he's almost spot-on throughout the whole article. (Btw I've always felt that he gets a bad press. His job is almost impossible imho.)

Oh he does, and it's not that the idiots who rule the paddock would have any clue how to run things, despite the way the criticize him. However standard chassis means that it is just another racing series. I am all for an exhibition race or two each year in spec cars, however spec cars are a riiculous idea. Technical developments are half the reason I watch F1.

It doens't take an expert to distinguish between the cars even if they were all painted gray which is what Max is suggesting.

I am going to look at that sell me your non F1 series thread

[Lalindra 0]

No wonder teams aren't interested in standard chasis. If there were standard chasis, there need not be teams. Just put every driver in the same car n tell them to race each other.

About the slowing down of speeds, it is always good to have more safety. But whats the point in slowing down cars dramatically? This is no racing. There need not be f1 then.

First they bring up this slick tyre issue which has already slowed down lap times considerably. Now their finding more ways to slow down. Damn...

Remember the seasons from 2002-2004 with 3.2 litre v12. The cars were going faster every year. That motivates the drivers to go even faster and break lap records which was really cool. These days we don't find any new lap record. We don't come even closer for that matter.

[Sato 0]

Great news! Finally people are thinking with an open mind about this. I think he's almost spot-on throughout the whole article. (Btw I've always felt that he gets a bad press. His job is almost impossible imho.)

I've already addressed all of the points raised in this thread on Max's behalf, but why not do so again? (1) Saying "if F1 has the same rules as A1GP or GP2, then there will be no point to it" is like saying "there is no point to the football world cup because I can watch my 5-year old son play the same game in the park every Sunday morning". (2) The technology in F1 is not really that advanced, and as Max says, only an expert could tell us what really makes the McLaren better than the Renault. Frankly I don't think people enjoy the technology as much as they might think they do.

Yup! Part of me just went to Heaven too.

You sir are a disgrace to the Murray Walker name

[Max Mosley 2]

Technical developments are half the reason I watch F1.

It's funny. I always find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time Cav! I agree with almost every individual point in your last post, but not the underlying point that spec cars wouldn't improve the show! Each to their own, but I just can't understand why the technology interests people that much. I gave up trying to have a rational discussion with DOF a while ago, but perhaps you can explain it to me.

I mean, there are very few great ideas in F1 as far as I can see. Isn't it more rewarding to go to lectures or even to just read Scientific American if you want great ideas from great minds? If you want a battle of wits, world championship chess or even freestyle rapping would be better imho.

Personally I watch F1 to see the world's best racing drivers race each other. From that pov it would be so much better for them to all have a level playing field.

No wonder teams aren't interested in standard chasis. If there were standard chasis, there need not be teams. Just put every driver in the same car n tell them to race each other.

Yes the vested interests will ruin it for the fans - just like they always do.

You sir are a disgrace to the Murray Walker name

Yeah guilty as charged, unless I'm very much mistaken...

[ykickamoocow 0]

You sir are a disgrace to the Murray Walker name

Yes im starting to think that he isnt the real Murray Walker. Is it possible he has been lying to us all these years

[Max Mosley 2]

Nah now I want to be the real Slim Shady. Can I please stand up?

Ahh OK, I'll come clean (-er than Ja-Rule jacking off when he showers?!) and admit it. I'm really Santa Claus riding Dancer and Prancer, but you wouldn't have believed it when I first joined...

[cavallino 2]

I mean, there are very few great ideas in F1 as far as I can see. Isn't it more rewarding to go to lectures or even to just read Scientific American if you want great ideas from great minds? If you want a battle of wits, world championship chess or even freestyle rapping would be better imho.

Scientific American? Please, those Americans can't do science any more than they can do entertainment, I can do far better than read that worthless rag.

It's like an engineering competition, and I can't think of something else remotely like it. Look at it this way - you are given a set of rules which form a challenging engineering problem that lets you draw from the latest developments in every possible form of engineering, and a huge budget to play with. That is heaven, it's an engineering battle of wits.

Personally I watch F1 to see the world's best racing drivers race each other. From that pov it would be so much better for them to all have a level playing field.

Where the other thing comes in - you don't always want the drivers in equal cars. Some of the most fascinating races are seeing what a driver manages to do with an inferior car. A spec series will also lead to duller racing. If a driver manages to get ahead, he can coast through the rest of the season picking up points, since it is very hard for anyone to catch up. We will never see the see saw development battles like 2006. Nor will the drivers be forced to continuously change their driving styles to adapt to changing cars.

[cavallino 2]

PS: Do I need a "This is a joke, don't get offended" disclaimer for the Sci Am thing?

[DOF_power 0]

Wonderful, even more downforce, even faster cornering speeds. And the ridiculous notion that flexi wings will make the cars able to vertake each other - in case Max hasn't noticed, it is the car in front that causes the problem, and why on earth would the teams design cars that are easier to pass?????

They can. No more compromise winglets can mean we can get some sliptream and drop some dirty air cause by them. And it goes beyond flexi wings.

Why are you obsessed with active suspensions, don't you think the cars are glued on hard enough already?

It's not as simple as that. They actually turn the car in on big movable aero part, meaning there was no need for winglets witch produce dirty air witch destroyed overtaking.

Slicks are just a lack of willpower, they were supposed to come next year. V10s? Why? Just unfreeze the engine development, I don't really mind V8s.

Nope, slicks are not lack of will power, they are superior mecanical grip, witch we desperatly need. When Max took away the mecanical grip, the only solution was aero grip to compensate, thus the winglets and resulting vibration stream.

The V8 are compromissed by their nature vs. the V10s.

They represent a natural born retared architecture, just like the V12s, inferior to the V10.

The reason is their critical vibration area. At V10 it's between 12 to 14000 rpms. Once over this V10s are free to rev and pump up the power. At V8s this starts at 16000 and it never ends. Meaning more rpms leads to more reinforcement meaning more weight and potential cooling and packaging problems.

That why the 19k V8s are no lighter than the V10s.

And the minimum weight required (higher than on V10s) and even 19k limitation in a way makes sense.

Because the V8 is really compromised. Yes can reach 30k rpms and pump monstrous amount of power, but they'll be heavier than V16s, and give a lot of headakes.

The V10 siply doesn't have this problem, and as opposed to the V12s it won't have the friction and inertia problems.

That's why everyone chosed V10s, they were or could be lighter that the V8s, more powerful than the V12s, and virtualy inifinitly tunable.

Oh he does, and it's not that the idiots who rule the paddock would have any clue how to run things, despite the way the criticize him. However standard chassis means that it is just another racing series. I am all for an exhibition race or two each year in spec cars, however spec cars are a riiculous idea. Technical developments are half the reason I watch F1.

It doens't take an expert to distinguish between the cars even if they were all painted gray which is what Max is suggesting.

I am going to look at that sell me your non F1 series thread

The spec chassi would mean the death of GP racing. Hopefully it won't happen.

[Max Mosley 2]

Scientific American? Please, those Americans can't do science any more than they can do entertainment, I can do far better than read that worthless rag.

Sure, like just going to lectures, or reading Feynman, but I still like SA! US entertainment is entertaining for all the wrong reasons, but I respect their science.

It's like an engineering competition, and I can't think of something else remotely like it. Look at it this way - you are given a set of rules which form a challenging engineering problem that lets you draw from the latest developments in every possible form of engineering, and a huge budget to play with. That is heaven, it's an engineering battle of wits.

Yeah I can see that it might be mildly interesting from that pov, and it perhaps is in a class of its own in that respect. But still, it doesn't excite me as much as the driver aspect of the sport. I still think the ideas in F1 are mediocre compared to those in even Scientific American, let alone Feynman or our lectures. And what's more, you can't really appreciate them very easily or in any depth, like you can in a proper science lecture say. Whereas in a top level chess match you can really understand the thought processes involved, with a commentator, in F1 all you really get is the answer: Ferrari's faster or McLaren's faster. And in the process, for me at least, the engineering battle that goes on in private destroys the driver battle because we can't have a fair contest.

Where the other thing comes in - you don't always want the drivers in equal cars. Some of the most fascinating races are seeing what a driver manages to do with an inferior car. A spec series will also lead to duller racing. If a driver manages to get ahead, he can coast through the rest of the season picking up points, since it is very hard for anyone to catch up. We will never see the see saw development battles like 2006. Nor will the drivers be forced to continuously change their driving styles to adapt to changing cars.

You don't always want equal cars, it's true, but on average I think it would give us much closer and entertaining racing. I mean, it would be much less likely that any driver would "get ahead" as happened in 2006 in the first place. Not only that but it would be a fair contest.

[cavallino 2]

PS: Do I need a "This is a joke, don't get offended" disclaimer for the Sci Am thing?

Maybe I should, if you fell for it Murray, imagine when them 'Mercuns get here

I'll rpely to the rest later.

[Max Mosley 2]

Well one never knows with you Cav! But I appreciate the friendly joke at the Yanks' expense!

[monza gorilla 1]

Now then Muzza, young feller me lad, if we go to a standard chassis then what differentiates F1 from CCWS?

[aussief1 4]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59983

I think a part of me just died

I think I will revive my blog over this I am thazt furious, so watch this space.

"Mad Max" the idiot needs to be removed ASAP!! Surely the FIA can overturn his current contract which is current through to 2009 I think.

It's funny to think that the one saving grace that we might have outside the teams themselves is Bernie. He has been very quiet over the issues Max is talking about.

If we wanted to watch standard cars, we'd watch A1GP or GP2 ffs.....

Agree, F1 is about everything that isn't standard. F1 is about custom engineering and development at the highest level. This idea of having standard cars is against the very DNA of Formula One.

Just F@#k off Max, go and wreck another sport you twit.

[DOF_power 0]

...

Yeah I can see that it might be mildly interesting from that pov, and it perhaps is in a class of its own in that respect. But still, it doesn't excite me as much as the driver aspect of the sport. I still think the ideas in F1 are mediocre compared to those in even Scientific American, let alone Feynman or our lectures. And what's more, you can't really appreciate them very easily or in any depth, like you can in a proper science lecture say. Whereas in a top level chess match you can really understand the thought processes involved, with a commentator, in F1 all you really get is the answer: Ferrari's faster or McLaren's faster. And in the process, for me at least, the engineering battle that goes on in private destroys the driver battle because we can't have a fair contest.

...

You don't always want equal cars, it's true, but on average I think it would give us much closer and entertaining racing. I mean, it would be much less likely that any driver would "get ahead" as happened in 2006 in the first place. Not only that but it would be a fair contest.

The engineering battle was always a part of the DNA of GP/F1. It was never meant to be a spec series.

GP/F1 isn't here justify itself to Scientific American, Feynman or your lectures.

It isn't here to save the world.

It isn't here to be contained.

It isn't here to promote stagantion.

It's isn't here to comfort the losers.

It isn't here to reduce everyone to a loser status, and seek the lesser loser, like the spec series do.

This struggle between Ferrari and McLaren, this push to out edge each other, involving the team, drivers, man-machine ... this is the essence of GP racing.

When/if this will be gone, Grand Prix Racing will be dead.

[Max Mosley 2]

Now then Muzza, young feller me lad, if we go to a standard chassis then what differentiates F1 from CCWS?

Ah, is this your first post for quite some time Russ? Welcome back, if so, me ol' mucker.

The reason I watch F1 is the quality of the driving, which I believe is higher than any other open wheel series, including CCWS. Most people outside of the US, and plenty there too, think the quality of driving is highest in F1 and that's why F1 is so popular around the world imho, not because normal people really care about traction control or fancy aerodynamics. I'm not saying CCWS doesn't have any good drivers because it clearly does, but overall the standard is lower. Many of the top drivers there are F1 rejects, and many of the other top drivers have left for other series, like the IRL, unfortunately.

On a slightly deeper note, "differentiation" is only good if it puts us in a positive light. Being perceived to have better drivers is enough to win the ratings war so apart from the slightly backward and insular US sporting scene, F1 does win. If only CCWS did have the best drivers - I'd jump for joy and change allegiance in a flash. But drivers competing in unequal cars is a massive turn off for millions of potential viewers, despite some minor technical interest for a few enthusiasts. Surely when you talk about F1 to friends and relatives one of the first things they ask is "does the winning driver actually deserve to win in F1 or is it all down to the car"? This is the single most common response I get when I try to convey some enthusiasm about motorsport, and frankly I think they have a point. Conversely, even most reasonably committed F1 fans know very little about the technology. If you want proof look at the Technical subforum here (on one of the best F1 websites!) and see (1) how many people post there regularly and (2) how well-informed the posts are - I mean, apart from people like Mike there really aren't that many people who know much at all. Half the people there didn't know the difference between downforce and drag recently!

Anyway, I think there is the potential to differentiate ourselves further, in a positive way, by having not only a single chassis but no teams at all. The drivers would turn up and be issued with identical equipment from the FIA or some third party. This would be unique as far as I know, and would have so many benefits for F1, as I've listed elsewhere.

[DOF_power 0]

This has not with GP racing, ... what you are proposing.

It's absolute non-sense.

I repeat myself, a spec series reduces everyone to a loser status, and seeks to reward lesser loser.

[Niall McBride 0]

i'd like it if they stripped the fancy bodywork and the extra bits on the front wings, and i don't like the way they made the rear wings wider at the sides in 2005. maybe if these were done overtaking would be possible again, the cars are just too tame these days with the huge amounts of grip