Creationists Go Round And Round

[HandyNZL 1]

I have no more ability to understand the machinery that is the universe or the reasons for its existance than a single celled organism has the ability to comprehend a game of cricket, so I certainly do not claim that anyone who has a sense of spirituality or connection with a greater power/purpose is an idiot. That being said, the man-made, corrupted morass of congealed mucous that is organized religion is what gets me fired up.

Here are my problems with organized religion:

1. Arrogance.

Do you really think it is possible that an intelligence that supposedly created the ENTIRE universe and everything in it could possibly give a flip that little Tommy had sex before he was married or that he stole a cupcake from the grocery store??!! The vast infinite universe was created only for us and that "god" is deeply interested in the pathetic drama that is occurring on this little blue speck of dust?

2. Pettiness.

God created us so we could worship him? That sucks! We have to follow these very particular and specific rules and rituals or we burn for all eternity? Sounds like god is a kid with a complex to me. If your cancer goes into remission, you thank god for his grace - yet, if an asteroid vaporizes a childrens hospital, its gods will. It seems like he makes out like a hero no matter what.

3. Infallibility.

Because of the nature of faith, there is no way to prove god doesn't exist. If some major scientific breakthrough showed us that it is impossible for god to exist, or aliens landed on earth and told us that we were just some kids science project that went wrong, a person of faith would just say that god wanted it to appear that way. He can't lose! I could tell you that there are 6 cyborg, neo-nazi hookers floating around every person, all the time, but they are invisible and there is no way to detect them. If I can convince enough people to believe this, I have a religion.

4. (My favorite) Hypocracy

I used to know this girl who was a fanatic in a particular faith (to stay PC, I won't name it). She was not allowed by her parents to attend science class because they did not believe in molecules or some such nonsense. They completely shunned and denounced all forms of science, yet they dropped their daughter off to school in their big SUV and microwaved their lunch and used their cell phones. Do they think those things are powered by god? If they lived in a cave and hunted their own food, I would give them credit. On the other hand, scientists are the first to admit that they are wrong if new data emerges to prove otherwise. Thats the nature of science - to constantly re-examine and refine theories in search of the elusive and often unattainable truth.

So believe who/what you want! Just don't try to sell it to me.

Apart from your obvious silly founded support in Ferrari well written

[YHR 0]

I have no more ability to understand the machinery that is the universe or the reasons for its existance than a single celled organism has the ability to comprehend a game of cricket, so I certainly do not claim that anyone who has a sense of spirituality or connection with a greater power/purpose is an idiot. That being said, the man-made, corrupted morass of congealed mucous that is organized religion is what gets me fired up.

Here are my problems with organized religion:

1. Arrogance.

Do you really think it is possible that an intelligence that supposedly created the ENTIRE universe and everything in it could possibly give a flip that little Tommy had sex before he was married or that he stole a cupcake from the grocery store??!! The vast infinite universe was created only for us and that "god" is deeply interested in the pathetic drama that is occurring on this little blue speck of dust?

2. Pettiness.

God created us so we could worship him? That sucks! We have to follow these very particular and specific rules and rituals or we burn for all eternity? Sounds like god is a kid with a complex to me. If your cancer goes into remission, you thank god for his grace - yet, if an asteroid vaporizes a childrens hospital, its gods will. It seems like he makes out like a hero no matter what.

3. Infallibility.

Because of the nature of faith, there is no way to prove god doesn't exist. If some major scientific breakthrough showed us that it is impossible for god to exist, or aliens landed on earth and told us that we were just some kids science project that went wrong, a person of faith would just say that god wanted it to appear that way. He can't lose! I could tell you that there are 6 cyborg, neo-nazi hookers floating around every person, all the time, but they are invisible and there is no way to detect them. If I can convince enough people to believe this, I have a religion.

4. (My favorite) Hypocracy

I used to know this girl who was a fanatic in a particular faith (to stay PC, I won't name it). She was not allowed by her parents to attend science class because they did not believe in molecules or some such nonsense. They completely shunned and denounced all forms of science, yet they dropped their daughter off to school in their big SUV and microwaved their lunch and used their cell phones. Do they think those things are powered by god? If they lived in a cave and hunted their own food, I would give them credit. On the other hand, scientists are the first to admit that they are wrong if new data emerges to prove otherwise. Thats the nature of science - to constantly re-examine and refine theories in search of the elusive and often unattainable truth.

So believe who/what you want! Just don't try to sell it to me.

I can't argue about your first point. I agree that mankind has made a horrible mess of organized religion on the most part. We've messed up the messages so badly that you can hardly question people who turn away from it. The problem I see is that the good intent has been poorly represented and God takes the fall. There is a message in the bible about that. Those that have screwed up the word will be held accountable. Extremists always shed a poor light on any cause, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I think the universe was created for us. The message is not about punishment but of "rules for successful living". There is a lot of common sense and psychological truths in what the Bible professes. A lot of personal and emotional pain can be prevented by following God's laws for clean living. As I mentioned, I have come to Christianity very late. With the benefit of hindsight of 50 years of life, I read odd passages in the Bible that astound me. I keep saying, why didn't somebody tell me about this." The message is also about freedom of choice, (God or not) and forgiveness when we mess up. If you are a Dad, I believe the way you feel about your kids is how God feels about us. Sometimes proud, sometimes angry, but always there is love. I think He created us because he wanted us, just like the family who wants to adopt a child. You don't have to follow any rituals. You just need to place your trust in Him. You can be a Christian and never set foot in a church if you want. My family and I did it for years.

In short all the things you hate most about religion are results of man's incompetence and intolerance. My message is simple. Don't blame God for the inherent wickedness of man. Greed, power corruption are all human weaknesses, and they have abused religion in unspeakable ways. Time and time again, people use examples of this to denounce God, when in fact it is the weakness of man that is to blame.

Obviously this has been a huge diversion from F1, and the debate is endless. It could go on forever, and I just don't have the time and energy to keep the discussion at this level. I realize this is not necessarily the place to have this conversation as well. I set out last night to look up a bunch of stuff that I had read before, to respond to "Quiet One's" points, but I figured it's all out there if anyone wants to find it for themselves. And even if I had responded in great detail, it would only be boring for most, and of no effect for those who might have their minds already made up.

My message is simple.

Question what you have been taught. You might be surprised on what shakey ground some of the scientific theories are based. I am not out to paint the scientific community with the same brush. There are some sound truthful principles in place. I think for instance, micro-evolution is very much a reality. Dogs can be bred together to be smaller, or taller, or a different color, but you can't breed dogs together to produce a bird. Science is wonderful and essential though. I love my electricity, TV, etc.

Don't blame God for the weakness of mankind. That is a clear message in the bible. Man is inherently sinful, So why be surprised by the atrocities that are committed under the guise of religion or for any other reason? It's kind of like "DUH" what do you expect?!

Always keep an open mind, which leads to the first point again. Question everything. Religion, Science or whatever. I personally have made some discoveries about educational doctrine that really make me upset. Things that have been taught to the masses as truths should have had a few disclaimers attached, but they never did. There are some very interesting articles about carbon dating and radiometric dating that make you realize the accuracy of the techniques is based on some pretty big assumptions. As soon as you have to make one assumption, one "leap of faith", then this fact should be presented, but it seldom is. So theories are taught, and in time, the assumptions made to produce these theories are conveniently set aside and not taught along with the theory. And off we merrily go, down the garden path.....printing textbooks as fast as we can.

[maure 1]

I can't argue about your first point. I agree that mankind has made a horrible mess of organized religion on the most part. We've messed up the messages so badly that you can hardly question people who turn away from it. The problem I see is that the good intent has been poorly represented and God takes the fall. There is a message in the bible about that. Those that have screwed up the word will be held accountable. Extremists always shed a poor light on any cause, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I think the universe was created for us. The message is not about punishment but of "rules for successful living". There is a lot of common sense and psychological truths in what the Bible professes. A lot of personal and emotional pain can be prevented by following God's laws for clean living. As I mentioned, I have come to Christianity very late. With the benefit of hindsight of 50 years of life, I read odd passages in the Bible that astound me. I keep saying, why didn't somebody tell me about this." The message is also about freedom of choice, (God or not) and forgiveness when we mess up. If you are a Dad, I believe the way you feel about your kids is how God feels about us. Sometimes proud, sometimes angry, but always there is love. I think He created us because he wanted us, just like the family who wants to adopt a child. You don't have to follow any rituals. You just need to place your trust in Him. You can be a Christian and never set foot in a church if you want. My family and I did it for years.

In short all the things you hate most about religion are results of man's incompetence and intolerance. My message is simple. Don't blame God for the inherent wickedness of man. Greed, power corruption are all human weaknesses, and they have abused religion in unspeakable ways. Time and time again, people use examples of this to denounce God, when in fact it is the weakness of man that is to blame.

Obviously this has been a huge diversion from F1, and the debate is endless. It could go on forever, and I just don't have the time and energy to keep the discussion at this level. I realize this is not necessarily the place to have this conversation as well. I set out last night to look up a bunch of stuff that I had read before, to respond to "Quiet One's" points, but I figured it's all out there if anyone wants to find it for themselves. And even if I had responded in great detail, it would only be boring for most, and of no effect for those who might have their minds already made up.

My message is simple.

Question what you have been taught. You might be surprised on what shakey ground some of the scientific theories are based. I am not out to paint the scientific community with the same brush. There are some sound truthful principles in place. I think for instance, micro-evolution is very much a reality. Dogs can be bred together to be smaller, or taller, or a different color, but you can't breed dogs together to produce a bird. Science is wonderful and essential though. I love my electricity, TV, etc.

Don't blame God for the weakness of mankind. That is a clear message in the bible. Man is inherently sinful, So why be surprised by the atrocities that are committed under the guise of religion or for any other reason? It's kind of like "DUH" what do you expect?!

Always keep an open mind, which leads to the first point again. Question everything. Religion, Science or whatever. I personally have made some discoveries about educational doctrine that really make me upset. Things that have been taught to the masses as truths should have had a few disclaimers attached, but they never did. There are some very interesting articles about carbon dating and radiometric dating that make you realize the accuracy of the techniques is based on some pretty big assumptions. As soon as you have to make one assumption, one "leap of faith", then this fact should be presented, but it seldom is. So theories are taught, and in time, the assumptions made to produce these theories are conveniently set aside and not taught along with the theory. And off we merrily go, down the garden path.....printing textbooks as fast as we can.

... and you keep taking shots at science to support religous beliefs...

Don't you realize that if _you_ question what you have been taught, your religous beliefs will go out of the window after some honest work? It is meant to be that way and that implies nothing being wrong with religion _because_ religion does not need to make sense. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will be confortable with your faith regardless of what science has to say.

Here is an example of what "questionning" is getting you into. Your rejection of the theory of evolution is faulty from A to Z, that is, you show an utter missunderstanding of the theory. Your talk of the "missing link" is a case and point. First, such alledged missing link is _not_ necessary for the theory of evolution to make sense. Second, lack of evidence of historical change is _far_far_far_ more damaging for creationism than for the theory of evolution.

Why is that so? Because there is absolutely no evidence of historical permanence. Since creationist deny evolution, where are the 2 million old remain of modern looking humans? Or the 60 million year old remains of modern looking humans? The truth is that if one goes back a few hundred thousand years, you start to find monkey looking people... and not a single modern looking human being. Absence of evidence is always always always going to be more damaging to religion than to science (as it should be and nothing wrong with it). Science can recover from errors because, as a matter of fact, science requires errors to advance. Religion cannot recover from errors by virtue of faith and the divine origin of its precepts.

You have an inquisitive mind and it is going to get you into trouble with your religion if you continue to dig around like this.... again, let science be science and religion be religion. Have faith... if that is your inclination. Use your heart, perhaps your soul, never ever your mind.

[Minchia! 0]

Apart from your obvious silly founded support in Ferrari well written

Silly???!!!

BLASPHEMER!!

If you promise to repent I will forgive you in the name of the Massa, the Todt and the Prancing Pony.

[Minchia! 0]

Yes, I think the universe was created for us. The message is not about punishment but of "rules for successful living". There is a lot of common sense and psychological truths in what the Bible professes. A lot of personal and emotional pain can be prevented by following God's laws for clean living. As I mentioned, I have come to Christianity very late. With the benefit of hindsight of 50 years of life, I read odd passages in the Bible that astound me. I keep saying, why didn't somebody tell me about this." The message is also about freedom of choice, (God or not) and forgiveness when we mess up. If you are a Dad, I believe the way you feel about your kids is how God feels about us. Sometimes proud, sometimes angry, but always there is love. I think He created us because he wanted us, just like the family who wants to adopt a child. You don't have to follow any rituals. You just need to place your trust in Him. You can be a Christian and never set foot in a church if you want. My family and I did it for years.

These things are YOUR belief, so they make sense to you. Thats the problem. There are many versions of Christianity that say if you dont drink the sacrimental wine X amount of times a month, you aren't saved, Or that you should stone your wife if she is unfaithful. Or that you need to handle snakes and speak in tounges to be saved. How do YOU know your version is the correct one? There are many a suicide bomber that think they are doing gods will. (Not that I would EVER defend one of them!) I have never blindly accepted a scientific theory as the indisputible truth, but at least I can experimentaly or mathmatically verify (in most cases) the theory of an observed phenomenon.

[YHR 0]

... and you keep taking shots at science to support religous beliefs...

Don't you realize that if _you_ question what you have been taught, your religous beliefs will go out of the window after some honest work? It is meant to be that way and that implies nothing being wrong with religion _because_ religion does not need to make sense. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will be confortable with your faith regardless of what science has to say.

Here is an example of what "questionning" is getting you into. Your rejection of the theory of evolution is faulty from A to Z, that is, you show an utter missunderstanding of the theory. Your talk of the "missing link" is a case and point. First, such alledged missing link is _not_ necessary for the theory of evolution to make sense. Second, lack of evidence of historical change is _far_far_far_ more damaging for creationism than for the theory of evolution.

Why is that so? Because there is absolutely no evidence of historical permanence. Since creationist deny evolution, where are the 2 million old remain of modern looking humans? Or the 60 million year old remains of modern looking humans? The truth is that if one goes back a few hundred thousand years, you start to find monkey looking people... and not a single modern looking human being. Absence of evidence is always always always going to be more damaging to religion than to science (as it should be and nothing wrong with it). Science can recover from errors because, as a matter of fact, science requires errors to advance. Religion cannot recover from errors by virtue of faith and the divine origin of its precepts.

You have an inquisitive mind and it is going to get you into trouble with your religion if you continue to dig around like this.... again, let science be science and religion be religion. Have faith... if that is your inclination. Use your heart, perhaps your soul, never ever your mind.

The Bible says we should question everything and keep what is good. (I think that means I should use my mind). I don't think we are going to find anything, (and haven't so far) that will get me in trouble with my beliefs. Actually, the more I investigate, the stronger my faith becomes, because I realize that I don't have to base it on just a feeling. As we have already agreed, nobody really knows for sure, and many scientists are now admitting that evolution doesn't add up. What about the problems with dating methods? Obviously there is enough controversy to fuel a debate amongst people much smarter than you or me.... There's way too big of a question mark there for me to bet the farm on 60 million years. The monkeys are monkeys (always have been), and the people are people. We just have to agree to disagree, and wait and see I guess. In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading.

[HandyNZL 1]

The Bible says we should question everything and keep what is good. (I think that means I should use my mind). I don't think we are going to find anything, (and haven't so far) that will get me in trouble with my beliefs. Actually, the more I investigate, the stronger my faith becomes, because I realize that I don't have to base it on just a feeling. As we have already agreed, nobody really knows for sure, and many scientists are now admitting that evolution doesn't add up. What about the problems with dating methods? Obviously there is enough controversy to fuel a debate amongst people much smarter than you or me.... There's way too big of a question mark there for me to bet the farm on 60 million years. The monkeys are monkeys (always have been), and the people are people. We just have to agree to disagree, and wait and see I guess. In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading.

You never have a problem if you only date hot girls

[maure 1]

The Bible says we should question everything and keep what is good. (I think that means I should use my mind). I don't think we are going to find anything, (and haven't so far) that will get me in trouble with my beliefs. Actually, the more I investigate, the stronger my faith becomes, because I realize that I don't have to base it on just a feeling. As we have already agreed, nobody really knows for sure, and many scientists are now admitting that evolution doesn't add up. What about the problems with dating methods? Obviously there is enough controversy to fuel a debate amongst people much smarter than you or me.... There's way too big of a question mark there for me to bet the farm on 60 million years. The monkeys are monkeys (always have been), and the people are people. We just have to agree to disagree, and wait and see I guess. In the meantime, I'm going to keep reading.

Sadly, your claim that the bible says you should question everything is not only false but it is perverse. The bible does not ask you to question the existence of god, the ten commandments, the resurrection of christ, etc, etc, and, of course, you are not told to challenge the veridity of the bible itself. If you were entitled to question the word of god, where would your faith be?

Unfortunately, your claims on science are equally misguided. Not only you challenge evolution without any rational evidence, now you try to discredit radiometric dating (again, without any evidence). Is it inaccurate? By thousands of years? By millions? Your claim is that it cannot distinguish 1,000 year old remains from 100 million year old remains. Your position is only getting more and more extreme. First, biology and, now, physics. What is next? Calculus? Chemistry? Medicine? Take a good look at what you are doing... you are forcing yourself into an extreme position where you are going to need to deny everything to keep you faith afloat.

Anyway, only you know why you gamble your faith on these fruitless pursuits... My friendly advice remains, have faith or face the consequences.

[Max Mosley 2]

Sadly, your claim that the bible says you should question everything is not only false but it is perverse. The bible does not ask you to question the existence of god, the ten commandments, the resurrection of christ, etc, etc, and, of course, you are not told to challenge the veridity of the bible itself. If you were entitled to question the word of god, where would your faith be?

Unfortunately, your claims on science are equally misguided. Not only you challenge evolution without any rational evidence, now you try to discredit radiometric dating (again, without any evidence). Is it inaccurate? By thousands of years? By millions? Your claim is that it cannot distinguish 1,000 year old remains from 100 million year old remains. Your position is only getting more and more extreme. First, biology and, now, physics. What is next? Calculus? Chemistry? Medicine? Take a good look at what you are doing... you are forcing yourself into an extreme position where you are going to need to deny everything to keep you faith afloat.

Anyway, only you know why you gamble your faith on these fruitless pursuits... My friendly advice remains, have faith or face the consequences.

Actually I often think it's cruel to debate this with Christians like YHR. He's so badly misinformed it's like taking candy from a baby, as Martin Brundle would say. I agree with your scientific points, but I think you're wrong to say there's no place for thinking/questioning in religion. Personally I think it's only OK to have faith in something that doesn't contradict your own intelligence and conscience.

YHR:

You keeping saying you keep reading, but your choice of reading material must be woefully poor. You're going against the huge majority of the scientific community, and the tiny minority are mainly non-experts who bend science to fit their preconceived notions of how things ought to be. About 40% of scientists in America are religious, yet virtually no scientists believe in creationism. Let's look at a survey of science professors' opinions in Ohio.

Ohio is a very religious place, and Intelligent Design is taught on and off in school science lessons. So it's one of the most religious parts of the developed world. Almost certainly more than 40% of the science professors at the secular and religious colleges surveyed are Christians, and 84% of the professors believed that evolution was compatible with Christianity, so they are hardly anti-religious. But even there, 93% said that there wasn't any valid scientific evidence or theory whatsoever that challenged evolution; only 4% said there was some evidence that did so, and obviously that does not mean they didn't still think evolution was the best theory available. When asked about Intelligent Design, 90% said there was absolutely no valid science behind it whatsoever; only 2% said it was strongly supported by evidence.

You're also going against the American legal system, because it famously ruled that "irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large". The judge, a Republican and a Churchgoer, went on to say that Intelligent Design is "a religious alternative [to evolution] masquerading as a scientific theory".

So the above is what experts think - and I've really been generous to look at a particularly religious group of scientists, and a Christian judge. But your own thoughts deserve a reply too. You mentioned that there are "proposals" for how the eye might have evolved, but no definitive answer or proof. I agree, but that means it is not irreducibly complex! If we can imagine how it might have evolved, then evolution can in principle explain it. You also mentioned probability arguments against evolution, but these are easy to refute too. I've found a fairly easy-going article on it that you might care to read. The author is a professor of maths, and he concludes:

anti-evolutionists have yet to devise an argument based on probability theory that has any merit at all. It is nearly certain they never will. Upon hearing a creationist mention probability in his argument, you can, in good conscience, ignore him.

Anyway, I encourage you to read the article because he clearly explains the reasons why the creationists' calculations are not valid.

[Minchia! 0]

Another good piece to read is "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris. Its very short and to the point. It is honest and doesn't contain the admittedly harsh and sometimes condescending tone of other atheist writers (like Dawkins). It's a short read but it asks the right questions, stirring your curiosity to do a little research of your own.

Here is another nail in the coffin of young earth creationists:

I have frequently used the arguments in the above video (which has more than one part if you have the patience) but never have seen them in a nice little visual package like this.

That is what I love about the language of mathmatics. You can't really mess with it or bad things start happening to the fabric of reality which could really ruin your day.

[Schumikonen 2]

Actually I often think it's cruel to debate this with Christians like YHR. He's so badly misinformed it's like taking candy from a baby, as Martin Brundle would say. I agree with your scientific points, but I think you're wrong to say there's no place for thinking/questioning in religion. Personally I think it's only OK to have faith in something that doesn't contradict your own intelligence and conscience.

I don't think so, I've seen so many things that contradict my own inteligence and I still have faith, I believe now more than ever because I am a withness of things that are just impossible to explain, like I said before I saw a leg growing in front of my eyes and it was a leg from a known person, it wasn't an actress, she had a shorter leg and she was healed in front of me and I've seen many other healings or miracles if you want to call it so, my wife, my daugther, my mother, an uncle and recently I had my own healing experience, I had an infected tooh and now I have no insurance since I move to Baltimore and had no enough money to go to a dentist, I was desperate, in pain and my face was swollen, the only thing I could do was pray I was getting that infection almost every other month and it was the second time it ws happening to me in this city I noticed that it was becoming more frecuent, one night I when to pray, I got up and when to bed a few seconds later I felt like something getting through the swollen part of my face and coming out again, I figure out like a big needle but at that moment I thought it was my imagination until I noticed that I had my mouth full of blood and other nasty things, since that day I haven't had any problem with my tooh and that was several months ago, I a convinced I was healed that night, maybe you will say that it was my mind who healed my tooh and think it was God who healed me, it took me some months to be sure that I was healed as it was a recurrent problem but the time passed and my tooh is ok, my tooh it was getting darker because of this problem and that stood like this but no more pain, no more swollen face, I am healed tkanks to God, I can not explain but I accept it, I was healed by God but I can not add anything else to this to try to find an answer to this, all I care right now is that i prayed and now I am healed, the only thing I can add to this is that I prayed fro the same problem many times before and nothing happened, why it happened now? just because God wanted it to be that night the night of my healing.

[HandyNZL 1]

It's called an absess that burst. That's all.

[YHR 0]

As I said I haven't got the energy to debate this. There is no reason to believe anything is going to be accomplished by carrying this on.

I have my faith, but I know others don't. I thought that maybe by throwing out some ideas, that it would make people at least consider that there are alternative ideas out there. I am quite comfortable reading and considering anything. I never set out to prove anything other than to point out that evolution is a theory. When it is proven as law, let me know. I also presented some alternate opinions on carbon dating and radiometric dating. I don't know enough yet to debate this at any great length. I haven't made up my mind on this one yet. Just an interesting point of view. Other opinions are out there, and at first read they seem plausible. IF you are searching for truth it is far better to consider than to dismiss out of hand. Everyone can find the information and investigate it for themselves, hopefully with an open mind. If not, then all you can do is take someone else's word, so hopefully you trust the source.

What if??

God is outside of time. This concept is not even considered by science. All science knows are the laws that are present today in the conditions that we exist in. Change the constants that we trust and see what happens to science and the conclusions drawn from it. None of us can go back to the beginning to see what really occurred, so it's all just extrapolation backwards from what we see today. There is a lot of misinformation out there, that is for sure.

The response of the secular scientific community to religion is based on the fact that they are not willing to accept anything that they can't measure. I don't blame them for this, nor do I think less of people who agree with them. That would be wrong. Science is the only tool we have as we try to make sense of it all. I just think science is doing mankind a disservice by being so linear. They seem to have an end in mind, and I wish it wasn't so. They are so sure they are right, but really we know so little, so why be so arrogant about it?. Anyone who tries to think outside their box is ridiculed, and put down.

And now to the real issue. Decency and respect for other opinions. I am always amazed how combative people get over this. It makes no sense to me. There is no need to belittle folks and question their intelligence. Candy from a baby, oh please. I think in some respects, I've opened my mind to other possibilities, not governed by our generally accepted science. That's all I'm asking you to do. Consider other possibilities Judging from the reactions, people must feel threatened by this.

You are willing to put all your trust in humans. After all, to you and others, what else is there. I was just hoping to expand the horizon.

[Schumikonen 2]

It's called an absess that burst. That's all.

probably but it didn't burst for years, I got that because of a bad job done by a student in 1988, I started having this "Absess" problem from more or less 1993, always thinking that it was going to disapear by itself, I never felt this wierd object "touching" or crossing through my face, I felt it once after a prayer and good bye problem, I agree that it burst but this time was forever, the swollen part of my face was so big that I had a ball inside my mouth, I went to a dentist when i had that problem and he opened that ball by the inside taking all that stuff out but he told me that he could not treat me because of the infection and sent me to take some antibiotics that didn't work, I went to another dentist here in USA and they told I need to see an speacialist to know how bad that infection was and that maybe it wa affecting other parts of my face because it was so big, they told me I need to pay al least 10,000 dollars to get it done, that was without the specialist who would charge me separately, yes I still agree that it burst by itself, but considering all this that busrting is a miracle and didn't have to pay 10,000 for it, I still got the papers for that visit to the dentist, so praise the Lord that it burst.

[maure 1]

Actually I often think it's cruel to debate this with Christians like YHR. He's so badly misinformed it's like taking candy from a baby, as Martin Brundle would say. I agree with your scientific points, but I think you're wrong to say there's no place for thinking/questioning in religion. Personally I think it's only OK to have faith in something that doesn't contradict your own intelligence and conscience.

Faith and knowledge are incompatible becuase faith requires trust on unknowable things. If they were knowable, they would not require faith.

When I speak of not thinking or questioning, I am not talking about shutting down one's brain but about the necessity to avoid questioning the dogmas and precepts of one's religion. I don't mean to say that it is impossible for you to question your religion. I mean to say that if you do so with honesty, you will eventually give up on your faith. Again, this is not because there is something wrong with religion but because religion is meant to be followed not understood.

Observe what YHR says. He demands "When it is proven as law, let me know". Image if he were to apply the same demands of proof to his religion. Thus, my advice to him.. have faith and let it go.

As I said I haven't got the energy to debate this. There is no reason to believe anything is going to be accomplished by carrying this on.

I have my faith, but I know others don't. I thought that maybe by throwing out some ideas, that it would make people at least consider that there are alternative ideas out there. I am quite comfortable reading and considering anything. I never set out to prove anything other than to point out that evolution is a theory. When it is proven as law, let me know. I also presented some alternate opinions on carbon dating and radiometric dating. I don't know enough yet to debate this at any great length. I haven't made up my mind on this one yet. Just an interesting point of view. Other opinions are out there, and at first read they seem plausible. IF you are searching for truth it is far better to consider than to dismiss out of hand. Everyone can find the information and investigate it for themselves, hopefully with an open mind. If not, then all you can do is take someone else's word, so hopefully you trust the source.

What if??

God is outside of time. This concept is not even considered by science. All science knows are the laws that are present today in the conditions that we exist in. Change the constants that we trust and see what happens to science and the conclusions drawn from it. None of us can go back to the beginning to see what really occurred, so it's all just extrapolation backwards from what we see today. There is a lot of misinformation out there, that is for sure.

The response of the secular scientific community to religion is based on the fact that they are not willing to accept anything that they can't measure. I don't blame them for this, nor do I think less of people who agree with them. That would be wrong. Science is the only tool we have as we try to make sense of it all. I just think science is doing mankind a disservice by being so linear. They seem to have an end in mind, and I wish it wasn't so. They are so sure they are right, but really we know so little, so why be so arrogant about it?. Anyone who tries to think outside their box is ridiculed, and put down.

And now to the real issue. Decency and respect for other opinions. I am always amazed how combative people get over this. It makes no sense to me. There is no need to belittle folks and question their intelligence. Candy from a baby, oh please. I think in some respects, I've opened my mind to other possibilities, not governed by our generally accepted science. That's all I'm asking you to do. Consider other possibilities Judging from the reactions, people must feel threatened by this.

You are willing to put all your trust in humans. After all, to you and others, what else is there. I was just hoping to expand the horizon.

In all truth, you are the one denying possibilities other than ones offered by your religion. You say this once and again. You believe what you believe without need for proof or explanation while everything else is suspect or erroneous, again without need for proof or explanation. Your mistake is not on your faith but on your necessity to undermine all else to maintain your faith.

Further, your claim that "I've opened my mind to other possibilities" is, again, perverse. Are you saying that the existence of god and the veridity of the bible are questionable?

Consider that if a scientist were to demonstrate that chimps and humans do not have common ancestors by means of a valid alternative theory, (s)he would win a Nobel Prize. The scientific community would rejoice with the breakthrough.

A scientist considers the possibility of an outcome while you are gambling your faith on certainties (in this case, that modern humans were roaming the earth alongside dinosaurs). Let it go. Keep your faith.

[Minchia! 0]

^^^^^

Well said, sir!

You put, in an articulate manner, my thoughts exactly without sounding hostile or combatitive. That is something I have to work on. I sometimes get so worked up because in my view, religion is and has been the cause of so much hate, violence, and misunderstanding. It is the last hurdle that mankind has to conquer to be free to explore its full potential. It is the only thing that anchors us to the ancient and primitive ways of old. I think that we are doomed to destroy ourselves over archaic beliefs unless we progress beyond faith in the unknowable, unprovable, supernatural.

[maure 1]

^^^^^

Well said, sir!

You put, in an articulate manner, my thoughts exactly without sounding hostile or combatitive. That is something I have to work on. I sometimes get so worked up because in my view, religion is and has been the cause of so much hate, violence, and misunderstanding. It is the last hurdle that mankind has to conquer to be free to explore its full potential. It is the only thing that anchors us to the ancient and primitive ways of old. I think that we are doomed to destroy ourselves over archaic beliefs unless we progress beyond faith in the unknowable, unprovable, supernatural.

Nice of you to say.

Let me say, though, that the insanity of humanity is the result of... humanity. Even if religion could be superceded, our humanity (or lack of) cannot. We are one sorry frigging mess, no matter how anyone looks at it....

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

A scientist considers the possibility of an outcome while you are gambling your faith on certainties (in this case, that modern humans were roaming the earth alongside dinosaurs). Let it go. Keep your faith.

Excellent post Maure.

[Minchia! 0]

Nice of you to say.

Let me say, though, that the insanity of humanity is the result of... humanity. Even if religion could be superceded, our humanity (or lack of) cannot. We are one sorry frigging mess, no matter how anyone looks at it....

That may be true. However, faith and patriotism, considered by many to be virtues, only widen the gaps between our cultures and ideologies. They give the corrupt and the greedy an easy platform to persuade the masses. Any hope we have as a species depends (in my armchair sociologist opinion) on our ability to evolve beyond this way of thinking. Religion was useful in its time as a way of establishing order and consensus, but in this age of information and communication, it seems obsolete.

[YHR 0]

Faith and knowledge are incompatible becuase faith requires trust on unknowable things. If they were knowable, they would not require faith.

When I speak of not thinking or questioning, I am not talking about shutting down one's brain but about the necessity to avoid questioning the dogmas and precepts of one's religion. I don't mean to say that it is impossible for you to question your religion. I mean to say that if you do so with honesty, you will eventually give up on your faith. Again, this is not because there is something wrong with religion but because religion is meant to be followed not understood.

1. Observe what YHR says. He demands "When it is proven as law, let me know". Image if he were to apply the same demands of proof to his religion. Thus, my advice to him.. have faith and let it go.

2.In all truth, you are the one denying possibilities other than ones offered by your religion. You say this once and again. You believe what you believe without need for proof or explanation while everything else is suspect or erroneous, again without need for proof or explanation. Your mistake is not on your faith but on your necessity to undermine all else to maintain your faith.

3.Further, your claim that "I've opened my mind to other possibilities" is, again, perverse. Are you saying that the existence of god and the veridity of the bible are questionable?

4.Consider that if a scientist were to demonstrate that chimps and humans do not have common ancestors by means of a valid alternative theory, (s)he would win a Nobel Prize. The scientific community would rejoice with the breakthrough.

5. A scientist considers the possibility of an outcome while you are gambling your faith on certainties (in this case, that modern humans were roaming the earth alongside dinosaurs). Let it go. Keep your faith.

1.IS there something perverse about pointing out the difference between theory and Law and the importance of knowing the difference????

2.This is a generalization you could make up about some Christians but certainly not me. On the contrary, I have been taught one thing and considered it and am know giving the other side a fair shake, and I am seeing some things that are troubling to me. In a sense I feel I have been lied to by the popular education system. They taught me things as truth and should have been more up front with some of the assumptions that go into the theory they are so quick to teach. What's even worse is I 've allowed them to teach my Children the same thing. Now that I am approaching things from the Christian viewpoint, I can honestly say the Public school system does not allow freedom of religion, and in fact undermines it. Who gave them this authority???? You see I have walked both sides of the road, and now clearly see the inequality of how things are presented.

3.Who honestly wouldn't????

4.Yes OK. It would be pretty hard not to applaud an event like that.

5.This is comical. A scientist considers the possibilities, and I gamble my faith. Teaching an unproven 200 year old theory as law to young children is criminal. You don't see a problem with this???? Is seems a little perverse to me. I don't even give a rats a## if they consider creationism a viable counter theory. I would just be happy if they clearly identified the assumptions that are being made when they spoon feed this stuff to children and young adults.

My faith is strong and unshakable, for this reason I am happy to explore whatever science has to offer. But I call a spade a spade when I see it. Personally I have a very hard time with the 10,000 year old earth theory. However I was a little taken aback when I discovered the mechanics of carbon dating. Why didn't they teach more about the quality of the measuring stick while I was in school. They conveniently left things out. So now I am at least questioning the science that we use to determine the things that are taught. Seems like a worthwhile exercise to me.

What difference does it make if the earth is 10,000 years or 10 billions year old.

[YHR 0]

Nice of you to say.

Let me say, though, that the insanity of humanity is the result of... humanity. Even if religion could be superceded, our humanity (or lack of) cannot. We are one sorry frigging mess, no matter how anyone looks at it....

On that we agree.

[YHR 0]

^^^^^

Well said, sir!

You put, in an articulate manner, my thoughts exactly without sounding hostile or combatitive. That is something I have to work on. I sometimes get so worked up because in my view, religion is and has been the cause of so much hate, violence, and misunderstanding. It is the last hurdle that mankind has to conquer to be free to explore its full potential. It is the only thing that anchors us to the ancient and primitive ways of old. I think that we are doomed to destroy ourselves over archaic beliefs unless we progress beyond faith in the unknowable, unprovable, supernatural.

Absolutely agree with you on the bolded part. Religion is man's view of the bible. Many people have got it very wrong.

We used to rip the hearts out of people in the hope for a good crop. That was the science of the day. I guess we do the best we can.

[Minchia! 0]

We used to rip the hearts out of people in the hope for a good crop. That was the science of the day. I guess we do the best we can.

Exactly my point! We USED to rip out peoples hearts, but that seems quite barbaric now. Why? How do you know their god(s) was not the true god? What makes your biblical god any more valid than theirs?

If I told you that your god is false and that Zeus and his gang are the true gods and that the sun is really Apollo and his chariot going across sky, you would (rightfully so) say that's ridiculous. Why? Science and observation has shown us the true nature of the sun. You (I hope) accept the math and physics that allowed us to slam the door on the Greek Gods, however, you choose to ignore the same math and physics that chip away at the bible?

As far as the "science of the day" reference above goes:

Back in the day, religion WAS science. It was the only way we had to explain the things we saw that were beyond our understanding. As the true nature of the universe began to slowly reveal itself to us, the nature of reality and the supernatural began to contradict one another.

Do you realize that the catholic church only just recently apologized (after 300 years!)to Galileo for excommunicating him and imprisoning him in his home for the rest of his life for the revelations he made (which we have all known to be true for quite a while)!! When was the last profound theological discovery that has propelled mankind forwards - either in quality of life or understanding of life? Religious dogma is a broken record that forces our eyes closed in the face of the blinding light of truth.

---On edit, I always get sucked into this argument which is (and always has been) pointless. Nothing I can say will change your mind and vice-versa. If believing what you do makes you feel good - then enjoy! If you're right, we'll know when we die. If I'm right, we wont. LOL

[YHR 0]

Exactly my point! We USED to rip out peoples hearts, but that seems quite barbaric now. Why? How do you know their god(s) was not the true god? What makes your biblical god any more valid than theirs?

If I told you that your god is false and that Zeus and his gang are the true gods and that the sun is really Apollo and his chariot going across sky, you would (rightfully so) say that's ridiculous. Why? Science and observation has shown us the true nature of the sun. You (I hope) accept the math and physics that allowed us to slam the door on the Greek Gods, however, you choose to ignore the same math and physics that chip away at the bible?

The ten commandments and Jesus Christ. IMO Solid foundations to build a productive worthwhile life on.

I am actively engaged in discovery, and questioning many things. I'm ignoring nothing. Not sure where you come up with that idea.

Catholic Church?????? I'll decline any comment on that

Cheers

[Minchia! 0]

The ten commandments and Jesus Christ. IMO Solid foundations to build a productive worthwhile life on.

I am actively engaged in discovery, and questioning many things. I'm ignoring nothing. Not sure where you come up with that idea.

Catholic Church?????? I'll decline any comment on that

See my edit...

God be with you, friend.