76 replies to this topic

[JHS]

Happy to be drafted in as a spare. Hopefully I can bring something good to the yes team. Looking forward to it, it should be good!

[Schumikonen]

medilloni, on 10 May 2010 - 12:23 PM, said:

Hell of a draught in here, with the fish market just down the road 'n all  

I didn't get it as usual but I am starting to think that I am in the wrong gruop in this debate, fisrt I heard about a group being naked and them someone being wide open, at the end of this it is going to be very difficult for me to come with a impartial opinion, right now is being very hard to stop thinking about it.

[Schumikonen]

adamstrags, on 10 May 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

I suggest I don't start a new thread now. It'll just get jumped on again.

How about this - when Andres is ready to do his intro he can then copy and paste my starting post with the teams, format and other stuff before he posts his intro. Then the debaters can get going. Sound okay?

What I suggest is not starting one of these threads until everybody is ready to start or at least the person who is responsible for the first post should start the tread that way we wouldn't have the thread hanging around giving time to other people to post in it, I must say that I wanted to jump in earlier but I holded myself until I couldn't resist no more, so there is no guarantee that this is not going to happen again, I guess the only way to keep this thread on track is by starting the debate right away we can even create antoher thread to debate the Debate.

[LabradoRacer]

Tommy, on 10 May 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:

I didn't get it as usual but I am starting to think that I am in the wrong gruop in this debate, fisrt I heard about a group being naked and them someone being wide open, at the end of this it is going to be very difficult for me to come with a impartial opinion, right now is being very hard to stop thinking about it.

Well, Medilloni was playing on 'left wide open'. The 'hell of a draught in here' refers to this. If a door's left wide open, it lets in cold air, doesn't it? And as for the fish market down the road, well, it's often said that a pussy smells like a fish (or maybe just the unclean ones). As a matter of fact, I had got an email a month back; a cartoon about this fish thing. There's this gated 'Home for blind lesbians'. A fisherman's walking outside the home grounds, carrying his catch. Every female hand is thrust through the bars, screaming, 'Gimme! Gimme!!"

[LabradoRacer]

And about the debate issue, I don't understand why anyone would begrudge Marko a few swigs of caffeine.

[medilloni]

Tommy, on 10 May 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

What I suggest is not starting one of these threads until everybody is ready to start or at least the person who is responsible for the first post should start the tread that way we wouldn't have the thread hanging around giving time to other people to post in it, I must say that I wanted to jump in earlier but I holded myself until I couldn't resist no more, so there is no guarantee that this is not going to happen again, I guess the only way to keep this thread on track is by starting the debate right away we can even create antoher thread to debate the Debate.

    

Tommy, thank you, you have just reduced me to tears of laughter. The double-meanings to come off the back of your post are sooooo many, and priceless!

The explanation about the draught and fish market from Labrodo are accurate enough  




To Andres, Steph and debators (debatees?).... As Chris has also said, I won't be chirping in to spoil the thread once it's started.  I'm looking forward to it, it's a great idea.













........but I can't help thinking this is like the park bench with a "WET PAINT, DO NOT TOUCH" notice  

Edited by medilloni, 10 May 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[Rainmaster]

medilloni, on 10 May 2010 - 03:52 PM, said:

........but I can't help thinking this is like the park bench with a "WET PAINT, DO NOT TOUCH" notice

Indeedy!

[cavallino]

It's gone the way of the global warming thread, and surprise, it's the same people again...

[Kopite Girl]

I'm just a grouch today.

But OK. Thanks for that, and Chris as well.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

cavallino, on 10 May 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:

It's gone the way of the global warming thread, and surprise, it's the same people again...

Oh, do you mean me?

Well Cav if you check you'll see I started the global warming thread, so in fact I could argue other people polluted the thread with all their globally warm air

Meds, you are 100% right - if it hadn't been me, someone else would have... way too tempting

And Steph, of course I wouldn't do anything to disrupt the debate. As Meds mentioned, this is the pre-event drinks and canapes - olive anyone?

[AleHop]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 10 May 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

And Steph, of course I wouldn't do anything to disrupt the debate. As Meds mentioned, this is the pre-event drinks and canapes - olive anyone?

Drinks? Red Bull?
We should not be talking about it in the pre-debate.

[Autumnpuma]

The prosecution has a concern concerning the concern about time zone differences, personal schedules and the lack of a real good way to compare notes. The PM system here on this forum works well enough unless someone (don't listen, Cav, I'm talking about you ) has room in their inbox.

So, here's what I propose for the prosecution's case. Cav is the team leader and will present first. I'll look at what he's posted and try to respond to the defense as well as interject anything Cav might have missed. Brad will do the same when I'm done and Cav will take all of it and make a brilliant, defense-killing summary. This can all be accomplished without any discussion between the prosecution and that has a certain anarchist feel to it that tickles me in dark places.

[JHS]

Seeing as I'm the last from my group, I'll try to get my point posted as quickly as possible. Oh, just a quick question also. There were talks of a word limit for posts, is this in place and if it is, what is the limit?

Edited by JHS, 10 May 2010 - 08:36 PM.

[Quiet One]

First words, not as this debate's appointed mod, but as a forum member (IMHO):

First post by Chris: funny. Who would have resisted? Nothing to blame there.

Later posts AFTER saying you were all just chillin' before the debate starts: Well...ok. You could have done that at any other thread without making Adam's first post look wortless but whatever floats your boat and the harm was done anyways.

Anything else in the middle: Sorry, but seemed a little bit rude. I won't speak for Adam, but for myself, being put into a position where I should scold you like first graders (as I am doing somehow now) is rather humiliating. My idea of being a mod was just point here and there some inconsistencies in the hopes of a better debate and clearer ideas to come out, not babysitting. Mostly when I knew that if I posted this same things earlier somebody would come up with "geez, don't take it so seriously" or "you are just the debate's mod, you are not our boss" or something along those lines and that would have seriously angered me. I guess by now it is somewhat established that I can be as silly as the next guy. But this thread besides any differences in approach (and this debate isn't what I wanted it to be, if you need to know) was, I think, in the hopes of rising the discussions levels of this Forum. Something many illustrious members have complained about. Under that light, a minimal respect wouldn't have hurt anybody.

That is all I have to say as a forum member.

[Quiet One]

As you all know, the debate will be on whether Webber deserves his place at Red Bull. This first debate may not be as hot as "Lewis vs Nando" or anything like it, but will be a good excercise on how to carry on a mature debate when we move onto more controversial subjects. There are always lessons to be learned!

My take: the keyword in this debate will be the actual meaning of the verb "to deserve". My recommendation will be for each team to be clear on what do they understand as "deserving" to avoid the first fallacy you will learn today, young padawans: the false dichotomy. This happens when people discuss if it is either A or B as if they were mutually exclusive when actually they are not.

Don't worry, I will try to restraint myself to a minimum. If I point some fallacy it will be mostly to show the most common ones we tend to fall into in our everyday communication. I will only issue a real warning if one of them actually is stopping the debate from moving further.

There are plenty of them, and many are not worth avoiding as most issues tend to dwelve into very subjective or emotional stuff and ultra logical reasoning is not the same as achieving any Universal Truth or making you superior, just being aware that they exist might save you sometimes some waste of time on trivial subjects.

I thought about posting the names and examples of some of the most common ones, but that would make this intro too long and boring. So I will just point them as they show up. Remember that they don't automatically mean any discredit to the argument being carried, if I think any of them are an obstacle I will issue a warning. Again, this warning means nothing. There are no points to be won or lost, and no punishments. Just a learning experience.

Now I will shut up and we can all enjoy the show. Participants, the stand is all yours!

[yurp]

EDIT - can teams and the jury post in their colour too so the thread is easy to read?
green for Yes Team, red for No Team, pink for Jury, blue for Andres.

Format:
1) Open thread - set starting date for debate 4 days later (give teams a chance to prepare)
Part 1
2) Introduction from Andres
3) Yes Team Leader opening statement - Argento Reloaded
4) No Team Leader opening statement - Cavallino
5) Yes Team 2nd member argument - Kopite Girl
6) No Team 2nd member argument - AutumnPuma
7) Yes Team 3rd member argument - JHS
8) No Team 3rd member argument - BradSpeedMan
9) Yes Team Leader summing up - Argento Reloaded
10) No Team Leader summing up - Cavallino
Part 2
11) Andres - questions for Yes Team (received via PM from questioners, moderated and ordered by Andres)
12) Yes Team Leader, 2nd member and 3rd member rebuttals to questions. (1 post each) - Argento Reloaded, Kopite Girl, JHS (any order)
13) Andres - questions for No Team (received via PM from questioners, moderated and ordered by Andres)
14) No Team Leader, 2nd member and 3rd member rebuttals to questions. (1 post each) - Cavallino, AutumnPuma, BradSpeedMan (any order)
15) Andres calls on jury and sums up arguments from Teams (impartial - NOT judgement)
16) Jury Verdicts (5 posts, one from each jury member including judgement and reasons) - Monza, AleHop, Max Mosley, piquettheterrible2, Tommy (any order)
17) Andres pronunces winners according to jury verdict
18) Open poll (Public verdict)

Edited by adamstrags, 30 May 2010 - 10:47 PM.

[Argento Reloaded]

This is the first statement Fron the MWST (mark Webber Support Team ):

In a dog eat dog world as F1 seems to be, 8 years driving for top teams like Jaguar, Williams, Red Bull, etc. matching drivers like Montoya (very fat and fast) is a trong statement by itself.
The F1 appreciate his qualy pace and raw speed and professionalism and lack of fights out of the track.
I like to see some experienced drivers waiting for the opportunity to drive the car of therir lives -like Button last year. Maybe 2010 is Mark´s and Red Bull year as you could watched last sunday with a flawless performance.
Look at the grid now Chandok, Algersuari, Kovalainen, Senna, and many more with no experience and/or talent while Heidfeld is out watching the races by TV. Do you want Mark doing the same next year? after last race the answer is: NO!
He deserves a competitive car to show his talent.

Remember: you can think whatever you want as long it shares our thoughs!

Be careful the MWST is watching you

[cavallino]

Mark Webber arrived at a midfield, though aspiring Red Bull team. Now, quite clearly, Red Bull has outgrown Mark Webber, and he is becoming their weakest link. The problem isn't just his outright lack of pace compared to Vettel, that part is pretty clear to see. What is worse is his very poor racecraft after so many years in the show, a knack of either getting involved in incidents or provoking them and harming his own and his teams chances in the process. He has been flattered by poor teammates at different stages of his career, like Pizzonia and David Coulthard. He does put some decent drives in, but consistency is always always a big problem, he just doesn't can't drive at that level through a championship season. With their vast car superiority, Red Bull should have two good drivers, so they can steamroller through both championships, so that both drivers are pushed by each other.

Webber has huge personality issues, so he can't be a cerebral Button like driver who can overcome his minor lack of pace compared to some of the outrageously talented drivers with some clever driving. It was very telling when Williams were quite happy to let him go. Or remarks like "Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they **** it all up," - guess who the kid he was referring to here (back in 2007)? Sebastian Vettel.

Do Red Bull really want a 35 year old Webber driving for them next year, when they could hire anyone on the grid, in particular a certain Robert Kubeetza?

[dribbler]

cavallino, on 13 May 2010 - 09:41 AM, said:

Mark Webber arrived at a midfield, though aspiring Red Bull team. Now, quite clearly, Red Bull has outgrown Mark Webber, and he is becoming their weakest link. The problem isn't just his outright lack of pace compared to Vettel, that part is pretty clear to see. What is worse is his very poor racecraft after so many years in the show, a knack of either getting involved in incidents or provoking them and harming his own and his teams chances in the process. He has been flattered by poor teammates at different stages of his career, like Pizzonia and David Coulthard. He does put some decent drives in, but consistency is always always a big problem, he just doesn't can't drive at that level through a championship season. With their vast car superiority, Red Bull should have two good drivers, so they can steamroller through both championships, so that both drivers are pushed by each other.

Webber has huge personality issues, so he can't be a cerebral Button like driver who can overcome his minor lack of pace compared to some of the outrageously talented drivers with some clever driving. It was very telling when Williams were quite happy to let him go. Or remarks like "Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they **** it all up," - guess who the kid he was referring to here (back in 2007)? Sebastian Vettel.

Do Red Bull really want a 35 year old Webber driving for them next year, when they could hire anyone on the grid, in particular a certain Robert Kubeetza?

I think Mark would be the first to admit that his comment about Sebastien was a 'heat of the moment' response when emotions were running high at a time when he missed out on a great opportunity. The chemistry between them now is clear to see. Whilst I agree with your comments about consistency I don't necessarily agree that Red Bull should replace him with Kubica, even though he is faster and more consistent. Sebastien has enough on his plate, remaining patient at a time when the car is proving fragile. When they get this addressed and Seb' wins his first title, that would be the time to bring someone on who will give Sebastien a greater challenge. That may well be next season, it might be 2012.

As it is, whilst Mark can pull performances out like Spain and in the process make Seb' look ordinary on an off day, his seat looks safe.

Oh bollocks, I shouldn't be posting here, should I. Oh well, sorry.

Edited by dribbler, 13 May 2010 - 10:14 AM.

[Kopite Girl]

Mark Webber.

An anomaly. Not your usual run of the mill driver. Not in todays F1 format where all the youngsters are filling the seats and driving for their young lives.

This isn't a debate about whether Mark is good enough to be in F1. The question is 'Does Mark Webber deserve a Red Bull'

The answer quite simply is why not?

Mark has the right mix of life experience and know how to show Vettel a thing or two. It seems to me that Vettel is being groomed for superstardom, MS style. If this is the case, Seb doesn't need an arrogant, non team player team mate. He needs support. He needs a man with a level head on his shoulders to give him the development space and opportunity. Mark has never been selfish. If he can share something, he will - to aid the team and his team mate.

Red Bull is a stop-gap for Vettel. Its a platform to the next team. The big guns. And rather than jumping in head first, he has opted to stay and learn. Who better than to help him mature and give him the support than Mark Webber.

Mark himself can be blisteringly quick. He's a qualifying king. He can get the car onto the front of the grid without blinking. What a way to showcase what a team is capable of. What a way to give Seb that little bit of extra momentum and belief. 'Well if he can do it, I can go better.'

I cant think of a better teammate to show the talent of Vettel other than Mark Webber. I can't think of a better man to showcase the Red Bull team other than Mark Webber. And I cant think of a more determined to push himself to the limit driver than Mark Webber.

Regardless of his age, which I believe to be 34 at the moment - if Michael can drive at the age of 43 and Rubens, Trulli (not sure) being older than Webber, that makes no difference. In F1 experience is needed. I still believe Vettel could benefit greatly from Mark. Not by the competitiveness of Kubica. Not by another couple of years yet. Mark has Indeed seen off drivers who are grand prix winners. He himself is also now. So, my closing sentence to my argument is YES. Mark deserves the Red Bull seat more than anyone.

[mikathegreat2]

cavallino, on 13 May 2010 - 09:41 AM, said:

Mark Webber arrived at a midfield, though aspiring Red Bull team. Now, quite clearly, Red Bull has outgrown Mark Webber, and he is becoming their weakest link. The problem isn't just his outright lack of pace compared to Vettel, that part is pretty clear to see. What is worse is his very poor racecraft after so many years in the show, a knack of either getting involved in incidents or provoking them and harming his own and his teams chances in the process. He has been flattered by poor teammates at different stages of his career, like Pizzonia and David Coulthard. He does put some decent drives in, but consistency is always always a big problem, he just doesn't can't drive at that level through a championship season. With their vast car superiority, Red Bull should have two good drivers, so they can steamroller through both championships, so that both drivers are pushed by each other.

Webber has huge personality issues, so he can't be a cerebral Button like driver who can overcome his minor lack of pace compared to some of the outrageously talented drivers with some clever driving. It was very telling when Williams were quite happy to let him go. Or remarks like "Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they **** it all up," - guess who the kid he was referring to here (back in 2007)? Sebastian Vettel.

Do Red Bull really want a 35 year old Webber driving for them next year, when they could hire anyone on the grid, in particular a certain Robert Kubeetza?

Thought I'd prevent some confusion!

[Autumnpuma]

Alright, I'm up. I'll post mine tonight or early tomorrow (PST).

[mikathegreat2]

Well?

[Autumnpuma]

Well, life happens. I'll get to it when I have a moment to spare.

[Autumnpuma]

The definition of 'deserve' is to be worthy of something as a result of one's actions. Also to earn something through one's actions. Earning. Has Mark Webber earned the right to sit in the best car on the grid? Has he proven his skill and worth in other cars?

Since coming into F1 in 2002, his finishing positions have been: 16th, 10th, 13th, 10th, 14th, 12th, 11th, 4th and is currently in the top 5. That might not look to be a good record, but he managed 2 points in a Minardi and 17 points in a Jaguar. There's no arguing he has talent. But talent in F1 is a rather common trait. Prior to last year, most people regarded Webber as unfulfilled potential. Unfulfilled mostly through errors on his part. The prevailing attitude about Mark, outside of Australia, has been 'Wow, great qualifying! Too bad he'll lose it all in the race".

Mark's debut for Minardi was spectacular and earned him a drive with Jaguar when they had more arrogance than talent. Despite that, he did a pretty good job for them in a crappy car and earned a drive with Williams. Up until this point, Mark had clearly earned better drives. After two years with Williams, and despite one podium, he was widely regarded as a disappointment. We all expected him to be the new Alan Jones didn't we? The quick driver who could finally pull Williams back up to where they should be, right? We all guessed wrong. Mark wasn't a driver who could put in a stellar drive to consistent podiums and he wasn't a driver to rally a team behind him. After two lack-lustre seasons he was tempted by Red Bull's money and jumped Sir Frank's ship.

One must remember Red Bull circa 2007. They were a midfield team and certainly not a step up from Williams (more lateral than anything else as Red Bull only scored 5 more points than Williams). Webber was set to partner David Coulthard (a driver way past his expiration date). Having started with bottom-of-the-barrel drivers and dropping them in favor of better ones as the car improved, Mark and DC at Red Bull were...safe...choices. Neither one would set the world on fire but they wouldn't be green either. They fit the car's midfield status. The car continued to improve under Newey and Red Bull eventually grew out of David Coulthard, retaining Webber largely because of his contract and a lack of other choices. Vettel came onboard as a rising star and was just the sort of energetic, quick, race-winning driver Red Bull needed. We all waited to see if Webber could compete with this German sensation.

In 2009, Mark scored 2 wins to Vettel's 4. Webber only decisively beat Vettel once, in Malaysia (scoring 6th to Vettel's 15th but that was a strange race) while Vettel beat Mark in Bahrain (by 9 places), Spa (by 6 places) and Japan (by 16 places). It is at this point we must stop and ask ourselves if Webber earned that seat going into 2010. Had he proven himself a better candidate for that seat than Nick Heidfeld, Rubens Barrichello or Robert Kubica, all of whom were available? Rubens alone has a record and a reputation that blows Webber's into the weeds. Kubica is fast, solid and rarely makes mistakes and had one win and four podiums. Heidfeld had blown away some highly-regarded teammates.

If we say Webber earned deserves his spot at Red Bull based on his record, then we're ignoring the other drivers with better records who were available to replace him at the end of 2009. Despite Mark's good record, I can't watch Kubica stick his middling Renault on the podium in Australia and barely miss the podium in Malaysia without thinking that the wrong man is driving that Red Bull.

[JHS]

Mark Webber. After the last eight days, to me, it is not a case of whether he deserves a Red Bull anymore. It's whether Red Bull deserves HIM.

Sure, it was a long time but a few times in Williams he'd been in a good position to score highly or even win before the car let him down. Now he seems to have a car that is good, and matched with his driving style they seem to be a very strong force. In 2009 for example, unlike his team mate he didn't have a single DNF through a crash. At Barcelona and Monaco, he's been Button-esque in terms of his dominance. Nobody has had a look in. People may say that's down to the aero or it's hard to overtake but what you can't argue about is the facts. You have to be damn talented to win so convincingly in Formula One.

The thing is, he's been rewarded a good car and he is winning in it. Sure, he he may not have won as many races for RBR as his young team mate, but he seems to be finishing more races and he's not exactly a million miles away from Seb's pace. Considering that Seb is widely regarded as a future world champion, he's seriously giving Sebastian something to think about at night, seen in Barcelona and now Monaco. Sebastian, in equal machinery, couldn't touch him. Using Seb as the yard-stick for how good he's going, that's a great effort.

Maybe in Australia he was a bit agressive in terms of dealing with Hamilton. That shows he was giving it his all. If I was a team owner, I'd much rather see that fight, that desire in a driver to succeed infront of their home crowd than for them to trawl around all weekend and not seem like they really care what race it is.

It seems that like Webber's efforts have not gone unnoticed. Rumours have it that now Mark Webber is on the wish list of Ferrari, should they choose to replace Felipe Massa. The only mistake Red Bull can make now is by NOT signing him up, as it seems like many more teams might be a-nocking on Webber's room over the next few days.

[BradSpeedMan]

Does Webber deserve a Red Bull?

On tracks that require a high level of downforce, Mark Webber has been king. He's put in 2 dominant performances and is now leading the Driver's Championship Standing with his teammate. Poster's on the yes side like JHS will be quick to point out what has happened in the last eight days and justify Mark's seat with Red Bull. But is'nt that what was expected of Mark? Was'nt Markie the guy who set pre-season testing alight, blazing the field while his teammate had less luck with the rain-affected testing. Together with Alonso, they seemed the ones to beat. Came qualifying Bahrain, what happened? Yet another mistake, you guessed right, with more to come during the following races. Mark Webber is 34 years old and is suppose to be leading the team, yet it seems the other way around, while ppl can't believe when Markie actually wins. With the vast experience he has, and being the qualifying king, this year's format fit's him like a glove. You qualify first, and lead from the front till the end of the race, pretty much processional, as everyone knows. We were quick to point out that Vettel is still a little immature for the title and makes too many mistakes. Excuse my short-term memory loss, but has he made any this year? Bad call on tyres once during inclement weather, was it then a team decision or not? You can't have one teammate suffering from unreliable engine woes while the other one then throws points away with mistakes. Everybody knows I don't like the Alonso guy, but Mark can take a cue from him on how to be consistent, and placing you car where you could gain most advantage from. Consider this, the margin of performance that Red Bull has over their competitiors are greater than that of Brawn last year. Red Bull is suppose to be dominating! Cav stated ..."consistency is always always a big problem, he just can't drive at that level through a championship season". I'm fully expecting Vettel to bounce back and show Mark who's boss again come the following races, while Markie has another good race or 2 in the future. You should have 2 capable championship winning prospectives in a dominating car.

The rumours about Ferrari seeking his services is'nt a good one. This is the reason why they are interested in Markie, how a top team views him. "...the most important thing is to get the right driver to partner Alonso, because it’s very clear that they have hired the Spaniard to win things for them. What they need alongside is an uncomplicated, unpolitical but very fast driver to push him." Basically a nr 2 driver.Red Bull should wait till near the end of the year to even consider him again, otherwise they'll sign him up and he does disappointment again, as his history suggest. Mike has named a few suitable candidates, I hope they look to those....

[Argento Reloaded]

Congrats to both team but the yes team had won. Why? let´s face it Webber is now driving like er... Vettel! After both back to back wins the discussions is over, he is leading the WC with near perfect performances! As a predator he is smelling blood... he realised is now or never for him and is going to give his best to became WC. Until now he succeding...

[cavallino]

A summary of the no team arguments:

1) Mark Webber is 34 years old and will be 35 next year. Any top team would have to take that into account while hiring him. If a driver has accomplished a lot by the time he is 34, there are good reasons for hiring him, but with Mark Webber you have to question whether his peak is already behind him.

2) A lack of consistency over a season - Mark has put in many blazing drives, including some very recently. However, he has never consistently performed like a top driver an entire season. This can be called the Fisichella syndrome. It means that when you are in a lower midfield or bottom team, you receive attention for your good drives, however for your bad drives, since noone expects much from your team anyway, the fact that you weren't driving all that well isn't that obvious, especially if your teammate isn't that good. Whereas, in a top team, with a good car, inconsistency over a season is painfully obvious - this is why people like Fisichella and Webber looked so good when driving Minardis and Saubers, and everyone thought they deserved better cars.

3) A tendency to make mistakes - howlers more like it. Especially, a lack of racecraft, Mark does much better in race where he has the car underneath him to be fast enough to not have to deal with other cars around him. Mark Webber is not a racer, he is not a great overtaker, and he is not a great rain driver - a big sign of driver skill.

4) A personality that isn't suited for being a team's leading driver - a tendency to mouth off, criticize teammates when it sohuld be your driving doing the talking. HE isn't a team player and is completely unable to rally a team around him, therefore he has always been dispensable for the teams he drove for.

5) He has inherited a great car in Red Bull rather than earning a top drive, he was hired when Red Bull was going for safe options. Now there are better options around, more than one.

[yurp]

WELL DONE TEAMS! (But you're not done yet)

Just thought I'd jump in and remind everyone (team members, judges and other users) that you can send any challenging questions for either team to Andres now. He will collate them and then post them for the teams to answer in part 2 of the debate.

Get ready teams - you can make 1 post each in answer to the questions given by Andres (you may do this in any order). The 'Yes' Team will go first, then the 'No' Team.

Personally - I'm pleasantly surprised at the tone of the debate so far. I think, just by existing Andres has done his job admirably.

(I thought I should use a gay purple colour so as not to usurp his power. )

Edited by adamstrags, 21 May 2010 - 08:05 AM.