35 replies to this topic

[HandyNZL]

You're Frank Williams, team owner of the only team on the grid yet to decide on the last race seat in your team.  There are several hopeful's with their eye on slipping their sheepskin carseat cover onto the seat.  You have just come out of your worst season in many, many, many a year.  You have made some fairly substantial changes in your design department so the team is going to take at least three years to see the results of those changes - you are definitely in a rebuilding phase.  Your longtime partner has stepped down, and is pretty much just a figurehead/face for the team now.  What do you do / who do you go with?

Guys eying up the seat include:

The Incumbent:  Rubens Barrichello brings experience and a passion to be out there driving.  It's F1 or bust for him, and this seat in particular.  He's been a part of the team for a couple of seasons now, so is well integrated with the team, and carries a fair amount of respect for being in the game for so long.  But he doesn't bring money, and if he does, it must be pretty minor.  He has admitted he will drive for a small retainer because he just wants to be there, and he still feels he can contribute.  However, age catches up with all men.  His hair is thinning.  His kids are growing up.  His eyesight is getting shorter.  His need to prove himself to the world well and truly over and done with.  His reactions, comparatively slower.

The Name:  Bruno Senna carries a name with much weight, but, apart from some good form in lower formulae, has not transferred this in any way in his F1 career to date.  The name can be a godsend and a curse.  Probably more a curse.  He is expected to live up to the name; to emulate his great Uncle.  But he won't, and the sooner many come to that realisation, the better for them, and for Bruno.  He probably is no worse than the Buemi's, or the Sutil's of this world, but without consistent seat time, and without people letting him drive without the weight of Ayrton on his shoulders, he's never going to be any better.  One could argue that Lotus-Renault-Lada-Poochie stuffed each and every race that he had with them this season from the pitwall, but he rarely got close to Vitaly, and we are all in the dark as to just how much influence he had on car setup and strategy calls.  For all we know, he was doing the gambling on safety-cars coming out.  On the flipside, many might see the Senna name returning to Williams as some kind of rightful closure.  Ayrton raced for them but for a few races before his untimely death.  The car then was perhaps the second or second-equal best car on the grid, and was perhaps the only time Ayrton made a poor career call, thus putting him under pressure to perform like he hadn't faced in many years - or a different sort of pressure.  And thus, would Bruno be tarnished with that renewed expectation?  To finish off what his Uncle started?  It could wreck his future F1 career if he were to fail, and to fail would also not be in William's long term survival plan.  They need results...they need to move forward.

The Money:  Vitaly Petrov, without doubt, has very full pockets.  He would bring a substantial boost in money for Williams, as well as exposure in Russia, ultimately in time for a Russian GP.  They would be the de facto home team, and with that, open up sponsorship avenues.  But besides the money he can bring, he has been blooded fairly well over the last two seasons.  He has yet to put together a consistent season, but, neither did Vettel until this year.  He is young, he has reasonable talent required for a mid-field team, and he has more experience than Bruno.  Plus, you know that he spanked Bruno in equal equipment.  That alone would put him ahead of Bruno.  And whilst he carries less experience than Rubens, his monetary input would nullify a few problems for the ailing Williams.  The guy has a future, and should have maintained a seat with Lotus for 2012, but Grosjeans butt licking of Buillior (sp) is the only reason he is not there, in my opinion.

The Journeyman:  Adrian Sutil must be at good odds for the second seat.  He is far more experienced than Petrov or Bruno, and it has looked like he may be able to step up to the number one driver role with Maldonado in the number two role.  He brings a little bit of sponsorship, and he brings pretty good racecraft too.  There is not too much to say for or against him however, which, maybe his biggest problem in landing the seat.

The Outsider:  Nico Hulkenberg whom was turfed not for his potential driving abilities, but for his potential to being in money.  Rank outsider for that reason as the situation at Williams has not changed.


My Choice:

Petrov.

Sorry to all those misty eyed Rubens supporters, but the man is not going to be the next WDC, nor is he going to get any better in his driving.  He is as good as he will ever be, or perhaps that was a few years back.  Yes he has experience, but Williams need more than that.  They need a driver (or teammates) that they can build a three year plan around, and Rubens is not going to be around in three years.  F1 is as much about the future as it is about the present.  Whilst Rubens is without doubt a valuable asset, in equal cars I can not see him outperforming Vitaly.

Even if you discount Petrov bringing in money, he is a better bet than Rubens.  He can defend a position.  He qualifies pretty consistently.  He is younger and for that, the fire to perform has to be more than Rubens.

Williams can get him on a small retainer, much the same as Rubens, but with the added bonus of not having to find the funds for that retainer.

Of the pay drivers without a ride, Petrov is the pick of the bunch.  You just don't get excited about Sutil, and Senna, at this stage of his career, is no match for him.  He also comes to Williams with some very recent Renault information and knowledge.  Another string in his bow over Rubens.



So...if you were Frank, what would you do?  Is there another driver out there that you would pick?

[Quiet One]

Frank Williams? The guy that keeps breathing only because its for free? It has always been about the money with him. So its sually a big name with someone willing to pay for having him there (something that worked wonders when Williams was a great car) but nowadays is..err...well not so much. Follow the money.

[Rainmaster]

Money aside, I'd choose Petrov or Sutil. Sutil is probably the stronger because of experience, and I get the sense that his ultimate performance level is higher than Petrov's. On the other hand, he is one of those who seems to blow hot and cold and sometimes he doesn't seem that hungry for it. Senna is the gamble, because he hasn't had much of a chance to show anything yet.

[Quiet One]

Well, regretfully Rubinho is a known quantity by now, and it's a small quantity actually. We know his limits and he isn't going anywhere beyond that. His experience is no longer an asset and being likeable is not something Frank looks for in his drivers. So he is out

The others have all higher upper limits than today's Rubens, or at least they seem so. By how much? Hard to judge and the car won't probably flatter any of them. Hulk and Senna are a total unknown.

Nextyears regulations mean that drivers skill at overtaking/defending will be almost useless with the new "no changing back lines" rule. You need a fast guy that can also know how to use DRS, KERS and tires. A guy to push buttons without losing speed, more than a guy skilful at handling the steering wheel. In such case, Sutil is definitely better than Petrov. Sutil is faster out of the box. Abu Dhabi 2010 is impossible under the new regulations so it's dasvedanya for Petrov.

Then again...we are talking about Frank Williams here. He would hire me if I could pay for the fuel and tires

[yurp]

Petrov all the way. Then Sutil. Then Senna.

Sorry but Ruben's time has come.

[KoolMonkey]

Stuff Rubens. He's had his day and will lead a comfortable life away from the track. At the moment, that's all I get the sense he's in F1 for, is to eek out some more money before he gets the boot. I think his moanings of him bringing experience to a team are kind of mute by now. Apart from Ferrari and of course the fluke year at Brawn, what has all his vast "experience" been able to bring to a team. If anything Williams have gone back in their car development. If he gets a seat with a lesser team, I'm ok with that. But he's had his day and I'd hope won't take up a slot in a good team, or one of the mid range teams.

[HandyNZL]

Williams have indeed gone backward in their development, but I would not lay that all at the feet of Rubens.  A driver can only do so much with what he is given.  For all we know, he was able to tell the engineers what he needed, but they could not deliver.  Williams took a few risks this past year with their car, must notably the gearbox, which, given time, seems to me like it is something worth developing.  I think, in all honesty, their major crutch has been the Cosworth engine.  It is the weakest engine out there, and unfortunately the genesis of the engine and the rules it was originally designed to has meant it was only ever going to be under competitive.

[Massa]

Petrov and Sutil for their balance of money and being competent drivers...

...but Maldonado's a lock I guess.  I know there's a government investigation of his funding but you really think anything any nation's government does will get done in a few months?  We'll found out in 2022 that Maldonado's funding for his brief F1 career that will last from 2011-2013 was illegitimate, and the government will "conclude" that the sponsorship yielded no additional profits and carry on without penalty.

Probably.

[Kopite Girl]

Rubens.

He may not be able to win a championship now, but neither will Williams, best they can hope for is top midfield unless some major miracle befalls the team and they end up with Newey, Vettel, Horner, basically the whole of the Red Bull outfit including the tea lady.

I think Rubens has a year or two left in him. Who knows? His experience may just come in handy at some point. Misty eyed? Nah. Just what I think.

Yep. I've never followed the crowd. Damned scousers!

[KoolMonkey]

I say bring back JV. He's good for a few quotes and can always sing a song. Hmm or even better JPM. I don't begrudge Ruben's for getting a drive, I just think he's had years to show his mettle, his so called experience and other factors. Apart from Ferrari and the fluke year at Brawn, there's not much left. Is he any better than Petrov, Sutil, Senna? Probably yeah by a small margin, but he's had 20 odd years in F1 pretty much. Give all those guys 20 years and they might be a bit better than they are now lol. Even though I'm not a fan of any of those guys, at least they have youth and exuberance on their side and could potentially make steps forward in skill & experience. Heck just look at Vettel 2011 compared with Vettel 2010. Di Resta can cry all he likes about if he was in the same car he'd be as good as Vettel -- because you know 6 years ago he beat Vettel a few times. People mature at different levels and I doubt there would be anyone here who still thinks Di Resta could be Vettel in equal cars.

Back to what Frank should do. Well they are an odd team if I do say so. They've had a good run of drivers over the years. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd rather have Ralfie back there than these current guys. I don't get the sense Frank is a good people person or motivator. There must be a reason why so much talent went to that team, and left out the other side.

For the record, I think Sato should get the Williams seat. Why not!? We need a good dose of banzai and Kobi's been off for awhile now. Amazing how perception is. Some years back Yuji Ide had his superlicence suspended after only 4 races back in the 2006 championship. Yet how many times did Blewis crash in competitors this year, and I'm sure in the process set a new record for number of Steward room visits. I hope he got a stamp each visit so he could collect his free footlong sub lol.

Edited by KoolMonkey, 12 December 2011 - 05:06 AM.

[HandyNZL]

Yeah, get JV and then Steph has to run around in the rudey nudey's...why didn't I think of that before?

[Insider]

Petrov? Sutil? Well, the Russian brings the dosh and has experience with the Renault engine but neither driver lights my fire. I guess Frank just needs to survive at this point and get a car into the top ten. Personally, I'd let Maldonado go.  Is he fast? Yes, but he breaks cars and the controversy surrounding his sponsorship may have gone away in the shape of a very scared Congressman Ramos back-pedalling with his protests against it's legality, but it will return, I have no doubt.  Twenty years ago, Williams wouldn't have touched a deal as toxic as this but they are desperate and will continue to be uncompetitive because of it.

Research source on PDVSA: http://alekboyd.blog...s-f1-pdvsa.html

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Sell my team to a Russian billionaire.
Retire.

Buy a yacht.

Invite Emma Bunton around for tea

i.e. let some other bugger worry about the drivers.

[dribbler]

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

<faints>

[Rainmaster]

<Searches for valuable possessions...





..finds nothing>

Edited by #46, 14 December 2011 - 11:10 PM.

[BradSpeedMan]

these Williams guys are really hard-up for some cash... bloody hell

http://www.totalf1.c...2012_race_seat/

[dribbler]

BradSpeedMan, on 15 February 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

these Williams guys are really hard-up for some cash... bloody hell

http://www.totalf1.c...2012_race_seat/

So they are not hiring him for his skills and beautiful teeth? Shocking.

[BradSpeedMan]

dribbler, on 15 February 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

So they are not hiring him for his skills and beautiful teeth? Shocking.

yeah I know he's a pay driver, but that amount of money???

[Quiet One]

BradSpeedMan, on 15 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

yeah I know he's a pay driver, but that amount of money???

Hey, we are talking about a "Sir" here...you want to drive for him you have to pay for such a honor!

I think Maldonado's manager is an awful negotiator anyways, I could make FW hire my mother for half that sum. For 46M I could make him hire my hedgehog as #1 driver and have Frank Williams in a ballerina costume coming to drive her to the racetrack in person.

[Doohan]

BradSpeedMan, on 15 February 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

these Williams guys are really hard-up for some cash... bloody hell

http://www.totalf1.c...2012_race_seat/

This is getting ridiculous. How many younger more talented drivers are sitting out due to paid for seats.
No wonder they didn't sign petrov. His motherland mob money couldn't compete with that ludacris sum.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on 11 December 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

Frank Williams? The guy that keeps breathing only because its for free? It has always been about the money with him. So its sually a big name with someone willing to pay for having him there (something that worked wonders when Williams was a great car) but nowadays is..err...well not so much. Follow the money.

It didn't always used to be like that. Frank has been known to pass up a driver with talent when he could have had him cheaply only to re-hire the same driver years later for a ton of cash. He's also refused to pay good talent with a proven record at car design. It's a wonder Williams have survived all these years with such a crazy business philosophy.

I'll tell you here and now that I don't think Frank Williams knows what the hell he's doing. His team has only tasted success accidentally; off the talents of technical people and drivers he's stumbled into hiring and who proved to be a gold mine of talent. And after he's mismanaged that talent, and said talent leaves the team, we then see Williams stumble and fall. I think everyone is now clued to this and Williams is finally reaping the harvest of years of bad decisions.

Controversial, I know, but true (as I see it).

So what should he do? Nothing he *can* do at this point. He's incapable of making a good choice.

Were he smart, he'd worry less about the driver and more about getting a design 'star'.

[Massa]

Just for perspective: $46,000,000 in sponsorship would cover two top-flight NASCAR teams and have a little left over for a third upper-mid-pack one, and seven top-flight IndyCar teams with a solid eighth car at the Indy 500.

Government wasting money?  Get off my lawn, screw infrastructure, we have wood to burn and all that stuff.

But the fact drivers are paying for their seats isn't what bothers me; that's how it has to go if you want a full grid, how it's always gone, and how it always will go.  The fact anyone could ever think they're getting any kind of return on spending that kind of money is what I find offensive.

I don't think there are many sponsorships in any form of racing that can be justified.  If it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot more than "maybe someone will see this, associate our brand with performance/glamor/technology/speed/risk (I love when car insurance companies associate with NASCAR, or financial services companies associate with the high-risk IndyCar...I mean do they even think this stuff through), and hope someone somewhere is in some kind of situation making some kind of decision where they subconsciously associate the brand and use it, and doesn't do that at a really low price, I don't see why you do it at all.

And for every racing fan you gain image-wise, how is racing perceived outside of racing circles?  Not very well, not as accepted as other sports where, even if you aren't a soccer fan, you aren't usually offended by soccer.  More people are offended by racing, on premises, wrongful or not, of "it's killing the drivers and the polar bears and it's stupid and for dumb people and it's loud get it off my lawn we have wood to burn."  So one of those people sees you sponsor a racing car and you're actually hurting your image...

Personally, in regards to PDVSA/CITGO, I like to make the association that gas really is all the same so just save me money at somewhere that looks legit enough I won't get shot while filling up.  Are there really people out there who would let a romantic association of some attribute of auto racing to a brand dictate their decisions?  I realize there's more to it than that, I'm not that naïve, but it's failing on some level and that alone reduces what the value should be.

I know one sponsor in NASCAR took the approach that if the team could refer 50,000 followers to their Facebook page, they'd expand their presence within the team.  Free advertising; 50,000 people's friends get to see "Bubba likes Kingsford" and go to the page and, rather than associate with an image, they associate with whatever they claim about Kingsford as an actual product.  It's not perfect, and I don't use Facebook personally, but I can almost see it...

...but then you break it down to paying to go through a third party to get "free" advertising and I don't think the ripple effect of each "like" is going to add up to NASCAR money.  You may as well just bypass the whole sponsor a stock car team part, don't you think?  I think that a lot of brands in racing are only in racing because they're scared they'll lose customers they already have if they leave (i.e. Budweiser and NASCAR, would they turn on their beer of choice if they left after decades in the sport?  Point being I'd guess it's easier to lose sales by leaving racing than it is to gain sales by entering, so you're paying for loyalty/retention, which isn't a total loss but eventually your customers have to pay for themselves.  I'm only saying, the "well if it was so bad they'd all pull out" thing doesn't necessarily work without flaw).

Okay really guys I have no idea what I'm saying.  I just like the sound of my own typing.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on 15 February 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

It didn't always used to be like that. Frank has been known to pass up a driver with talent when he could have had him cheaply only to re-hire the same driver years later for a ton of cash. He's also refused to pay good talent with a proven record at car design. It's a wonder Williams have survived all these years with such a crazy business philosophy.

I'll tell you here and now that I don't think Frank Williams knows what the hell he's doing. His team has only tasted success accidentally; off the talents of technical people and drivers he's stumbled into hiring and who proved to be a gold mine of talent. And after he's mismanaged that talent, and said talent leaves the team, we then see Williams stumble and fall. I think everyone is now clued to this and Williams is finally reaping the harvest of years of bad decisions.

Controversial, I know, but true (as I see it).

So what should he do? Nothing he *can* do at this point. He's incapable of making a good choice.

Were he smart, he'd worry less about the driver and more about getting a design 'star'.

I don't think is that controversial, as I never valued Frank Williams' talent much. Like you said, he had more luck than actual talent and he wasted both. Years of managing the team like Minardi has finally brought them to Minardi levels. From a spectator point of view, nowadays Williams would be more useful as a Minardi team than vainly hoping for them to automagically become the Williams Renault of old, complete with Newey and the best JV. It's past midnight, Cinderella

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Which brings us back to my post of http://www.totalf1.c...post__p__339402

[dribbler]

Autumnpuma, on 15 February 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

It didn't always used to be like that. Frank has been known to pass up a driver with talent when he could have had him cheaply only to re-hire the same driver years later for a ton of cash. He's also refused to pay good talent with a proven record at car design. It's a wonder Williams have survived all these years with such a crazy business philosophy.

I'll tell you here and now that I don't think Frank Williams knows what the hell he's doing. His team has only tasted success accidentally; off the talents of technical people and drivers he's stumbled into hiring and who proved to be a gold mine of talent. And after he's mismanaged that talent, and said talent leaves the team, we then see Williams stumble and fall. I think everyone is now clued to this and Williams is finally reaping the harvest of years of bad decisions.

Controversial, I know, but true (as I see it).

So what should he do? Nothing he *can* do at this point. He's incapable of making a good choice.

Were he smart, he'd worry less about the driver and more about getting a design 'star'.

I fear you may be right. His latest decsion to go the double pay driver route is shameful. If he at least chose racer talent over bucks he would be true to his old school racer traditions. But no, this is just all a bit of a shame. I do think thought that there was more to his success than luck, back in the day. Frank and Patrick were true innovators. These days they are dinosaurs hanging on to an F1 that killed off everyone else with a Manufacturer tie up meteor. Williams had their chance with Munich, but they blew it. I don't see the way up from here.

[Autumnpuma]

dribbler, on 16 February 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I fear you may be right. His latest decsion to go the double pay driver route is shameful. If he at least chose racer talent over bucks he would be true to his old school racer traditions. But no, this is just all a bit of a shame. I do think thought that there was more to his success than luck, back in the day. Frank and Patrick were true innovators.

In what way? They had early success, but p!ssed the talent off (mostly by underpaying them) that created the success...and the talent left.

dribbler, on 16 February 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Williams had their chance with Munich, but they blew it. I don't see the way up from here.

I suppose, but this is one business decision of Frank's that I understand. BMW wanted to own the team. I think Frank did right by telling them to take a hike because, ultimately, most manufacturers will abandon their team and bail out of the sport.

[KoolMonkey]

Williams certainly has a bad track record of losing talent. I'd be happy for the Ralfie & Montoya days of Williams at this point, let alone the Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days. Frank gone off his boil I think. Too many years of making bad decisions. And I think Patrick Head played a crucial role in the team more than folks realise. But he's retired now and it's let to Frank to front the team. Just how much decision making he does other than the drivers and sponsorship I don't know. I do understand he's trying to stay alive as a racing team, but accepting $45m for a driver who would have never been a candidate for one of their race seats says it all.

For a driver to pay $45m for a seat is ridiculous. With that kind of money PDVSA could have just bought out HRT or Virgin and branded the whole team with their logos. As it is now, they aren't exactly getting their monies worth in car coverage. Heck I thought up to this point they were some small fry sponsor on the car.

[Autumnpuma]

KoolMonkey, on 17 February 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Williams certainly has a bad track record of losing talent. I'd be happy for the Ralfie & Montoya days of Williams at this point, let alone the Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days. Frank gone off his boil I think. Too many years of making bad decisions. And I think Patrick Head played a crucial role in the team more than folks realise. But he's retired now and it's let to Frank to front the team. Just how much decision making he does other than the drivers and sponsorship I don't know. I do understand he's trying to stay alive as a racing team, but accepting $45m for a driver who would have never been a candidate for one of their race seats says it all.

For a driver to pay $45m for a seat is ridiculous. With that kind of money PDVSA could have just bought out HRT or Virgin and branded the whole team with their logos. As it is now, they aren't exactly getting their monies worth in car coverage. Heck I thought up to this point they were some small fry sponsor on the car.

The Ralfie/Montoya days saw a great car designed by Gavin Fisher. Gavin, like so many talented folk Frank stumbled into, left the team later on..it is somewhat unknown what his real reason for leaving was (the official reason sounded odd). Most of those days can be credited to Fisher and BMW. Senna, Mansell, Hill, JV days: Senna tested for Frank before he drove a car in F1. Frank passed him up. Later Frank paid through the nose to hire him. Brilliant, Frank. All the rest can pin their success mostly on the car. JV and Mansell were quick in their own right, but they dominated because of the car. It all comes back to the talent Frank has employed (mostly people that were new or had fallen on bad times..remember Newey was fired as Leyton House's results plummeted and Frank snatched him up on the cheap).

After revealing team members with talent, Frank has consistently mis-managed them and underpaid them until they left him for greener pastures.

Other teams have squandered their talent as well but perhaps Sir Frank's biggest success is that he's still putting cars on the grid.

[Massa]

Mike's posts are pretty interesting to read, and while a lot of this predates me, I have a hard time disagreeing.  It's prompted me to wonder, a bit...

I think we all have a tendency to attach ourselves to the very best something ever was, and just assume that that's what it truly is, rather than really try to think about why it was that way and why it isn't that way now.

You see it with Ferrari, too, I think.  We all like to think of Ferrari as what they were in 2000-2004, but from what I gather (and it could be dead wrong, some members here aren't particularly old and could still be my grandparents), the decade-and-change preceding that era featured a team that was essentially a manifestation of Felipe Massa on a larger scale: cute and cheerful with spirit, character, and heart, stumbling into the odd success, something you noticed and felt a vague sympathetic attraction to, pathetic to the point you don't even bother to criticize them because you're more embarrassed for them than frustrated.  Sometimes, the right people just congregate in the right place, take you to great success, and then they leave, and you find what's really at the core of the team to begin with: now Ferrari's back to just being a pretty name on an ugly team and rather than being surprised they aren't contending, we should be surprised they ever had gotten back to being a championship team.

I realize it doesn't work as well on them being the most successful team, and there's an element of exaggeration, but I think it illustrates what I see in Williams.  F1 is often viewed through the British lens, and that's not a bad thing at all so don't take that the wrong way, and as such, Williams becomes "Our Team" with "Our Nige" driving and there's just an attachment to that era and a few years after.  But just because they were winning doesn't mean they were well-run, doesn't mean they had a formula for success, doesn't mean they were visionaries or heroes.  Fans want the norm for them to be the title years because they gave them happiness, but it's not the case.

It happens all the time outside of F1; why do people stay past their welcome in relationships, or keep going back?  Because they subconsciously want to remember something at its best, they let that override the bad stuff, because clearly, the best must be the true side.  No justifications, it's just what we assume, we want to assume it.

So why do we keep coming back to Williams and to Ferrari?  Why do we stay with them?  Are they really that great?  Or do we just attach ourselves to a greatness, and rather than explore why they had that greatness and why they lost it, we just figure, to win in this game, you have to have some tremendous merit?

Now let's have someone more well-versed in F1 history, maybe even witnessing it themselves, tell me I'm wrong.  Please.