325 replies to this topic

[Piotr]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Like you said, I conveniently forgot about those.Otherwise, the joke wouldn't have worked

It wouldn't work anyway, because Robert is already driving an F1 car. Ok, maybe "driving is a strech, on account he is winning all of the on-line F1 races....

[HandyNZL]

Bob is not readily available due to his ongoing health issues.  

Perez is already contracted to Ferrari.

Ergo ipso facto, Perez is more in line for the seat than Bob.

Now, if Bob was racing, it would be a whole other story as most likely he would have been in red this year just as a matter of course, and Massa would never have had a 2012 Ferrari contract.

[JHS18]

Sadly, Kubica's F1 career is sadly done for good.

I doubt you can ever be the same sort of driver that you were after an accident like that...

[Quiet One]

JHS18, on 30 March 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Sadly, Kubica's F1 career is sadly done for good.

I doubt you can ever be the same sort of driver that you were after an accident like that...

Allow me to disagree. And disavow the "Massa has never been  the same since his accident in 2009" in the meantime.

1. The obvious: it is impossible to measure "what kind of driver he would have been if not for the accident". I assume we are talking about mental consequences, not physical ones, of course (a driver without an arm will obviously never be "that kind of driver if not for the accident"). Post accident trauma is like talking about the sex of the angels.

2. Of the few things that can be objectively taken into account when talking about post accident traumas, one is how conscious you were during the accident itself. In Massa's case, he never knew how bad it was or even that he had an accident until he woke up in the hospital, and by that time he already knew that it was horrific, but not particularly "traumatic".
Basically, he got hit in the head badly and passed out as far as his inconscius can process. Consciusly, yes, it was a near death accident. But if that affects a driver, then he is also conscius that he is scared and that it is limiting his performance. In Kubica's case, his Rally accident was even more terrible, and he was partially conscious through it, and in any case the recovery process alone is enough to traumatise anybody. Yet, as for the moment of the accident itself, probably would have been less "traumatic" than his Canada accident in F1, when he was conscious all the time while travelling upside down in a disintegrating car at top speed.

3. Many drivers suffered horrific accidents and it didn't stop them from having perfectly normal F1 careers. Barrichello had one such accident and close to the death of his beloved friend Ayrton. Maybe he would have ended up being a 9 times WDC champion and we would be now saying "remember that german guy that once drove along the great Rubinho? Whatshisname, Shoemaker?". Rubinho always admitted the trauma (curiously, he always mentioneed Ayrton's dead more of a trauma than his own accident), yet, he still went on to pursue the longest F1 driver career. Not too shabby.

4. Schumi, broke his legs. Alonso's car was disintegrated at Interlagos, Perez, huge frontal shunt at Monaco, Kubica himself and his Montreal accident, etc. As we cannot possible know how much better they could have been without those accidents, it is impossible to measure the impact. But they certainly kept having quite succesful careers, accidents or not.

I think if Kubica can solve his physical issues, he will be more than fit to keep being one of the greatest drivers on the grid. I also think that Massa's accident is not to blame for his lack of performance. Even if we admit that different drivers are affected differently, then the mere fact that his performance was so affected puts his mental fitness for a sport like F1 into question.

[Rainmaster]

I don't know whether Kubica is done just yet. I know you can recover from accidents and still return very strong. Many drivers did it, a good example being Mika Hakkinen who suffered head injuries in an accident in 1995, yet it never seemed to dent his abilities or his mental capacity to drive. Maybe the difference (providing a driver can physically recover) in returning as strong as ever is in the age of the driver or the stage of their career. A young charger is much more likely, I'd guess, to take a hard knock and recover mentally than a driver who has been around for a little longer.

I think the mental make-up of the driver before the accident is important, too, for example a guy like Massa was never that mentally strong. Yet I still don't agree, although it is impossible to know, that Massa's accident massively dented his driving. Though I do think his problem is a psychological/mental problem more than anything, but it's more the result of a different mental catastrophe than the accident: Alonso's arrival and the realisation that he was no longer the team's favourite. Whatever Massa's problems are, it seems almost certain that he isn't the same driver, and whether it's the accident, Alonso's presence, or a combination of both that must be a mental thing rather than physical (if you can reasonably separate those things at all ).

Kubica on the other hand you'd have to say probably is mentally strong. What I'm trying to say here is: I don't think Kubica would have a mental limit if he could recover physically. The problem for Kubi is that the physical aspect looks very difficult in his case, because of the nature of the injuries.

Edited by Rainmaster, 30 March 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 30 March 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

I don't know whether Kubica is done just yet. I know you can recover from accidents and still return very strong. Many drivers did it, a good example being Mika Hakkinen who suffered head injuries in an accident in 1995, yet it never seemed to dent his abilities or his mental capacity to drive. Maybe the difference (providing a driver can physically recover) in returning as strong as ever is in the age of the driver or the stage of their career. A young charger is much more likely, I'd guess, to take a hard knock and recover mentally than a driver who has been around for a little longer.

I think the mental make-up of the driver before the accident is important, too, for example a guy like Massa was never that mentally strong. Yet I still don't agree, although it is impossible to know, that Massa's accident massively dented his driving. Though I do think his problem is a psychological/mental problem more than anything, but it's more the result of a different mental catastrophe than the accident: Alonso's arrival and the realisation that he was no longer the team's favourite. Whatever Massa's problems are, it seems almost certain that he isn't the same driver, and whether it's the accident, Alonso's presence, or a combination of both that must be a mental thing rather than physical (if you can reasonably separate those things at all ).

Kubica on the other hand you'd have to say probably is mentally strong. What I'm trying to say here is: I don't think Kubica would have a mental limit if he could recover physically. The problem for Kubi is that the physical aspect looks very difficult in his case, because of the nature of the injuries.

Bah, you just said what I already said, only better.

(Which is as if Massa said "Bah, Alonso just drive like I did, only better" )

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Bah, you just said what I already said, only better.

(Which is as if Massa said "Bah, Alonso just drive like I did, only better" )

To be fair, he said it a lot better than that even

I agree with you both that it seems as if Massa mentally isn't coping, yet even under those circumstances you would expect him to go to some tracks and think I used to be quick here before, I can do it again.

Maybe the car is completely the opposite way to the way he likes it (unlikely).  Maybe the crash did some cognitive damage  

[Quiet One]

pabloh20, on 30 March 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Maybe the car is completely the opposite way to the way he likes it (unlikely).  Maybe the crash did some cognitive damage  

Not going to explain what we all know about how the same car cannot perform the same for two different drivers. Even then, the difference is abysmal, you would think that a capable driver as much as he prefers some very specific car (like Button) would still be able to extract more of a car that doesn't suits him than Massa did.

As for cognitive damage...well, I don't think you are worse now than you were before his accident, if that helps.

[AleHop]

HandyNZL, on 30 March 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Now, if Bob was racing, it would be a whole other story as most likely he would have been in red this year just as a matter of course, and Massa would never have had a 2012 Ferrari contract.

Yepes.

[HandyNZL]

Race drivers and crashes...tell me, when has a race car driver ever been afraid to crash?

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Not going to explain what we all know about how the same car cannot perform the same for two different drivers. Even then, the difference is abysmal, you would think that a capable driver as much as he prefers some very specific car (like Button) would still be able to extract more of a car that doesn't suits him than Massa did.

As for cognitive damage...well, I don't think you are worse now than you were before his accident, if that helps.

That's why I said unlikely.

This is true.  However, since the accident you eyesight seems to have gone completely, if something is in brackets it's like it is invisible to you

[Massa]

I guess they won't be replacing him with Liuzzi...

http://www.autoblog....erstars-series/

[Quiet One]

pabloh20, on 30 March 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

That's why I said unlikely.

This is true.  However, since the accident you eyesight seems to have gone completely, if something is in brackets it's like it is invisible to you

Nah, I wasn't trying to contradict you, I was just merely stressing the point.

And my eyesight is perfect...although my aiming is a little off, I admit. BTW, sorry about that ear infection

[Piotr]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Not going to explain what we all know about how the same car cannot perform the same for two different drivers. Even then, the difference is abysmal, you would think that a capable driver as much as he prefers some very specific car (like Button) would still be able to extract more of a car that doesn't suits him than Massa did.

As for cognitive damage...well, I don't think you are worse now than you were before his accident, if that helps.

Not true. Heidfeldt and Kubica had "the same car" and yet one was thriving and the other didn't (who they were depended on the car and the year. Heidfeld did great in 2007, Kubica in 2008.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Massa peaked the year Hamilton got the WDC.

Since then he has looked off form.

He was always reasonably fast, not necessarily WDC material.

However, my perception (and it is only a perception) is that since the accident he has performed less well. Now maybe it is sub-conscious? It would be interesting to see the stats.

And whilst I agree that some drivers perform well after an accident, others do not - Niki Lauda, for example. So its hard to generalise.

It may not be an accident thing - could just be that he's slightly more crap than he was before

[AleHop]

Piotr, on 31 March 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not true. Heidfeldt and Kubica had "the same car" and yet one was thriving and the other didn't (who they were depended on the car and the year. Heidfeld did great in 2007, Kubica in 2008.

Kubica was new to F1 Heidfeld an experienced driver.


Heidfeld never was WDC winner material, Kubica showed very soon he just needed a competitive car to be up there, fighting with the best.

[Massa]

Every head injury is different.  Different in what it damages, different in recovery time, etc, etc.  That's why head injuries are such a *****.  Massa was driving well in 2009, given how behind the car was, prior to his injury.  Would he have won a race in 2009?  Possibly.  One could say "well Räikkönen did, and Massa was outperforming Räikkönen," but had Räikkönen not become number one again, the car may not have gone in the same direction and never won.  But regardless, Massa was doing well in 2009.

The only reason I'd discount the head injury, which I still think makes a difference, but not a significant one...

In 2010, he led the points for a little while early in the year.  He was right on par with Alonso, and then something happened to Alonso in Malaysia.  Why?  Well, Ferrari couldn't design their 2010 car around Alonso at first, because Alonso wasn't on the team.  Then the car developed around Alonso, as it should have, since Alonso can close the deal and Massa never could, and Massa stopped being a factor.

Does that explain why he's just so crap at not hitting things now?  Maybe.  If he's lost confidence in himself when he drives, he'll be more careless.  If the car is so grossly misaligned to his style, he's going to spin it around.  Why?  Because he's not a top-tier driver, and he never was, and that's why I like him.  He's a guy who had no business ever contending for titles and he contended for a title.  He, like Ferrari, just came back down to Earth...and that's probably 98% of it.  He had a career year, a fluke, like many athletes do, where it just all went okay (most of the going okay was his competitors trying to lose the title as hard as he was trying to win it).  1% is probably the head injury and any related psychological effects he may or may not have had.  1% is probably that the car is geared toward the better driver, Alonso, which makes it that much harder for Massa.

[JHS18]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Allow me to disagree. And disavow the "Massa has never been  the same since his accident in 2009" in the meantime.

1. The obvious: it is impossible to measure "what kind of driver he would have been if not for the accident". I assume we are talking about mental consequences, not physical ones, of course (a driver without an arm will obviously never be "that kind of driver if not for the accident"). Post accident trauma is like talking about the sex of the angels.

2. Of the few things that can be objectively taken into account when talking about post accident traumas, one is how conscious you were during the accident itself. In Massa's case, he never knew how bad it was or even that he had an accident until he woke up in the hospital, and by that time he already knew that it was horrific, but not particularly "traumatic".
Basically, he got hit in the head badly and passed out as far as his inconscius can process. Consciusly, yes, it was a near death accident. But if that affects a driver, then he is also conscius that he is scared and that it is limiting his performance. In Kubica's case, his Rally accident was even more terrible, and he was partially conscious through it, and in any case the recovery process alone is enough to traumatise anybody. Yet, as for the moment of the accident itself, probably would have been less "traumatic" than his Canada accident in F1, when he was conscious all the time while travelling upside down in a disintegrating car at top speed.

3. Many drivers suffered horrific accidents and it didn't stop them from having perfectly normal F1 careers. Barrichello had one such accident and close to the death of his beloved friend Ayrton. Maybe he would have ended up being a 9 times WDC champion and we would be now saying "remember that german guy that once drove along the great Rubinho? Whatshisname, Shoemaker?". Rubinho always admitted the trauma (curiously, he always mentioneed Ayrton's dead more of a trauma than his own accident), yet, he still went on to pursue the longest F1 driver career. Not too shabby.

4. Schumi, broke his legs. Alonso's car was disintegrated at Interlagos, Perez, huge frontal shunt at Monaco, Kubica himself and his Montreal accident, etc. As we cannot possible know how much better they could have been without those accidents, it is impossible to measure the impact. But they certainly kept having quite succesful careers, accidents or not.

I think if Kubica can solve his physical issues, he will be more than fit to keep being one of the greatest drivers on the grid. I also think that Massa's accident is not to blame for his lack of performance. Even if we admit that different drivers are affected differently, then the mere fact that his performance was so affected puts his mental fitness for a sport like F1 into question.

Maybe so. But on the basis of the slow to none existent progress he's making currently, I think my point is valid. Massa's recovery was quite quick. He only missed half a season and was back to start 2010. Of course, I'm not saying their situations are similar. But if Kubica did have any chance of returning, I think we'd have seen a heck of a lot more progress being made. Okay, there's been sketchy reports of him driving cars, but nothing has been officially confirmed.

I think in a way you underestimate the seriousness of his injuries. This wasn't simply a case of Schumacher breaking his legs or whatever. Even his Canada crash was far, far worse that his rally accident. You only have to look at his injuries - sure his Canada crash was probably at a much greater speed, but thanks to the safety of F1 cars, he escaped basically unharmed. F1 crashes and rally crashes are fundamentally different things - you can't really compare the two. Using the logic that he was fine in an F1 crash, so he'll therefore be fine in this is a bit foolish.

The sad fact of the matter is that rally cars are not, and never have been, as safe as Formula One cars. It's probably fair to say that it is much more likely a driver would get seriously injured in a rally crash than in an F1 crash - and Kubica is living proof of that. Again - it is completely different situations. You can't compare a rally stage to an F1 track, both have different dangers, and besides, it is easier to make an F1 track safe whereas it is much more challenging to do the same for a rally stage. Aside from maybe Monaco, on a rally stage you are much closer to hitting something hard than you are on an F1 track. Run off zones don't exist in rally.

I know Alguersuari got a lot of stick for saying what he did - but if there is any truth to that, then you're kidding yourself if you think there's any hope of him returning. The seriousness of his injuries, and the fact that he's been away from the c#ckpit for so long now...yeah, it doesn't look good.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for more than anything to see Kubica return, for the same feel-good reason that it was a fantastic story to see Massa return after his injuries. I haven't got an agenda against his return or anything.

But from the little we have heard it seems fairly likely he is done in F1 for good. Do you not think if there was any chance of him returning at all, it'd be a major story? No doubt they'd try and make a big deal out of it - but as it is, we haven't heard anything since he rebroke his leg - and that in itself points to the fact that everyone really knows that there's zero chance of him coming back, to the point that eventually talk of his return will be forgotten. He'll maybe return to race in some form of motorsport one day, but I very much doubt he'll ever return to F1 as a race driver anyway.

Edited by JHS18, 31 March 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Bah, you just said what I already said, only better.

(Which is as if Massa said "Bah, Alonso just drive like I did, only better" )

I just wanted to get my own thoughts in order, and by the end I realised I had basically just repeated your post... it seemed such a waste not to share it with you all!

@JHS. I think the main thing is that we just don't know what progress he is making, who he's in contact with, etc. We'll only know for sure whether he is still able to perform when somebody gives him an F1 test (maybe Ferrari, they're very charitable these days..). Other than that it's just a guessing game and it's enough to say if, and it's a big if but nevertheless remains an if, if he can recover physically, he'll probably be there mentally.

[JHS18]

Rainmaster, on 31 March 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

when somebody gives him an F1 test (maybe Ferrari, they're very charitable these days.

You mean "if" they give him a test?

As I've written elsewhere, I think it would be a massive gamble to take Kubica on. As discussed, nobody knows if he'll perform at the same level again, so it'd be a huge risk. What if they took on Kubica and he wasn't the same driver? They'd be stuck with another underperforming driver. Then what?

Take someone like Perez. He's young, he's improving and he's available.

Kubica...who knows what'll happen to him? No-one. I'd rather go on the basis of the here and now rather than on the hope Robert will still be the same driver as he was in the past...

[Rainmaster]

JHS18, on 31 March 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

You mean "if" they give him a test?

As I've written elsewhere, I think it would be a massive gamble to take Kubica on. As discussed, nobody knows if he'll perform at the same level again, so it'd be a huge risk. What if they took on Kubica and he wasn't the same driver? They'd be stuck with another underperforming driver. Then what?

Take someone like Perez. He's young, he's improving and he's available.

Kubica...who knows what'll happen to him? No-one. I'd rather go on the basis of the here and now rather than on the hope Robert will still be the same driver as he was in the past...

It's a long series of "if's". If he recovers functionality in all of the relevant limbs I'm sure there will be more than one team offering him a test. If he performs well in that test then I'm sure offers will be there, where possible, for a race seat. It becomes much less of a gamble the more information you have, that's what you'd get from a test. I think it would be relatively obvious to a team and to Kubica himself whether he is on the limit or not; there's only one seat in an F1 car so there's nowhere to hide.

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 30 March 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Nah, I wasn't trying to contradict you, I was just merely stressing the point.

And my eyesight is perfect...although my aiming is a little off, I admit. BTW, sorry about that ear infection

It's ok, no permanent damage, although my headphones don't work anymore, which is a bit of a pain as I need something to keep me amused during it...............

[HandyNZL]

JHS18, on 31 March 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Maybe so. But on the basis of the slow to none existent progress he's making currently, I think my point is valid. Massa's recovery was quite quick. He only missed half a season and was back to start 2010. Of course, I'm not saying their situations are similar. But if Kubica did have any chance of returning, I think we'd have seen a heck of a lot more progress being made. Okay, there's been sketchy reports of him driving cars, but nothing has been officially confirmed.

I think in a way you underestimate the seriousness of his injuries. This wasn't simply a case of Schumacher breaking his legs or whatever. Even his Canada crash was far, far worse that his rally accident. You only have to look at his injuries - sure his Canada crash was probably at a much greater speed, but thanks to the safety of F1 cars, he escaped basically unharmed. F1 crashes and rally crashes are fundamentally different things - you can't really compare the two. Using the logic that he was fine in an F1 crash, so he'll therefore be fine in this is a bit foolish.

The sad fact of the matter is that rally cars are not, and never have been, as safe as Formula One cars. It's probably fair to say that it is much more likely a driver would get seriously injured in a rally crash than in an F1 crash - and Kubica is living proof of that. Again - it is completely different situations. You can't compare a rally stage to an F1 track, both have different dangers, and besides, it is easier to make an F1 track safe whereas it is much more challenging to do the same for a rally stage. Aside from maybe Monaco, on a rally stage you are much closer to hitting something hard than you are on an F1 track. Run off zones don't exist in rally.

I know Alguersuari got a lot of stick for saying what he did - but if there is any truth to that, then you're kidding yourself if you think there's any hope of him returning. The seriousness of his injuries, and the fact that he's been away from the c#ckpit for so long now...yeah, it doesn't look good.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for more than anything to see Kubica return, for the same feel-good reason that it was a fantastic story to see Massa return after his injuries. I haven't got an agenda against his return or anything.

But from the little we have heard it seems fairly likely he is done in F1 for good. Do you not think if there was any chance of him returning at all, it'd be a major story? No doubt they'd try and make a big deal out of it - but as it is, we haven't heard anything since he rebroke his leg - and that in itself points to the fact that everyone really knows that there's zero chance of him coming back, to the point that eventually talk of his return will be forgotten. He'll maybe return to race in some form of motorsport one day, but I very much doubt he'll ever return to F1 as a race driver anyway.

How dare you make such a brash statement without doing proper research?  Rally stages ALWAYS have run off zones, and here's proof:

[Quiet One]

Well, well, well...the first candidate that everybody dismissed because "obviously, he would not go back there to receive the same treatment, is the first to step up (unless we consider Button's  latest comments as some sort of hint). Rubinho has offered himself to replace Massa.

He has quite an impressive V, after being Schumi's bitch for so many years he would certainly adapt quickly to the same role for Alonso

And it's not a  bad option either. The guy knows the cars, knows the team, knows Alonso, even during Schumi's dark age he was more than capable of bringing the odd win here and there, and I know many would disagree but I think that he will perform better beside Alonso than he did beside Schumacher. He will be more motivated and closer to Alonso's level of performance than he was in Michael's days. I bet he is even capable of challenging Alonso in qualy positions, although probably Alonso (either with the help of team orders or not) will definitely beat him in the long run.

Alonso's only problem will be if Barrichello qualifies right ahead of him, as Barrichello can't make a decent start even if measured against Webber.

http://www.superspor...aspx?Id=1327011

[Massa]

It's not even on the table.

An Italian website did a fan poll of who they would like to see replace Massa.

Barrichello won.

The Italian magazine then interviewed Barrichello about it.

He simply didn't dismiss that he'd be open to returning to F1 at some point.

Careless journalism.  Well, actually, that's redundant, isn't it?

Of course, Andrés' point that Barrichello would return to Ferrari, there are no hard feelings, etc. stands.  But he's not been invited, and he's not even inviting himself.  An anti-Massa rag invited fans to invite him.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

I'm surprised the following hasn't happened:

The scene: Stefano's office...

"...when the moon hits ze sky like..."

RING RING

"Allo?"

"Hello Stefano, remember me? I hear you need a good second driver and I *am* a former WDC..."

"Mika? We'd love to have you back!..."

"No, no its not Mika, its..."

"Michael!!! Fed up with the silver arrows? Not surprised, come and see me...."

"No Stefano not Michael, my father was in F1 too, its...."

"Nico! Pop by"

"STEFANO, its Jacques!....

<click>

"Stefano? Hello? there seems to be a problem on the line...."



ALTERNATE ENDING...

"OK Jacques, come on down -.........we don't really care about your racing, we just want to see some hot chick from the UK walk naked down Old Kent Road..."
http://www.totalf1.c...ndpost&p=308432

[Jack Acid]

I would love to see Kubica return and ideally, return to form. He was a very good driver and has a bright future in F1, if only he can heal properly.

[Massa]

Kubica was testing a rally car last week I believe.

But he can't pick up a glass to drink from, and if he did, he'd get a terrible cut, and contract a horrible disease, so he best not try!  Jaime Alguersuari, M.D. told me so.

[Jack Acid]

Massa, on 17 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Kubica was testing a rally car last week I believe.

But he can't pick up a glass to drink from, and if he did, he'd get a terrible cut, and contract a horrible disease, so he best not try!  Jaime Alguersuari, M.D. told me so.

I was wondering if that report was true...

Last year they said he'd be racing this year with no problem. Hard to say, it almost sounds like his hand was completely crushed or almost severed. Obviously a terrible injury whatever the extent was.

[Rainmaster]

Massa, on 17 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Kubica was testing a rally car last week I believe.

That boy will never learn.