276 replies to this topic

[F1 FANatic]

LabradoRacer, on 28 September 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

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OK, I always ask myself this question when i see pictures like this: What does this idiot know of 1) Baseball, and 2) The colorodo Rockies. (by idiot I don't mean Lewis personally, I just mean some guy wearing a baseball cap with the bill in that stupid looking unbent half sideways pose, from a country that has zero baseball heratage)

I wonder if this is what went through his mind when he went to the hat store:

Let me find a hat from team playing a sport I know nothing about, but let's pick a team that isnt the Yankees because EVERYBODY buys a Yankees cap, no matter if thay even know who the Yankees are or even what a baseball bat looks like. Hey, this hat is cool, it's purple and has the initials CR on it. I have no clue who CR is, was he some famous baseball player? Oh, there are so many of them still left, the only two other hats that have more in the store are from C and some wierd star. They must have so many hats from these guys because they are sooooooo good people always want to buy them. Let's take the hat from the third best team then. People won't tell me I don't know anything then. And, it's not like I'll have a hat from the worst team, not like I WANT to be seen as hippster. What is hippster anyway. The americans always make fun of them.

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is how Lewis Hamilton ends up buying himself a Rockies hat, a team that was somehow beat by SAN DIEGO for god's sake(I am from San Diego and am a die hard Padres fan just FYI). Either that or he just stole the thing because in the picture he looks like nothing more than some low level hoodie on a CONAIR flight. I thought cellphones weren't allowed in prison. Then again, with that baby face you can probuably get anything you want in prison if you know how to use it.

/totally off topic rant

[Massa]

You know, months and months and months ago, Insider was the first one to suggest Hamilton/Brawn, before any media outlet.  Now it happened.

I can't figure out the Colorado Rockies hat.  He spent a lot of time in Las Vegas with Adrian Sutil when they were still friends.  Doubt they were watching baseball (but maybe they were pitching and catching...gaah I shouldn't have gone in that direction).

Good opportunity for Pérez.  Full confirmation now that Vettel is Ferrari's 2014 target, as if anyone needed more.  Ferrari are about to get served a cold dish, I think, but then again, they invested very little in Pérez; they only signed him after he had a drive with Sauber.  Telmex took him this far and helped him find his own *** (can we just talk about Skip Barber for a minute here... ), helped his brother hit a few people in the *** in stock cars, and now he has one of the top drives in the world.  Moral of the story: Marco Andretti will never sleep again knowing he won the championship well clear of Pérez, who he probably never even noticed, and has accomplished nothing of interest in his career.

[Quiet One]

http://www.thef1time...s/display/06795

Was this also part of the plant or did somebody did just make some huge miscalculation?

[Massa]

I don't think the 2014 engine regulations really weighed on his mind at all.  I'd be surprised if they did.

He went for money.  Image is more important than results in making money, too, for the "but if he wins, he'll get endorsements" crowd.

He also went for money.

And then he went for money.

After that, he went for a change of scenery and to work with Ross Brawn and to comprehensively beat his teammate.

After all that, he remembered how he only actually one won title with McLaren and how McLaren haven't won a WCC in years and years.  We can see McLaren more believably winning things than Mercedes, but McLaren hasn't.  May as well try to mold Mercedes into something better because McLaren's not changing and for being arguably the best team on the grid they haven't delivered (no wonder the FedEx partnership ended a few years ago...talk about a marketing mismatch there).

There is nothing that conclusively convince anyone that someone's 2014 engine is going to be better than anyone else's.  Lewis isn't that naïve.

And at the end of the day, he went for money.  And he should have, so a huge pat on the back for Lewis from me!  I hate that "going for money" inherently has a negative connotation.  It shouldn't!  Going for money is rational.

I wish Hamilton well at Mercedes because no one can convince me that it wouldn't be good to have both Mercedes and Hamilton giving it their all in the title fight next year.  They're a good team and he's a good driver and as fans of the sport first, I think anyone would want to see them both reach their potential.

[Quiet One]

Nah.

We keep making the same mistake with each of these issues. We think too little of the people involved. I guess it's only natural as we see these "stories" and assume they're nothing but a bunch of blind characters and. like most stories, the characters know less than we do. Arguments like "X is stupid going to team Y, can't he see that Z is going to happen?"

Well, if WE can see it, then most probably they did. And a lot more that we CAN'T see as well.

If it was just about money, he would have signed with Merc ages ago, Why drag this for so long? I bet Merc made him a tempting offer ages ago and McLaren was never going to match it. That was clear since the beginning.

F1 people (even Lewis) have more complex personalities than we give them credit for. Not all decisions are based on binary choices.

Now, don't make me go there and slap you with a rubber chicken

[Massa]

So Lewis Hamilton signed with a team based on regulations that were never confirmed and based on a totally speculative remark from Ross Brawn that a works team would have an advantage in 2014?

I think I'm misunderstanding (as usual).

EDIT: I guess you might mean Hamilton considered that in 2014, it's basically a wide open reset, where everyone has a chance to mix up the grid, so there's no advantage or disadvantage to be with any team that has some resources behind it?  In that case, yeah, that would make sense.

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 29 September 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

EDIT: I guess you might mean Hamilton considered that in 2014, it's basically a wide open reset, where everyone has a chance to mix up the grid, so there's no advantage or disadvantage to be with any team that has some resources behind it?  In that case, yeah, that would make sense.

This.

But yes, I think the main factor was money. In any case, I am unable to judge if ultimately it is good or bad for Lewis. And, in any case, Bernie's "should/could" are either a badly disguised order to his lackeys or some product of advanced senility. I am not sure how can they judge when he is making sense and when he is merely derailing.

Sometimes I get this unnerving suspicion they cannot tell either.

[AleHop]

Hamilton found McLaren's twitter clause hard to swallow, maybe?

It was the right moment for a move like this. 2007-12 (6 seasons) is a lot of time in F1. His contract was to be renewed but he decided to go to the modern Silver Arrows seeking their old times and glory. And a load of money. Of course.

[KoolMonkey]

So long Lewis. I never warmed to him when he first came into F1. Personally, and guys this is only my opinion, I felt him to be exhitibiting behaviour of one who was born with a silver spoon, or a child born in a rich family, who has always had his way. He's a good enough talent to have won a WDC, but from a personal standpoint I hated the fact he had won one. As the years went on I mellowed to him somewhat and started to appreciate his driving skill. But again over the past year, I started seeing him as essentially an undisciplined spoilt child. He never seem truly and honestly grateful about anything. So so long Lewis. Merc won't be pulling a Brawn anytime soon. Brawn was a complete an utter fluke if you will of having all the perfect ingredients come together at the same time. They would not have won anything had Honda stuck around and they used their engines. Luckily for them, the pitlane and Mercedes took pity on them and agreed to supply them with engines, thinkign as we all did they would be at best midfielders. The rest is history of course.

For that to happen a second time in that team, isn't going to happen. Where has Merc been this year anyway? They got get their first maiden win -- but Maldanado also won a race.

I'd have alot more respect for Lewis if he had come into F1 like Alonso or Webber doing the hard years in a small team. Unless Brawn has something amazing in the wings, I see Lewis getting frustrated very quickly, and Brawn is not going to put up with Lewis' BS either. Neither will Mercedes for that matter. Twittering telementry of your own team? Don't even think about it, he'd be sacked as he rightly should have.

Still he got what he wanted which was money. That's why he signed with XIX in the first place. Money. So enjoy the money Lewis, and I'll be laughing when in a year or two's time you are whinging, whining how the car isn't quite there, how you want to WIN, and being the same childish person we have seen for years. Hopefully you'll grow up with this experience and learn some class. You see, money can't buy class, it has to come from within.

[Quiet One]

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Button has stopped following Lewis on Twitter and now is following Perez. There's panic in the stock market!!!!!!!!

On another note: it wasn't Nikki Lauda who acted as an intermediary between Lewis and Merc. "My" inside connections told me that it was actually old Max Mosley, but they didn't want to go public about that. According to my sources, Max went straigth to Herr Haug and told him: "Lewis needs more of ze payment"

*drumfill*

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

So what makes you think McLaren are going to be any more competitive? They should have won more championships recently.

I think the Mercedes move is not a bad one for Lewis, will do him some good to try life in a different team and the opportunity to do what Schui did for Ferrari.

And for fans, will mix things up a bit and, will be interesting to see Perez and thank goodness for putting Schui out of his misery.

[KoolMonkey]

History I guess makes me think McLaren will be more competitive. Merc are still an unknown at this point. I'm getting a Toyota vibe from them currently. McLaren have a great track record of developing a car over the season. Plus they continue to win races, year in year out. I agree they should have won more Championships, however in order to win one, you have to be winning races. Thus at this stage, my vote says McLaren are still a better chance of winning anything at this point over Merc.

I hope Schumi gets picked up by Ferrari. Apart from 2008, Massa is a spent force. Schumi isn't going to rattle Alonso either. I would be a very fitting end to his career I think. Plus would suit nicely if Vettel does indeed end up going to Ferrari in 2014. Massa can head back to Sauber, and I think do alot better free of the Alonso is faster than you bubble.

[Insider]

KoolMonkey, on 29 September 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

History I guess makes me think McLaren will be more competitive. Merc are still an unknown at this point. I'm getting a Toyota vibe from them currently. McLaren have a great track record of developing a car over the season. Plus they continue to win races, year in year out. I agree they should have won more Championships, however in order to win one, you have to be winning races. Thus at this stage, my vote says McLaren are still a better chance of winning anything at this point over Merc.

I hope Schumi gets picked up by Ferrari. Apart from 2008, Massa is a spent force. Schumi isn't going to rattle Alonso either. I would be a very fitting end to his career I think. Plus would suit nicely if Vettel does indeed end up going to Ferrari in 2014. Massa can head back to Sauber, and I think do alot better free of the Alonso is faster than you bubble.

I'll go along with that. With Bernie mooting that the new engine will probably be scrapped, perhaps Lewis will deteriorate into the English Jarno Trulli.

[Rainmaster]

Bernie has never liked the new engine regs though. Yet he never managed to stop it being signed off, and I don't see him getting it scrapped, either.

As for Hamilton's move, I'm just wondering how many more obvious headlines and stories it'll generate. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19765967. Who would have guessed it was Hamilton who instigated it?

One thing which Brawn does say is "There isn't a number one status," he said. "To be clear, Lewis never mentioned that in all the discussions we had with him. He wanted to make sure that he had parity, that there was equality in what was done, but he never ever asked for number one status. We wouldn't be keen to give that to a driver because it tends to say you're not looking after the other driver as well as you should." Obviously, I am not saying he won't be number one (see Paul's posts).

[LabradoRacer]

Though I don't dislike Lewis, I do think & hope that Mercedes will continue to flounder next year.

[DPR]

I am still in total shock with this (not the whole Lewis deal)but.........Eddie Jordan does not always speak total nonsense!!!

[JHS18]

I will actually DIE laughing if these new engines are scrapped.

Of course that was part of the reason Lewis went there. He'd have been stupid not to consider that. I think his decision was made basically on the fact that sure, '13 may not be up to much, but '14 with these new engines could see Mercedes suddenly be one of, if not THE, leading team on the grid.

And now they may be scrapped as soon as he's signed a contract with them?

Hahahahaha. Oh my.

Cheers Bernie. That's comedic timing right there.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Hamilton really does seem to polarise opinion....

I'm not a fan of him particularly, but a fan of F1 generally. For me, I'd like to see a spread of world class drivers driving in world class cars.

...which is why I find it strange that anyone should wish bad fortune onto him or for that matter, Mercedes.

Bizarre.

[BradSpeedMan]

JHS18, on 29 September 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

I will actually DIE laughing if these new engines are scrapped.

Of course that was part of the reason Lewis went there. He'd have been stupid not to consider that. I think his decision was made basically on the fact that sure, '13 may not be up to much, but '14 with these new engines could see Mercedes suddenly be one of, if not THE, leading team on the grid.

And now they may be scrapped as soon as he's signed a contract with them?

Hahahahaha. Oh my.

Cheers Bernie. That's comedic timing right there.

Whether or not the new engine rules are implemented is irrelevant. The team has been steadily building up it's resources and team structure and is showing an upward curve, and is likely get it right in a year or 2, especially with an exceptional driver like Hamilton...

[Rainmaster]

Yep.

Again, people put too much weight on certain things here. First the money and now the engines. The whole engine argument is pure speculation anyway. It is not an absolute. You cannot say "the engine formula got dropped therefore Lewis' decision was wrong". Even if it does get dropped you have to assume a lot of things to make that a significant point, firstly, that in 2014 there will be major performance differences between the engines that the manufacturers bring to the season. Not everyone agrees that will be the case. Even if it is, you then have to assume that Mercedes were going to be the engine manufacturer that ended up making the best engine that year. Again, a massive leap since Ferrari and Renault are not exactly newcomers to designing engines. To put it in short, Lewis is making a gamble here regardless of whether you have new engine regulations or not, and he knows it.

The real reason he left Mclaren is obvious enough: he was no longer happy at Mclaren. If you don't believe that then asky yourself why did he approach Red Bull and Ferrari first (the two teams much more likely to be successful than Mercedes)? Let's cut the money nonsense and the engine speculation.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 29 September 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yep.

Again, people put too much weight on certain things here. First the money and now the engines. The whole engine argument is pure speculation anyway. It is not an absolute. You cannot say "the engine formula got dropped therefore Lewis' decision was wrong". Even if it does get dropped you have to assume a lot of things to make that a significant point, firstly, that in 2014 there will be major performance differences between the engines that the manufacturers bring to the season. Not everyone agrees that will be the case. Even if it is, you then have to assume that Mercedes were going to be the engine manufacturer that ended up making the best engine that year. Again, a massive leap since Ferrari and Renault are not exactly newcomers to designing engines. To put it in short, Lewis is making a gamble here regardless of whether you have new engine regulations or not, and he knows it.

The real reason he left Mclaren is obvious enough: he was no longer happy at Mclaren. If you don't believe that then asky yourself why did he approach Red Bull and Ferrari first (the two teams much more likely to be successful than Mercedes)? Let's cut the money nonsense and the engine speculation.

...and now you went the other way to the other extreme

I agree with you, and that is why I always believed that McLaren should not be his first choice but his last. He definitely seemed unhappy, whereas it was because of money, lack of competitivness from the team or Whitmarsh's body smell I couldn't tell but it was pretty obvious even before the twittergate that he was thinking more of a way out thanon on how to earn 3 WDCs before end of 2012.

But that much is obvious. The question is why would a guy who was almost genetically engineered to be THE MCLAREN CREATURE came to be such an unhappy figure.

Why do we care? What can we actually discover by discussing this endlessly, deconstructing every single gesture? Probably nothing, perhaps some trivial truth.

But we are F1 fans, we don't get to race the fast cars, to travel to ther fascinating destinations, to amass the big fortunes, to get he pretty girls. We get our diesel powered cars, we travel to our everyday works, we earn our meager salaries and we only get Paul.

So all this chitchat is both our way of entertaining ourselves between races and vent our thinly vented jealousy

I say lets speculate!!!

[Massa]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 29 September 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Hamilton really does seem to polarise opinion....

I'm not a fan of him particularly, but a fan of F1 generally. For me, I'd like to see a spread of world class drivers driving in world class cars.

...which is why I find it strange that anyone should wish bad fortune onto him or for that matter, Mercedes.

Bizarre.

I agree fully.  I can't imagine liking Formula One but not wanting more teams and drivers to be competitive.  I'm not going to judge people who are literally only watching F1 because they like a certain driver, of course.  I just don't understanding not wanting competition.

I also don't understand how anyone could watch F1 for a few years and not realize that, even without major regulation changes, a team that's not so competitive right now isn't going to be that way forever.  Mercedes can elevate Hamilton's game.  Hamilton can elevate Mercedes'.  Even if he's pursuing money, even if there aren't new engines, whatever, you really can't write them off on anything other than bitterness over Schumacher not getting the results to keep his seat (no one took anyone's job here) or bitterness over something else.

It's good for the sport to spread the best drivers over different teams.  It's good for the sport that the best drivers are willing to look beyond McLaren and Ferrari.  I enjoy the sport.  I like things that are good for it, personally.

[Rainmaster]

But I am not disputing people's right to speculate, oh bald one. Speculate away! Personally, I can find it quite easy to buy into the whole "Hamilton becomes his own person" reason for leaving Mclaren. But I don't care about that, it's enough to know that he was obviously unhappy at Mclaren. I was merely pointing out that the engine part may well have been a positive point for Hamilton, but is probably not as significant as some people think. If the regs do change, all Hamilton has "lost" is the relatively small chance that Merc might have come up with an earth shatteringly fast engine and blown everyone away (which would probably also require that the chassis is pretty decent too, another leap we have to make for this argument to work). In fact, arguably if the regs do change (i.e. stay the same) he's in a better position as he knows the current Merc box is pretty decent, and so that removes the possibility that in 2014 Ferrari or Renault turn up with an earth shatteringly fast engine...

So the engine regulations are NOT the make or break of this deal. The fact he approached two other teams would seem to demonstrate that.

Edited by Rainmaster, 29 September 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 29 September 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

But I am not disputing people's right to speculate, oh bald one. Speculate away! Personally, I can find it quite easy to buy into the whole "Hamilton becomes his own person" reason for leaving Mclaren. But I don't care about that, it's enough to know that he was obviously unhappy at Mclaren. I was merely pointing out that the engine part may well have been a positive point for Hamilton, but is probably not as significant as some people think. If the regs do change, all Hamilton has "lost" is the relatively small chance that Merc might have come up with an earth shatteringly fast engine and blown everyone away (which would probably also require that the chassis is pretty decent too, another leap we have to make for this argument to work). In fact, arguably if the regs do change (i.e. stay the same) he's in a better position as he knows the current Merc box is pretty decent, and so that removes the possibility that in 2014 Ferrari or Renault turn up with an earth shatteringly fast engine...

So the engine regulations are NOT the make or break of this deal. The fact he approached two other teams would seem to demonstrate that.

Ah, yes, I do agree.I don't think he moved to Mec because they would be in an onbvious b etter position either, because they are not. It is just a gamble. But the odds of a better car seemed better with a whole rules shuffle than within the current cars, as Merc seems not going forward as expected. It iis just a side of the story.

Speaking of which, and about speculation as well, it is amusing to read the weird theories we all make and how we get so involved in each one of these as to lose sight of t he overall picture (which is what usually happens when one speculates, of course). Among the reasons to defend Lewis move, for example, there's a group which takes a historical view on Merc to back the move, as if the triumphs of the silver arrows in the pre First War era would help them anyhow at present!

Easier to say, they have Brawn, Costa and Bob Bell, so it's not as if he is jumping into some unknown, out-of-nowhere risen team.

The short, non-speculative version being: if you feel happier meaning that you will also deliver finer drives then be my guest and go with my best wishes, Lewis, my son.

As I said before, even if Nando does not win this championship I'd rather see him losing it but looking as happy and racier as he looks today than if he had become the 2007 WDC in such a gloomy atmosphere (before somebody points out: I know he was part of it, I am not talking about who is to blame, I am talking about how grim it all seemed. Victory or defeat would have looked equally as bitter that year). I think Hamilton fans will appreciate the same about his boy now.

[AleHop]

I assume Brawn talked to Hamilton about 2014 engines and surely Mercedes is working hard to have everything ready in time. It doesn't mean Hamilton's decision is wrong or would have changed if he had known the new engines would be scrapped. Merc is the best F1 engine already.

[AleHop]

Quiet One, on 29 September 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

As I said before, even if Nando does not win this championship I'd rather see him losing it but looking as happy and racier as he looks today than if he had become the 2007 WDC in such a gloomy atmosphere (before somebody points out: I know he was part of it, I am not talking about who is to blame, I am talking about how grim it all seemed. Victory or defeat would have looked equally as bitter that year). I think Hamilton fans will appreciate the same about his boy now.

Curiously I think Alonso was happy in McLaren with the team, the NASA atmosphere, etc. I think he loved that. They've got Pat Fry in Ferrari to develop that type of working enviroment with a bit of Italian sauce.

[Insider]

Thus far, I have only speculated on the possibility of a move. Now Lewis has taken the shot, I fear he may be in the wilderness for some considerable time. As Whitmarsh said, if he wanted to win races consistently, he needed to be in a McLaren. I'm afraid he's probably right.

[BradSpeedMan]

Insider, on 29 September 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Thus far, I have only speculated on the possibility of a move. Now Lewis has taken the shot, I fear he may be in the wilderness for some considerable time. As Whitmarsh said, if he wanted to win races consistently, he needed to be in a McLaren. I'm afraid he's probably right.

That's NOT what I wanted to hear from your personal feelings....lol! I hope you're wrong

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 29 September 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[brambilla]

I think I read somewhere that the really important question is - who keeps the yellow helmet ? However, I think they can both co-exist. Hamilton has more going on with his helmet than Nico - enough to tell them apart.

[Quiet One]

brambilla, on 29 September 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

I think I read somewhere that the really important question is - who keeps the yellow helmet ? However, I think they can both co-exist. Hamilton has more going on with his helmet than Nico - enough to tell them apart.

It'll be easy to tell them aprt. The guy in ahead is Lewis.