269 replies to this topic

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 12 September 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yep! I should stress that my post is not a criticism of Alonso. Like you said, every driver wants the kind of position he has in Ferrari. Not every driver can get it, though, for example I don't think Mclaren are as impressed with say Jenson or Lewis (both on track and off) as Ferrari are with Alonso, and why would they be? Neither have been as impressive. But it isn't just that which makes the difference, imo. It's not even necessarily a criticism of Ferrari to say they are generally orientated around one driver more than other teams; that's one way of running a team. It can work extremely well in terms of WDC's and WCC's, no doubt about it. But they don't get to have their system and then expect to be defended in a discussion on equality. Indeed, you can dethrone the King at any team if you are good enough, I just think it's more difficult to dethrone a Ferrari King than it is a Mclaren one (and actually probably relatively more difficult at Red Bull too, in fairness), at the moment, and not just because of the relative strength of the team leaders.

Yup. That's basically my  point. Of course you would not want to go to a team to be #2. But that alone does not take any merits from the #1 guy. Regretfuly it is used in such way.
Let's use Vettel as an example (a guy I don't like) and Webbo (a guy that was always one of my favorites) to remove any suspicions of cheap Alonso fanboyism from my side
Same situation as with Ferrari. Marko and Horner only have eyes for Seb. They are nice to Webber only because they need him but clearly they think Webber is only good to feed Horner's pets Bernie and Flavio.
Yet, for one side, Webber can take the fight to Vettel more than once and even if that will never tilt the odds in his favor inside the team it is not as if they came with knives to kill him. On the other hand, it IS true that even then Webber NEVER seemed to be close to Vettel's levels of performance, favor or not.

So demanding and eventually getting a #1 status is one factor. But it is and must be kept by hard work every day at every race. This year Vettel is not last year's and Webber by mere consistency is up there with Seb. Look how fast many of the more blatant "gestures of favoritism" towards Vettel disappeared when it seemed iike Webber might be RBRs candidate for this year. Suddenly both seemed to be treated equally. Yet, Seb is slowly asserting himself back as #1, but, again, the differences given from the team were minimal. The main differences still lay on the drivers.

Massa is no Schumacher, unfairly kept as #2 because of Alonso's whimsical demands. The guy is #2 because of that but also because the guy has never been close enough to Alonso to be seen in Nando's rearview mirrors except when lapped. Ditto with Grosjean, Nelsinho, Fisichella, Trulli, Button...
Speaking of Boutton, he is the only one at the top, along with Kimi and Alonso who had to earn his medals by himself, whatever they are. These are guys who were in different teams, with different managements, with different cars and yet they always had to ascertain their status in each of these cases. One time explanations are always oversimplifying things.

Rainmaster, on 12 September 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I also agree that depending on the driver, none of this might ever come into their head so it is us thinking for them.  A driver like Perez might jump at the chance of a Ferrari seat without ever considering that it might be difficult to ever come out of Alonso's shadow. He might relish the opportunity to learn from Alonso, who he considers the best driver anyway. That's not to say that none of these observations are true, though. It just means that the drivers are always really self-confident and don't worry about being beaten, they just assume the day will come when they are at the top.

On Lewis: Apparently Lewis' management did contact Ferrari but Alonso vetoed it? Difficult to know whether that's true and anyway, I wouldn't expect Ferrari to be interested in hiring Lewis because he might upset the team harmony one way or another, and brings a lot of publicity, sometimes unwanted (ask Macca). It would also make sense as Alonso has always maintained that Lewis is his best rival.

If Alonso vetoed him (Alonso himself denied it but let's assume that it happened) people should also think how much a driver must give to a team for that team  to meekly accept not hiring a top driver like Lewis just because the other guy said no.
Imagine in 2008 (when Alonso signed with Ferrari). Massa, who was at the moment and still is a much loved Ferrari creature and was at the moment the star and WDC candidate trying to veto Alonso...
No more questions, Your Honor

In short. We agree

[Quiet One]

Ok, I hijacked this thread anough so let's get back on topic, sorry

dribbler, on 12 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Sorry, let me elaborate as to why I believe the above to be true;

1. All eyes are on Lewis, Martin Whitmarsh, Ron Dennis and McLaren as a whole. At the moment, we are all highly sensitised to facial expressions and interpretations of remarks made etc. This has happened before, even when the marriage was unquestioned. Don't read too much into it

True, but it is also true that the signs of the broken marriage are all there. This is a soap opera and some of the protagonists seem  to enjoy the drama, so why not go along?

dribbler, on 12 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

2. For all what we are led to believe about Lewis's desires for global exposure and XIX's agenda, I firmly believe his priority is to be in a race winning car. McLaren are currently his best option for this. It is not lost on me that Mercedes may be the best choice in 2014, but only potentially. As we have seen just recently with Lotus, saying you will step up and win does not mean you will. Ross Brawn has been working at Mercedes long enough now to have an impact if he was ever going to have one. I don't question his ability, but I do question his team as a whole.

Many interesting points there. 2014 is a blank slate according to people that knows more about cars than I do. I do not think it is going to be so dramatic but, again, I can't tell a sparkplug from a steering wheel. Hey...I have enough knowledge to replace Massa!
You mention Brawn and his team not working as a whole. I assume you mean (this is what I believe, actually) that having all the best pieces does not assure the best overall picture unless you make them fit together, and that is where brawn fails. Well, that is why I don't think Lewis is actually jeopardizing anything. Currently, Lewis at McLaren is a perfect piece in a perfect team, just not the perfect piece for THAT perfect team. If Lewis feels unhappy at Macca, then it doesn't matter if the car is the best. He will simply not be motivated enough to make fully use of the driver/team empowering each other.

dribbler, on 12 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

3. Lewis will look at how accepting austerity is no reflection on how McLaren rate him; it's just a consequence of the financial situation we are in. Button accepted a significant pay cut at Brawn for the love of racing, with spectacular results. If I had to accept £10m instead of £15m, in order to develop my car better and make me more successful, I would do it. I'm hoping his management company are mature enought to feel the same.

I don't think this is just about money, or they would have reached some sort of compromise long ago or, at least, kept the fight in lower profile levels. I bet they had money arguments before and never included such publics displays of mind games and gestures. This hints to more than coins, IMHO.

dribbler, on 12 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

4. This is not a done deal yet. If it were, Ron Dennis would not have said two days ago that negotiations were sensitive. I believe the truth behind that steely gaze is the frustration that Lewis is not committing to McLaren unequivocally. Instead, he's arguing over cash. With Ron and Lewis's history, this is no doubt rubbing Ron up the wrong way. If it were anyone else, they would be out on their arse. I also beleive that Lewis may want a one year deal in order to keep hi options open. Mclaren will want him long term. If there is a will on both sides, they will make it happen. I still believe in my heart that there is enough of a will on both sides to get the deal done, just.

Like you said, "just".

[Jean-Pierre]

Where ever he'll end up, he will beat his team mate everytime, and teams know that, so I'm pretty sure there is a race now to get his services. I'd like to see him at Ferrari, but it seems he will end up with Nico.

[Insider]

I have heard that the buzz in the pit lane is that:

1. LH wants clear No.1 status to stay at Woking
2. £25m a year
3. All his trophies back - seriously
4. A clause that allows him to leave at any time if he feels the team is not performing
5. Less promotional work for Macca's sponsors to allow him time on other deals XIX are setting up

Meanwhile, at Brackley, Merc feel obliged to offer MS a years extension and will sacrifice Rosberg to get LH if neccesary.

My source? A current Ilmor senior manager who worked at Renault with me as a young lad. nevertheless, it's still all a rumour.

[LabradoRacer]

Glad to read that Mercedes at least has the decency to offer Schumi an extension. Hope we see him racing.

Lewis-Schumi combo will be unsual, for sure.

[Insider]

LabradoRacer, on 14 September 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Glad to read that Mercedes at least has the decency to offer Schumi an extension. Hope we see him racing.

Lewis-Schumi combo will be unsual, for sure.

I would say it's unworkable.

[Massa]

Thanks for the info, Insider.  I definitely prefer the idea of Hamilton replacing Rosberg for two reasons:

1. I've never been a Schumacher fan but I just want to see one more race where Schumacher impresses me, which he did a ton in the one year I got to see of his prime (2006).

2. Giving Schumacher a one-year deal guarantees a decent seat will be open for 2014 (along with the Ferrari one that's expected to open in 2014 for either Vettel or Pérez), giving us more to discuss next season.

That said, I do think Rosberg more easily becomes a number two to Hamilton than Schumacher would.

[Massa]

Bob Varsha, the United States' F1 commentator for the last 26 seasons, says that a McLaren team member told him that "[Lewis Hamilton] should go."  I don't know if that's a "should go" as in yes, we're expecting him to go unless something weird happens, or a "should go" as in "wow I hate working with him I hope he leaves it's not going to be good if he doesn't."

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 15 September 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Bob Varsha, the United States' F1 commentator for the last 26 seasons, says that a McLaren team member told him that "[Lewis Hamilton] should go."  I don't know if that's a "should go" as in yes, we're expecting him to go unless something weird happens, or a "should go" as in "wow I hate working with him I hope he leaves it's not going to be good if he doesn't."

Yup, without proper context that's not much of a comment.

Next headline:

"Andres thinks Bob Varsha is 'not proper' "

[Peeweev]

First of I would like to lead with: "Adres thinks Bob Varsha is 'not proper'"

Just so Quiet one can be right


But back to topic, it seems thats the only place hamilton can go seriously will be mercs. From the rumours flying around he will go there but like many others im not convinved thats the best seat for next year.

Now presuming that hamiltons amin concern is winning everything he can then he needs to stay with mclaren for next year as they will have a similar car to this year as there is no massive rule change for next year so fast cars this year Should be fast next year. Merc is not quik enough this year only have 126 points and i believe that sauber will collect enough points in the last races to beat them to 5th. They are only 26 points behind mercs. so does hammi want to join the 6th best team?

If trophys are his desire and potential stumping point, as mclaren want to keep ALL trophies and only give replicas to the drivers, then mercs are a good place to go as he will get them.

If its money then agin he will be good but this seems slightly off to me as he will have plenty of money and im sure winning  titles is more important.

If its something thats soured in the team or with button then a new team is a good fresh start but im not sure that merc is the place to go.

If he goes to merc then who should partner him?

I believe that the obvious choice is Nico. He has won a race this year and seems to be the better driver in this car and under these rules (and I believe that schmuy has lost something of his previous pace). Nico and hammi have also been teammates in lower formulas (successful ones too) and they bvoth always seem to get on well together.

But what if they choose schmmy cos the cant sack him?!
He isnt a guy who likes to play second fiddle which he will if hammi goes or will have to if they want it to work. The big problem is a german team will struggle to get ride of the greatest driver who happens to be german too so they need him to make the decision to step down or move into another role within the team.

And what about driving styles? thats a big problem for schmmy this year as the car hasnt suited him. Will hammis style match schummy? or will they have to have a car thats designed for one guy and adapted for the other?

So where else couldHammi go?

Sauber? got a good package but not a winning team yet.
Lotus? Could he work with kimi? who knows we could ask the Iceman but he is busy doing a poo!

So i think he will stay or if merc can move schmmy somewhere and free up a seat then mayb merc.

Just to be fair i am a mclaren fan, and a hammi fan but i have tried to be fair in my assesment but ill leave you to judge



ps i think its time for Schummy to recieve this   even if its not hammi who comes there

[jestaudio]

Going to add my first thoughts on this forum, most off what is in the press or online is pretty much rumours but, and its a big but, i suspect there is agrain of truth in all of it somewhere, i don't personally think Hamilton is happy at Macca and i suspect that he will be on his way at the ened of the season, possibly to Merc or possibly out of F1 totally for the moment , perhaps doing a Kimi and trying another form of motorsport for a season then coming back with a new team when the regs change. All speculation on my part i must admit but as valid as any other .
on a side note looks like you guys have a pretty cool forum here.

[Massa]

Welcome to TF1.

Hamilton should be careful to not become Montoya.  Now some may argue Hamilton's half the driver Montoya is (see what I've done? ), but I just mean in terms of attitude.  Montoya had and has a way he wants things to be done and if his team doesn't adapt to that, they both lose in the end.  Hamilton's not the same, but there seems to be a similarity, where Hamilton has specific demands and finds it too hard to conform to a team, thinking you can just keep replacing guys or moving around until you find the right fit.  Usually, you have to fit yourself to something.  Hamilton's almost done the opposite of growing up since he entered F1 as a seemingly mature guy, at least in what I perceive which is surely not what I'd perceive if I actually knew him personally or professionally.

Basically, I think a change of scenery is a good idea for Hamilton, but I don't think it inherently solves everything.  Hamilton needs to be willing to fit some kind of mold to be a successful driver.  It's a two-way street: molding your team around you, and molding yourself to the team.  And the thing is, you don't get the freedom to do the former until you earn the trust and respect of those you work with.  A lot of times it sounds like Lewis hasn't.

[JHS18]

Just to complicate matters, apparently McLaren having been talking with Perez.

I guess they're trying to show Hamilton that they're not going to wait around for his decision forever, and he should either take what is on the table, or leave it.

In my eyes though, Ferrari would be monumentally stupid to let Perez fall into McLaren's hands. Sure, he might not be "ready" for a Ferrari drive just yet, but he's the only one in their YDA that is any good, and he's readier than the rest, on the basis he's the only one in F1.

[Peeweev]

Perez and hammi swap?

[DPR]

Peeweev, on 17 September 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Perez and hammi swap?

Wife swapping maybe............but not jobs

[dribbler]

Hamilton will stay at McLaren.

[Insider]

Most bookmakers have LH at odd-on to stay at Macca and very short odds on Schumi to re-sign, Massa to get sacked and Kovi to move on from Caterham. I wouldn't expect them to lose money all round but with McLaren talking to Perez, Kovi's agent summoned to Maranello and Charles Pic entering the frame for a Sauber drive something is bound to give soon. In reality. I see Woking as the only real prospect for Hamilton though he will need to smooth a lot of feathers on both side of the garage.  Twittergate will leave a bitter taste for a long, long while.  A Mercedes move would mean a season acclimitising and maybe a podium or two and then perhaps, a real challenge at the title in 2014 when the Arrows may have a slight upper hand. It's about as clear as mud right now but a former colleague threw me a curve ball at lunch yesterday. What if LH was p**sing about too much and Ron just went and hired someone, Michael and Rosberg stayed put and Force India and Sauber were Lewis's only options. Would he take one?

[dribbler]

Insider, on 17 September 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Most bookmakers have LH at odd-on to stay at Macca and very short odds on Schumi to re-sign, Massa to get sacked and Kovi to move on from Caterham. I wouldn't expect them to lose money all round but with McLaren talking to Perez, Kovi's agent summoned to Maranello and Charles Pic entering the frame for a Sauber drive something is bound to give soon. In reality. I see Woking as the only real prospect for Hamilton though he will need to smooth a lot of feathers on both side of the garage.  Twittergate will leave a bitter taste for a long, long while.  A Mercedes move would mean a season acclimitising and maybe a podium or two and then perhaps, a real challenge at the title in 2014 when the Arrows may have a slight upper hand. It's about as clear as mud right now but a former colleague threw me a curve ball at lunch yesterday. What if LH was p**sing about too much and Ron just went and hired someone, Michael and Rosberg stayed put and Force India and Sauber were Lewis's only options. Would he take one?

Interesting, as always....

I think the Kovalainen story carries a lot of weight. Second tier drivers are rarely invited for pasta and Fiat appreciation, without substance. Expect this one to be confirmed shortly (but not until they have squeezed every last bit of upward trend potential from Felipe).

I thik the Twitter debacle is a non issue. There are far more important things for the team as a whole to be concentrating on right now.

As for Lewis potentially being out of a drive? This possibility is why I think all the more that the negotiations with McLaren are very real, very strong and now at a point where they are arguing over minute detail. I predict there will be resolution before this weekend. If for no other reason than everyone in the team wanting the focus to be on Lewis's push (and very real chance) for the title.

Sauber are not a credible alternative for a top tier driver, no matter how good their season has been. They are midfield fodder with an occasional eyebrow raising performance. They would have very little forum attention if the driver market was secure.

[Quiet One]

dribbler, on 17 September 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

Interesting, as always....

I think the Kovalainen story carries a lot of weight. Second tier drivers are rarely invited for pasta and Fiat appreciation, without substance. Expect this one to be confirmed shortly (but not until they have squeezed every last bit of upward trend potential from Felipe).

I thik the Twitter debacle is a non issue. There are far more important things for the team as a whole to be concentrating on right now.

As for Lewis potentially being out of a drive? This possibility is why I think all the more that the negotiations with McLaren are very real, very strong and now at a point where they are arguing over minute detail. I predict there will be resolution before this weekend. If for no other reason than everyone in the team wanting the focus to be on Lewis's push (and very real chance) for the title.

Sauber are not a credible alternative for a top tier driver, no matter how good their season has been. They are midfield fodder with an occasional eyebrow raising performance. They would have very little forum attention if the driver market was secure.

Although the McLaren option always seemed as the most logical and it all seemed like some customary negotiation tricks, you must agree that all this got way past the line a few tweets ago, to say the least.
I am not sure if this was actually planned by either of the negotiating sides or merely got out of hands, but the road back to Macca for Lewis is beyond a mere signature now.

OTOH, it is true that they need to close down this circus pronto, or they risk throwing away this championship where they arguably were the closest in performance terms to get. With a sour Lewis and a team with no love for him, it will be an uphill struggle.

If Lewis is seriously considering Merc, then the ideal scenario for me would be a Schumi/Lewis straight swap.

[dribbler]

Quiet One, on 17 September 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Although the McLaren option always seemed as the most logical and it all seemed like some customary negotiation tricks, you must agree that all this got way past the line a few tweets ago, to say the least.
I am not sure if this was actually planned by either of the negotiating sides or merely got out of hands, but the road back to Macca for Lewis is beyond a mere signature now.

OTOH, it is true that they need to close down this circus pronto, or they risk throwing away this championship where they arguably were the closest in performance terms to get. With a sour Lewis and a team with no love for him, it will be an uphill struggle.

If Lewis is seriously considering Merc, then the ideal scenario for me would be a Schumi/Lewis straight swap.

You are right, of course, but as a complete cop-out, I'm going to say that no one knows what goes on behind closed doors and to what extent the relationship has soured, if at all.

On this basis, one reverts to face value and logic. That's all I'm doing here. I hope Mclaren and Lewis do the same.

[thejudge13]

dribbler, on 12 September 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

This is not a done deal yet. If it were, Ron Dennis would not have said two days ago that negotiations were sensitive. I believe the truth behind that steely gaze is the frustration that Lewis is not committing to McLaren unequivocally. Instead, he's arguing over cash. With Ron and Lewis's history, this is no doubt rubbing Ron up the wrong way. If it were anyone else, they would be out on their arse. I also beleive that Lewis may want a one year deal in order to keep hi options open. Mclaren will want him long term. If there is a will on both sides, they will make it happen. I still believe in my heart that there is enough of a will on both sides to get the deal done, just.

I think it maybe, and there are voices (yes I know lots of them) who feel Lewis burned his bridges last year, particularly with Ron D. Many people seem to be clinging to the logical point of view, why would Lewis leave. (cf Joe Saward today http://joesaward.wor...r-negotiations/)

He may just be being pushed http://thejudge13.co...-being-pushed/XIX certainly have an interest in moving him on as why would they look good getting him a deal with McLaren not as good as the one his Dad sorted last time, and RD has been adamant many times that Lewis will have to accept less money.

Add this together with James Allen's opinion that there are those at McLaren tired of 'the pantomime of life with Lewis" http://www.jamesalle...ve-to-mercedes/ and it doesn't look good.

[JHS18]

First of, welcome to the forums. Some valid points.

I think Hamilton really is playing with fire at the moment, and it'd be incredibly easy for him to get burnt.

I honestly don't see why Hamilton is viewed so highly by Mercedes, particularly if he was to replace Schumacher. I think it is clear to most people Hamilton lacks the maturity and focus to really lead a team forwards, like Schumacher is very much capable of doing so.

I'd just love for this to somehow go completely wrong and for him to either end up without a drive completely, or have to put up with a drive at somewhere like Marussia or Caterham.

Sadly, neither is likely to happen, but I can dream, right?

[dribbler]

JHS18, on 17 September 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

First of, welcome to the forums. Some valid points.

This.

[Quiet One]

dribbler, on 17 September 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

This.

Indeed on all acounts.

[Insider]

Quiet One, on 17 September 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Indeed on all acounts.

Ditto. Personally, an announcement in Singapore would break the monotony of rain, rain and more rain - if you take any notice of forecasts.

[dribbler]

Insider, on 17 September 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Ditto. Personally, an announcement in Singapore would break the monotony of rain, rain and more rain - if you take any notice of forecasts.

Are you talking about the weather, or Eddie Jordan's spurious shennanigans?

[Insider]

Eddie's wet, for sure but quite  why this race is held right in the middle of the dreaded south-west monsoon season is beyond me.

[pabloh20]

Insider, on 19 September 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Eddie's wet, for sure but quite  why this race is held right in the middle of the dreaded south-west monsoon season is beyond me.

It's the start of Bernie's sprinkler idea.  This is the cheap option.

[freaky2]

Or maybe they discovered that they get more audience when they're showing Kimi eating an ice-cream.

[JHS18]

Insider, on 19 September 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Eddie's wet, for sure but quite  why this race is held right in the middle of the dreaded south-west monsoon season is beyond me.

Doesn't seem to be doing them any harm on the basis it has never once rained for qualifying or the race since they started going there.