Hamilton Vs Vettel, See The Video

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

There are several problems with your observation as an explanation for the choke

Maure, I'm not making excuses, just an observation. The rear wing angles are clearly different and would make a big difference to the handling. That is beyond question. That's a fact. To answer one of your points the wet tracks were at the beginning of the race (fresh rubber) and at the end (worn rubber) - that *could* explain the difference in Hamilton's competitiveness/grip at different stages of the race.

The implication from the wing angles (probably also reflected in ride height and suspension setup) is that Mclaren took a different view on setup to STR. This *must* have made a difference to the Vettel/Hamilton situation.

Now whether he faltered/made a mistake/hesitated - don't know, don't really care. I'd say that he was under a lot of pressure and may have made a mini c#ck-up. He is human after all. However, whatever happens you cannot deny that the different car setups played a role in the situation.

I still can't quite understand why this is such a big deal. Let's for one minute give you the benefit of the doubt and say he did "choke", whatever that means. So what? He still won the championship. i.e. scored more points than the others...

So your point is either that he made a mistake, maybe he did and lots of other drivers do too. Why pick on him and this specific incident, there are dozens of others that he and other drivers have made this season?

Or you are just doing it to wind up Hamilton fans (of which I am not one), in which case you have no right to claim "violence" - if you keep poking a wasp's nest with a stick don't be surprised if you get stung.

[Max Mosley 2]

Maure thought about your post for a whole day and this is all he can come up with? He must be busy at work these days. All those papers do wear you down, _I_ can tell you.

1)The McLarens were in fact much slower than the STRs at the start of the race too. Had it not been for the safety car, Lewis would almost certainly have been passed by Vettel, as Kova was.

2)To think that any team can set a car up perfectly for changeable weather is ludicrous. McLaren's set up would have been fine if they had been less conservative in the long dry part of the race. They were too confident of their own weather forecasts, much as Maure is, it seems.

3)It has nothing to do with driver skill under pressure. It's everything to do with an under-performing car in treacherous conditions.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

There are several problems with your observation as an explanation for the choke:

1. Hamilton's car was fine at the start of the race, while it was wet. He kept Vettel behind without a problem.

2. To claim that McLaren designed a car that was worse than a Toro Rosso for a race with so much at stake is luducrous and, more so, considering the millions they claimed they spent on it.

3. And if points 1 & 2 were not damaging enough to your theory, Hamilton made a mistake and run wide. Nothing to do with speed. Everything to do with driving skill under pressure.

Murray has tried positing "magical setups" that change from moment to moment and "magical pitstops" that allow certain drivers to make adjustments while others don't depending on how desperately one searches for a excuse to Haimlton's choke. Cavallino posited the "faster but slower but faster but slower" excuse. I recommend Cavallino's and expecially Murray's approach every time, they are far more amusing.

You're fighting a losing battle. Just give up and lets all talk about something postive rather than negative

[yurp 0]

You're fighting a losing battle. Just give up and lets all talk about something postive rather than negative

give it up?

oh comon this is maure we're talking about here.

he's never wrong.

[maure 1]

Maure, I'm not making excuses, just an observation. The rear wing angles are clearly different and would make a big difference to the handling. That is beyond question. That's a fact. To answer one of your points the wet tracks were at the beginning of the race (fresh rubber) and at the end (worn rubber) - that *could* explain the difference in Hamilton's competitiveness/grip at different stages of the race.

The implication from the wing angles (probably also reflected in ride height and suspension setup) is that Mclaren took a different view on setup to STR. This *must* have made a difference to the Vettel/Hamilton situation.

Now whether he faltered/made a mistake/hesitated - don't know, don't really care. I'd say that he was under a lot of pressure and may have made a mini c#ck-up. He is human after all. However, whatever happens you cannot deny that the different car setups played a role in the situation.

I still can't quite understand why this is such a big deal. Let's for one minute give you the benefit of the doubt and say he did "choke", whatever that means. So what? He still won the championship. i.e. scored more points than the others...

So your point is either that he made a mistake, maybe he did and lots of other drivers do too. Why pick on him and this specific incident, there are dozens of others that he and other drivers have made this season?

Or you are just doing it to wind up Hamilton fans (of which I am not one), in which case you have no right to claim "violence" - if you keep poking a wasp's nest with a stick don't be surprised if you get stung.

The point you make about the setup would make sense if, for example, it were something that was a problem all race and not _only_ as Vettel passed him. Otherwise, it seems like an excuse to justify a single event that took seconds. You can see why.

Now, did the setup make a difference in the "Vettel/Hamilton situation"? At the start of the race, the respective setups (and cars) kept the McLaren in front and, at the end of the race, it didn't.

Regarding whether or not Hamilton made an error, he did. Therefore, why? We've talked about all drivers feeling pressure at one point or another. It's only normal. Why is Hamilton off limits?

Now, are drivers human? You bet. I'm not the one pretending that Hamilton doesn't make mistakes like the lewisterics are. The thing is that driver errors and, in particular, those that decide championships, are the stuff usually talked about here. It's only normal. Again, why is Hamilton off limits?

Regarding the poke at lewisterics, they choose this path everytime and, yes, I have fun at their expense.

My original intention was to talk about Vettel's skill. Consider my thinking. A guy in an inferior car put it on the guy that is the current WDC at the most crucial moment. That, again, is the stuff usually talked about here. If instead of Hamilton, Vettel had slammed Kimi or Alonso, especially the latter, the lewisterics would be all over it... could you really disagree on this?

[maure 1]

Maure thought about your post for a whole day and this is all he can come up with? He must be busy at work these days. All those papers do wear you down, _I_ can tell you.

As a matter of fact, I am busy these days. That's why I've been around more. This is a perfect way to relax (for me).

1)The McLarens were in fact much slower than the STRs at the start of the race too. Had it not been for the safety car, Lewis would almost certainly have been passed by Vettel, as Kova was.

Hamilton kept him behind without a problem. Watch the video.

2)To think that any team can set a car up perfectly for changeable weather is ludicrous. McLaren's set up would have been fine if they had been less conservative in the long dry part of the race. They were too confident of their own weather forecasts, much as Maure is, it seems.

You claim that McLaren failed to setup Hamilton's car properly for the race that decided the title to the extent that it was no match for a Toro Rosso.

Very difficult to believe.

3)It has nothing to do with driver skill under pressure. It's everything to do with an under-performing car in treacherous conditions.

You claim that Hamilton didn't run wide?

[maure 1]

You're fighting a losing battle. Just give up and lets all talk about something postive rather than negative

There is nothing to lose. I am not fighting.

But it is fun to hear that you consider talking about a race incident involving Hamilton as something "negative".

[maure 1]

give it up?

oh comon this is maure we're talking about here.

he's never wrong.

When are you wrong, dictionary man?

[Jem of the Shire 0]

There is nothing to lose. I am not fighting.

But it is fun to hear that you consider talking about a race incident involving Hamilton as something "negative".

Its negative because despite your claims that this thread is all about Vettel's skill, its clear to everyone that you're just trying to put a downer on Lewis' achievement. Heck I'm not even a massive Hamilton fan, I'm a Jenson man myself. But I still wouldnt say Lewis choked.

Its been admitted by several people on here that Hamilton made a mistake running wide. Doesnt mean he choked from the pressure of it all.

Again I feel I should point out that labelling people lewisterics is provocative and inappropriate.

[Jean Todt 4]

Who cares any more

Who cares? When or if this thread starts to die, he is going to just start another thread and accuse Lewis more, he is just having fun picking others and some people respond to him so seriously, I take him as a joke rather.

[yurp 0]

When are you wrong, dictionary man?

you still haven't read the post have you maure?

you know - every time you post without reading what you're answerig you make a complete tit out of yourself - you do know that don't you?

Its negative because despite your claims that this thread is all about Vettel's skill, its clear to everyone that you're just trying to put a downer on Lewis' achievement. Heck I'm not even a massive Hamilton fan, I'm a Jenson man myself. But I still wouldnt say Lewis choked.

Its been admitted by several people on here that Hamilton made a mistake running wide. Doesnt mean he choked from the pressure of it all.

Again I feel I should point out that labelling people lewisterics is provocative and inappropriate.

jemstride - I know ehere you're coming from buddy - but there's little point, if he can't argue with what you're saying he makes something else up, attributes it to you, and argues against that fairy-tale instead.

[yurp 0]

Who cares? When or if this thread starts to die, he is going to just start another thread and accuse Lewis more, he is just having fun picking others and some people respond to him so seriously, I take him as a joke rather.

indeed - but then again it is fun watching him embarrass himself.

he does more for his oponents side of the debate than he does for his own.

[Jean Todt 4]

you still haven't read the post have you maure?

you know - every time you post without reading what you're answerig you make a complete tit out of yourself - you do know that don't you?

jemstride - I know ehere you're coming from buddy - but there's little point, if he can't argue with what you're saying he makes something else up, attributes it to you, and argues against that fairy-tale instead.

I am afraid you are right, and many who have had the great prevelage to argue with him would have certainly noticed the fact that he does not read what we post, he just balantly accuse anyone who does not agree with him to be violent fan of Lewis. He does not read the posts where many of us have praised drivers with bigger eyebrows and accuse us to be anti eyebrows. But we need jokes like him to keep the forum spirits high. Actually a bit of controversy is good for this forum. So let us take Maure like the angry kid who would not stop screaming and p**sing on the deserts till we agree with him when he says that His dad is older than both his grand parents.

[Jean Todt 4]

.........

[Jean Todt 4]

you still haven't read the post have you maure?

you know - every time you post without reading what you're answerig you make a complete tit out of yourself - you do know that don't you?

jemstride - I know ehere you're coming from buddy - but there's little point, if he can't argue with what you're saying he makes something else up, attributes it to you, and argues against that fairy-tale instead.

I am afraid you are right, and many who have had the great prevelage to argue with him would have certainly noticed the fact that he does not read what we post, he just balantly accuse anyone who does not agree with him to be violent fan of Lewis. He does not read the posts where many of us have praised drivers with bigger eyebrows and accuse us to be anti eyebrows. But we need jokes like him to keep the forum spirits high. Actually a bit of controversy is good for this forum. So let us take Maure like the angry kid who would not stop screaming and p**sing on the deserts till we agree with him when he says that His dad is older than both his grand parents.

[yurp 0]

I am afraid you are right, and many who have had the great prevelage to argue with him would have certainly noticed the fact that he does not read what we post, he just balantly accuse anyone who does not agree with him to be violent fan of Lewis. He does not read the posts where many of us have praised drivers with bigger eyebrows and accuse us to be anti eyebrows. But we need jokes like him to keep the forum spirits high. Actually a bit of controversy is good for this forum. So let us take Maure like the angry kid who would not stop screaming and p**sing on the deserts till we agree with him when he says that His dad is older than both his grand parents.

- his dad IS his grandad surely

[maure 1]

Its negative because despite your claims that this thread is all about Vettel's skill, its clear to everyone that you're just trying to put a downer on Lewis' achievement. Heck I'm not even a massive Hamilton fan, I'm a Jenson man myself. But I still wouldnt say Lewis choked.

Its been admitted by several people on here that Hamilton made a mistake running wide. Doesnt mean he choked from the pressure of it all.

Again I feel I should point out that labelling people lewisterics is provocative and inappropriate.

You say that Hamilton didn't choke. Ok. I say (as others do) that he did.

You say that Hamilton's mistake did not come from pressure. Ok. Why can we not talk about that without insults and violence from lewsiterics?

Once you start telling those that insult that their behavior is "provocative and inappropriate",... well, why bother, that day that will never come.

By the way, kuddos on Button. I hope Honda manages to give him a car that will show again what he is capable of.

[maure 1]

you still haven't read the post have you maure?

you know - every time you post without reading what you're answerig you make a complete tit out of yourself - you do know that don't you?

Of course, dictionary man, of course.

[yurp 0]

Of course, dictionary man, of course.

I can hardly type! - Maure - you think that's funny - and indeed it is - you see, when you say 'dictionary man' the jokes on you. You're just digging yourself deeper every time you comment without reading. I know you don't understand why, because you haven't read the post - but that just makes even funnier. Please - say it again - pleeeeease - you've made my day. Tears of laughter are quite literally running down my face - this just gets better and better!

[maure 1]

I can hardly type! - Maure - you think that's funny - and indeed it is - you see, when you say 'dictionary man' the jokes on you. You're just digging yourself deeper every time you comment without reading. I know you don't understand why, because you haven't read the post - but that just makes even funnier. Please - say it again - pleeeeease - you've made my day. Tears of laughter are quite literally running down my face - this just gets better and better!

If only it were true that you find it funny, dictionary man, if only.

[mikathegreat2 2]

You say that Hamilton didn't choke. Ok. I say (as others do) that he did.

Like who???

[yurp 0]

If only it were true that you find it funny, dictionary man, if only.

OMG you did it again! you're such an fool! - I feel mean, but at the same time it's just so satisfying!

Go on - and again - pleeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaase please say it again! You'll never know the entertainment your giving me.

[mikathegreat2 2]

This fight is getting deep & personal! *pulls out M16*

[Kopite Girl 0]

This fight is getting deep & personal!

Indeed. And its bloody pathetic to be quite honest. They say that women are bitches....

[mikathegreat2 2]

Indeed. And its bloody pathetic to be quite honest. They say that women are bitches....

& Mr. Say is right