First Total F1 Debate

[Medilloni 6]

Well, I guess this is the end of it.

Nonsense Andres, just go for it dude - we're just chatting in the foyer, in anticipation of the start.

[yurp 0]

Well, I guess this is the end of it.

Guys. Seriously. Stop f*cking about now. Especially you, Chris.

There's a multitude of other threads you could p**s about in. Adam, start a new one. Bruce or Ecap, lock this one.

I'd really like to see if it could work. Yes, I know I got caught up too - but you're taking the p**s now. Behave.

Anybody dares to put a smart arse remark after this comment has got it coming to them and I mean it.

You've been told. Don't p**s me off.

Thats all.

I suggest I don't start a new thread now. It'll just get jumped on again.

How about this - when Andres is ready to do his intro he can then copy and paste my starting post with the teams, format and other stuff before he posts his intro. Then the debaters can get going. Sound okay?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Guys. Seriously. Stop f*cking about now. Especially you, Chris.

There's a multitude of other threads you could p**s about in. Adam, start a new one. Bruce or Ecap, lock this one.

I'd really like to see if it could work. Yes, I know I got caught up too - but you're taking the p**s now. Behave.

Anybody dares to put a smart arse remark after this comment has got it coming to them and I mean it.

You've been told. Don't p**s me off.

Thats all.

ooooOOOOOooooo get you!

No-one's started debating yet, and I'm not knocking the process.

Jeez lighten up people.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I suggest I don't start a new thread now. It'll just get jumped on again.

How about this - when Andres is ready to do his intro he can then copy and paste my starting post with the teams, format and other stuff before he posts his intro. Then the debaters can get going. Sound okay?

...and I promise not to mess about once you've done that...

[Kopite Girl 0]

ooooOOOOOooooo get you!

No-one's started debating yet, and I'm not knocking the process.

Jeez lighten up people.

Chris. Quit it. I didn't say you were knocking the process did I?

I'm asking you nicely to be nice.

Ok?

[JHS 1]

Happy to be drafted in as a spare. Hopefully I can bring something good to the yes team. Looking forward to it, it should be good!

[Schumikonen 2]

Hell of a draught in here, with the fish market just down the road 'n all

I didn't get it as usual but I am starting to think that I am in the wrong gruop in this debate, fisrt I heard about a group being naked and them someone being wide open, at the end of this it is going to be very difficult for me to come with a impartial opinion, right now is being very hard to stop thinking about it.

[Schumikonen 2]

I suggest I don't start a new thread now. It'll just get jumped on again.

How about this - when Andres is ready to do his intro he can then copy and paste my starting post with the teams, format and other stuff before he posts his intro. Then the debaters can get going. Sound okay?

What I suggest is not starting one of these threads until everybody is ready to start or at least the person who is responsible for the first post should start the tread that way we wouldn't have the thread hanging around giving time to other people to post in it, I must say that I wanted to jump in earlier but I holded myself until I couldn't resist no more, so there is no guarantee that this is not going to happen again, I guess the only way to keep this thread on track is by starting the debate right away we can even create antoher thread to debate the Debate.

[LabradoRacer 2]

I didn't get it as usual but I am starting to think that I am in the wrong gruop in this debate, fisrt I heard about a group being naked and them someone being wide open, at the end of this it is going to be very difficult for me to come with a impartial opinion, right now is being very hard to stop thinking about it.

Well, Medilloni was playing on 'left wide open'. The 'hell of a draught in here' refers to this. If a door's left wide open, it lets in cold air, doesn't it? And as for the fish market down the road, well, it's often said that a pussy smells like a fish (or maybe just the unclean ones). As a matter of fact, I had got an email a month back; a cartoon about this fish thing. There's this gated 'Home for blind lesbians'. A fisherman's walking outside the home grounds, carrying his catch. Every female hand is thrust through the bars, screaming, 'Gimme! Gimme!!"

[LabradoRacer 2]

And about the debate issue, I don't understand why anyone would begrudge Marko a few swigs of caffeine.

[Medilloni 6]

What I suggest is not starting one of these threads until everybody is ready to start or at least the person who is responsible for the first post should start the tread that way we wouldn't have the thread hanging around giving time to other people to post in it, I must say that I wanted to jump in earlier but I holded myself until I couldn't resist no more, so there is no guarantee that this is not going to happen again, I guess the only way to keep this thread on track is by starting the debate right away we can even create antoher thread to debate the Debate.

Tommy, thank you, you have just reduced me to tears of laughter. The double-meanings to come off the back of your post are sooooo many, and priceless!

The explanation about the draught and fish market from Labrodo are accurate enough

To Andres, Steph and debators (debatees?).... As Chris has also said, I won't be chirping in to spoil the thread once it's started. I'm looking forward to it, it's a great idea.

........but I can't help thinking this is like the park bench with a "WET PAINT, DO NOT TOUCH" notice

[Rainmaster 7]

........but I can't help thinking this is like the park bench with a "WET PAINT, DO NOT TOUCH" notice

Indeedy!

[cavallino 2]

It's gone the way of the global warming thread, and surprise, it's the same people again...

[Kopite Girl 0]

I'm just a grouch today.

But OK. Thanks for that, and Chris as well.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

It's gone the way of the global warming thread, and surprise, it's the same people again...

Oh, do you mean me?

Well Cav if you check you'll see I started the global warming thread, so in fact I could argue other people polluted the thread with all their globally warm air

Meds, you are 100% right - if it hadn't been me, someone else would have... way too tempting

And Steph, of course I wouldn't do anything to disrupt the debate. As Meds mentioned, this is the pre-event drinks and canapes - olive anyone?

[AleHop 0]

And Steph, of course I wouldn't do anything to disrupt the debate. As Meds mentioned, this is the pre-event drinks and canapes - olive anyone?

Drinks? Red Bull?

We should not be talking about it in the pre-debate.

[Autumnpuma 0]

The prosecution has a concern concerning the concern about time zone differences, personal schedules and the lack of a real good way to compare notes. The PM system here on this forum works well enough unless someone (don't listen, Cav, I'm talking about you ) has room in their inbox.

So, here's what I propose for the prosecution's case. Cav is the team leader and will present first. I'll look at what he's posted and try to respond to the defense as well as interject anything Cav might have missed. Brad will do the same when I'm done and Cav will take all of it and make a brilliant, defense-killing summary. This can all be accomplished without any discussion between the prosecution and that has a certain anarchist feel to it that tickles me in dark places.

[JHS 1]

Seeing as I'm the last from my group, I'll try to get my point posted as quickly as possible. Oh, just a quick question also. There were talks of a word limit for posts, is this in place and if it is, what is the limit?

[Quiet One 15]

First words, not as this debate's appointed mod, but as a forum member (IMHO):

First post by Chris: funny. Who would have resisted? Nothing to blame there.

Later posts AFTER saying you were all just chillin' before the debate starts: Well...ok. You could have done that at any other thread without making Adam's first post look wortless but whatever floats your boat and the harm was done anyways.

Anything else in the middle: Sorry, but seemed a little bit rude. I won't speak for Adam, but for myself, being put into a position where I should scold you like first graders (as I am doing somehow now) is rather humiliating. My idea of being a mod was just point here and there some inconsistencies in the hopes of a better debate and clearer ideas to come out, not babysitting. Mostly when I knew that if I posted this same things earlier somebody would come up with "geez, don't take it so seriously" or "you are just the debate's mod, you are not our boss" or something along those lines and that would have seriously angered me. I guess by now it is somewhat established that I can be as silly as the next guy. But this thread besides any differences in approach (and this debate isn't what I wanted it to be, if you need to know) was, I think, in the hopes of rising the discussions levels of this Forum. Something many illustrious members have complained about. Under that light, a minimal respect wouldn't have hurt anybody.

That is all I have to say as a forum member.

[Quiet One 15]

As you all know, the debate will be on whether Webber deserves his place at Red Bull. This first debate may not be as hot as "Lewis vs Nando" or anything like it, but will be a good excercise on how to carry on a mature debate when we move onto more controversial subjects. There are always lessons to be learned!

My take: the keyword in this debate will be the actual meaning of the verb "to deserve". My recommendation will be for each team to be clear on what do they understand as "deserving" to avoid the first fallacy you will learn today, young padawans: the false dichotomy. This happens when people discuss if it is either A or B as if they were mutually exclusive when actually they are not.

Don't worry, I will try to restraint myself to a minimum. If I point some fallacy it will be mostly to show the most common ones we tend to fall into in our everyday communication. I will only issue a real warning if one of them actually is stopping the debate from moving further.

There are plenty of them, and many are not worth avoiding as most issues tend to dwelve into very subjective or emotional stuff and ultra logical reasoning is not the same as achieving any Universal Truth or making you superior, just being aware that they exist might save you sometimes some waste of time on trivial subjects.

I thought about posting the names and examples of some of the most common ones, but that would make this intro too long and boring. So I will just point them as they show up. Remember that they don't automatically mean any discredit to the argument being carried, if I think any of them are an obstacle I will issue a warning. Again, this warning means nothing. There are no points to be won or lost, and no punishments. Just a learning experience.

Now I will shut up and we can all enjoy the show. Participants, the stand is all yours!

[yurp 0]

EDIT - can teams and the jury post in their colour too so the thread is easy to read?

green for Yes Team, red for No Team, pink for Jury, blue for Andres.

Format:

1) Open thread - set starting date for debate 4 days later (give teams a chance to prepare)

Part 1

2) Introduction from Andres

3) Yes Team Leader opening statement - Argento Reloaded

4) No Team Leader opening statement - Cavallino

5) Yes Team 2nd member argument - Kopite Girl

6) No Team 2nd member argument - AutumnPuma

7) Yes Team 3rd member argument - JHS

8) No Team 3rd member argument - BradSpeedMan

9) Yes Team Leader summing up - Argento Reloaded

10) No Team Leader summing up - Cavallino

Part 2

11) Andres - questions for Yes Team (received via PM from questioners, moderated and ordered by Andres)

12) Yes Team Leader, 2nd member and 3rd member rebuttals to questions. (1 post each) - Argento Reloaded, Kopite Girl, JHS (any order)

13) Andres - questions for No Team (received via PM from questioners, moderated and ordered by Andres)

14) No Team Leader, 2nd member and 3rd member rebuttals to questions. (1 post each) - Cavallino, AutumnPuma, BradSpeedMan (any order)

15) Andres calls on jury and sums up arguments from Teams (impartial - NOT judgement)

16) Jury Verdicts (5 posts, one from each jury member including judgement and reasons) - Monza, AleHop, Max Mosley, piquettheterrible2, Tommy (any order)

17) Andres pronunces winners according to jury verdict

18) Open poll (Public verdict)

[Argento Reloaded 1]

This is the first statement Fron the MWST (mark Webber Support Team ):

In a dog eat dog world as F1 seems to be, 8 years driving for top teams like Jaguar, Williams, Red Bull, etc. matching drivers like Montoya (very fat and fast) is a trong statement by itself.

The F1 appreciate his qualy pace and raw speed and professionalism and lack of fights out of the track.

I like to see some experienced drivers waiting for the opportunity to drive the car of therir lives -like Button last year. Maybe 2010 is Mark´s and Red Bull year as you could watched last sunday with a flawless performance.

Look at the grid now Chandok, Algersuari, Kovalainen, Senna, and many more with no experience and/or talent while Heidfeld is out watching the races by TV. Do you want Mark doing the same next year? after last race the answer is: NO!

He deserves a competitive car to show his talent.

Remember: you can think whatever you want as long it shares our thoughs!

Be careful the MWST is watching you

[cavallino 2]

Mark Webber arrived at a midfield, though aspiring Red Bull team. Now, quite clearly, Red Bull has outgrown Mark Webber, and he is becoming their weakest link. The problem isn't just his outright lack of pace compared to Vettel, that part is pretty clear to see. What is worse is his very poor racecraft after so many years in the show, a knack of either getting involved in incidents or provoking them and harming his own and his teams chances in the process. He has been flattered by poor teammates at different stages of his career, like Pizzonia and David Coulthard. He does put some decent drives in, but consistency is always always a big problem, he just doesn't can't drive at that level through a championship season. With their vast car superiority, Red Bull should have two good drivers, so they can steamroller through both championships, so that both drivers are pushed by each other.

Webber has huge personality issues, so he can't be a cerebral Button like driver who can overcome his minor lack of pace compared to some of the outrageously talented drivers with some clever driving. It was very telling when Williams were quite happy to let him go. Or remarks like "Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they **** it all up," - guess who the kid he was referring to here (back in 2007)? Sebastian Vettel.

Do Red Bull really want a 35 year old Webber driving for them next year, when they could hire anyone on the grid, in particular a certain Robert Kubeetza?

[dribbler 6]

Mark Webber arrived at a midfield, though aspiring Red Bull team. Now, quite clearly, Red Bull has outgrown Mark Webber, and he is becoming their weakest link. The problem isn't just his outright lack of pace compared to Vettel, that part is pretty clear to see. What is worse is his very poor racecraft after so many years in the show, a knack of either getting involved in incidents or provoking them and harming his own and his teams chances in the process. He has been flattered by poor teammates at different stages of his career, like Pizzonia and David Coulthard. He does put some decent drives in, but consistency is always always a big problem, he just doesn't can't drive at that level through a championship season. With their vast car superiority, Red Bull should have two good drivers, so they can steamroller through both championships, so that both drivers are pushed by each other.

Webber has huge personality issues, so he can't be a cerebral Button like driver who can overcome his minor lack of pace compared to some of the outrageously talented drivers with some clever driving. It was very telling when Williams were quite happy to let him go. Or remarks like "Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they **** it all up," - guess who the kid he was referring to here (back in 2007)? Sebastian Vettel.

Do Red Bull really want a 35 year old Webber driving for them next year, when they could hire anyone on the grid, in particular a certain Robert Kubeetza?

I think Mark would be the first to admit that his comment about Sebastien was a 'heat of the moment' response when emotions were running high at a time when he missed out on a great opportunity. The chemistry between them now is clear to see. Whilst I agree with your comments about consistency I don't necessarily agree that Red Bull should replace him with Kubica, even though he is faster and more consistent. Sebastien has enough on his plate, remaining patient at a time when the car is proving fragile. When they get this addressed and Seb' wins his first title, that would be the time to bring someone on who will give Sebastien a greater challenge. That may well be next season, it might be 2012.

As it is, whilst Mark can pull performances out like Spain and in the process make Seb' look ordinary on an off day, his seat looks safe.

Oh bollocks, I shouldn't be posting here, should I. Oh well, sorry.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Mark Webber.

An anomaly. Not your usual run of the mill driver. Not in todays F1 format where all the youngsters are filling the seats and driving for their young lives.

This isn't a debate about whether Mark is good enough to be in F1. The question is 'Does Mark Webber deserve a Red Bull'

The answer quite simply is why not?

Mark has the right mix of life experience and know how to show Vettel a thing or two. It seems to me that Vettel is being groomed for superstardom, MS style. If this is the case, Seb doesn't need an arrogant, non team player team mate. He needs support. He needs a man with a level head on his shoulders to give him the development space and opportunity. Mark has never been selfish. If he can share something, he will - to aid the team and his team mate.

Red Bull is a stop-gap for Vettel. Its a platform to the next team. The big guns. And rather than jumping in head first, he has opted to stay and learn. Who better than to help him mature and give him the support than Mark Webber.

Mark himself can be blisteringly quick. He's a qualifying king. He can get the car onto the front of the grid without blinking. What a way to showcase what a team is capable of. What a way to give Seb that little bit of extra momentum and belief. 'Well if he can do it, I can go better.'

I cant think of a better teammate to show the talent of Vettel other than Mark Webber. I can't think of a better man to showcase the Red Bull team other than Mark Webber. And I cant think of a more determined to push himself to the limit driver than Mark Webber.

Regardless of his age, which I believe to be 34 at the moment - if Michael can drive at the age of 43 and Rubens, Trulli (not sure) being older than Webber, that makes no difference. In F1 experience is needed. I still believe Vettel could benefit greatly from Mark. Not by the competitiveness of Kubica. Not by another couple of years yet. Mark has Indeed seen off drivers who are grand prix winners. He himself is also now. So, my closing sentence to my argument is YES. Mark deserves the Red Bull seat more than anyone.