Blue Flags... Keep Them Or Get Rid Of Them?

[wapi 4]

Toro Ross and Force India were never new teams....they morphed out of other old teams (Minardi and Jordan)....you can't use them to compare to the three truly new teams of this year, all of whom had less than 6-months to make the grid.

So what? They agreed to the rules of the game.

It is proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was mistake to allow them in 2010. FIA should admit new team 18 months in advance to the first race they can participate. In the mean time they can do as much testing as they wish. That is the only way to have half decent competition. Having cars which are 7sec of the pace is not desireable from many aspects.

[JHS 1]

Toro Ross and Force India were never new teams....they morphed out of other old teams (Minardi and Jordan)....you can't use them to compare to the three truly new teams of this year, all of whom had less than 6-months to make the grid.

Yes, but you get my point. Despite morphing out of existing teams, they were immediately competitive. If my memory serves me right, Force India used to prop up the rear of the grid a lot. In a way you could argue they were a new team, as they went through a period of reshuffling and there was a definite transition from old to new.

As such they were towards the back of the grid a lot. I never heard stories of them moaning about being lapped though, because, as Wapi says, it's part of the game. It has been for many years. If Virgin and Lotus don't like it, they are in the wrong race series.

I agree that the FIA made the wrong decisions when choosing new teams, but hey, it is what it is. We go forwards and not back, what is done is done. Whilst I think we should support and applaud their efforts for even getting on the grid in such difficult conditions, I simply don't agree with what Lotus and Virgin are saying here.

[blackpebel 0]

Errr.....it was to lap someone...his name was Riccardo Zonta....and had he pulled to the side, then Hakkinen would never have overtaken Schumacher....at the same time....

The concern for hakkinen at that time was not to overtake Zonta, because he could have done it with or with out schumacher being in between. Because on track, Zonta was somewhere around 1.7 light years slower then Hakkinen.

The Issue for Hakkinen was to overtake Schumacher who was fighting with him for a race lead. And you are right, had Zonta pulled over on time we would have never seen this maneuver. And that also means that Zonta played a roll in changing the actual ongoing course of the race by being the decisive factor in that overtaking maneuver, which exactly is being avoided by introducing blue flags.

[blackpebel 0]

The Hakkinen move on Schumacher around Zonta is just such a perfect example of how the chasing car uses lap traffic...it's not about worrying about passing the lap traffic, as you refer to, it's about managing the lap traffic to keep others behind, or to manage lap traffic to gain an advantage by placing your car in the right spot at the right time.

You have mentioned that you would like to see more skills from the lead drivers while overtaking or defending. So if they are to show good skills while defending or overtaking, why should they be using a back-marker to show good maneuver? They should be able to do it one on one.

See, its like this: You do see WWE don't you, ever seen how people not involved in the match just spring up from nowhere and try to screw up a wrestlers match in a one on one. If the referee see's it, he disqualifies whoever is getting an unfair advantage out of it, and the other competitor is awarded the match win. Its something like that.... Same way drivers are expected to overtake or defend on their own, and the ones getting involved are to be kept aside, because its unfair to someone.

If the blue flag rule in it's current guise wasn't there, then you would not see team mates follow each other, as we just had Webber follow Vettel at Suzuka...Webber would have used the traffic when Vettel was impeded to have a crack at him and pass. Then maybe he'd pass, maybe he wouldn't, but at least there would be some action at the front....and if he did get past, then it would be Vettels turn a few laps later to have a crack at Webber when they caught the next slower cars. That, my friend, is motorsport.

I personally think that vettle drove excellently throughout the week to claim victory. And if webber had to, he did get enough time behind vettle to be able to charge and overtake him on track, but he just was not able to, simple. you would have rather wanted a backmarker to screw up vettles race(who did the hard work both on saturday and sunday), and have it handed over to webber how never even made any good attempts to overtake vettle throughout the race.

even cars 1-sec off the qually pace get lapped in a race.

Good point, but a lap down is a lap down, you cant be a lap down and still claim to compete with the front runners after they are about to put you a lap down.

[jackgarrett 0]

Good point, but a lap down is a lap down, you cant be a lap down and still claim to compete with the front runners after they are about to put you a lap down.

1993 Japanese Grand Prix

Rookie and 1st grand prix Eddie Irvine got lap and ended up not lapped.

[HandyNZL 1]

Also in 1998 Hakkinen and Coulthard lapped EVERYONE in one race (think it was French GP???). So guess all teams should just p**s off and leave it to McLaren....

[Quiet One 15]

Keep'em. Field should be levelled upwards, not downwards. Top teams have the burden of delivering a good spectacle and fight for wins. Lower teams have the responsibility to match the top teams pace. If they can't then they should move aside or being replaced by the next Andrea Moda.

End of.

[Delta 0]

Also in 1998 Hakkinen and Coulthard lapped EVERYONE in one race (think it was French GP???). So guess all teams should just p**s off and leave it to McLaren....

First one, Australian GP. They had that clever extra break pedal, and they where 4s per lap faster than any other car on the circuit.

[JHS 1]

Also in 1998 Hakkinen and Coulthard lapped EVERYONE in one race (think it was French GP???). So guess all teams should just p**s off and leave it to McLaren....

Nope, because that was one race.

[cdnfan 0]

The option of 'choosing' to block a faster car is exactly what is excluded.

are there not already enough other rules about blocking? could they not be tightened up (think of Hamilton's weave to keep a Renault from trying to pass)? if there is "no passing" in current F1, how to explain the several passes Kobayashi made in Japan?

the (very) few NASCAR races i have watched bits of, they push other cars out of the way; sure, we don't want that in F1, but more attempts at passing would be nice.

over the last 8 or 10 years, the FIA kept changing rules to make the racing "better", and the teams with the best technology usually figured out how to get around the rule changes. Often in less than one season. If a significant portion of the "point" of F1 is technology innovation, with an aim to be the "best" racing "show", then let all drivers have to make passes. no free rides "because"

[blackpebel 0]

Firstly welcome to the forum cdnfan...

are there not already enough other rules about blocking? could they not be tightened up (think of Hamilton's weave to keep a Renault from trying to pass)? if there is "no passing" in current F1, how to explain the several passes Kobayashi made in Japan?

True, I Think that their has been an lot of improvement in terms of overtaking this year. Although bahrain seemed as if we would have to go through a boring season, It's been one of the best in this decade at least.

over the last 8 or 10 years, the FIA kept changing rules to make the racing "better", and the teams with the best technology usually figured out how to get around the rule changes. Often in less than one season. If a significant portion of the "point" of F1 is technology innovation, with an aim to be the "best" racing "show", then let all drivers have to make passes. no free rides "because"

Would racing with minnows prove to be an improvement in the show? I think not. Yes passing is needed. but at the top of the order and not the bottom. And drivers are expected to do the same without the help of a lapped car coming in between.

And FIA is trying to ensure that this happens by further cutting the budget of bigger F1 teams in coming years. Once that happens, everyone would have next to similar budget or cap to develop their machines.

Gradually this will improve the racing at the front of the grid rather then having fan's to think that blue flag's can prove to be a better option for the sport to witness more overtaking.

[HandyNZL 1]

Firstly welcome to the forum cdnfan...

True, I Think that their has been an lot of improvement in terms of overtaking this year. Although bahrain seemed as if we would have to go through a boring season, It's been one of the best in this decade at least.

Would racing with minnows prove to be an improvement in the show? I think not. Yes passing is needed. but at the top of the order and not the bottom. And drivers are expected to do the same without the help of a lapped car coming in between.

And FIA is trying to ensure that this happens by further cutting the budget of bigger F1 teams in coming years. Once that happens, everyone would have next to similar budget or cap to develop their machines.

Gradually this will improve the racing at the front of the grid rather then having fan's to think that blue flag's can prove to be a better option for the sport to witness more overtaking.

All teams have to start somewhere. What the three teams has done is credible, and they stand just as good a chance of being up the order next year, just as established teams stand just as good a chance of tailing the field. The three teams haven't developed their 2010 cars much at all since about Monaco FFS. They're working on 2011.

The bigger teams that have money, should be allowed to spend their money. It is theirs afterall. It's not always money that gets you up the grid (just look at Toyota and Honda as an example of how to waste money for no reward). It's about how you use your money. Some teams can operate extremely well on a low budget, and I for one (being an engineer and knowing the abilities of computer analysis these days) think Virgin is onto something with not spending millions on wind tunnels, and we should see a marked improvement from them next year.

You have to remember that the new teams have a huge deficit to make up....not just in terms of money, but also in terms of information from the tracks and a host of other things.

It's not about "if you can't keep up, **** off". If that were the case there would be no new teams, and the sport needed them, whether you like it or not. Watching 12 car grids as the pinnacle of motorsport would be a joke. What the new teams need now is something that is free for everyone....time.

[Fwon 0]

Quoting Bernie: "We need to get rid of a few of those cripples."

Exactly my sentiments. Who want to argue with Mr F1 now?

[maure 1]

Blue flag FIA and reverse the grid.

[dribbler 6]

Never quite understood why these racing driver folk get so upset about having to drive past slow cars. Why they need a piece of blue fabric to be franticly waved at their tortoise colleagues is beyond ridiculous. Smacks of superiority hang ups. Just drive around the stupid snail cars. Ditch the flags. More opportunites for position change by having to get past the Yamamotos et al.

Next, we'll have drivers who won't want to drive in the rain.

[maure 1]

Never quite understood why these racing driver folk get so upset about having to drive past slow cars. Why they need a piece of blue fabric to be franticly waved at their tortoise colleagues is beyond ridiculous. Smacks of superiority hang ups. Just drive around the stupid snail cars. Ditch the flags. More opportunites for position change by having to get past the Yamamotos et al.

Next, we'll have drivers who won't want to drive in the rain.

You've got a point.

Unfortunately, F1 is now in a state of shocked simulated sportsmanship. It's all bull, of course, but it is the Word... not the action, naturally. Everyone is cheating as hard as they can because that is what the master (FIA), the point of reference does.

And so, take out the blue flags and Ferrari (never McLaren, they are "honest") will have Massa drop down the order and when lapped take out whoever is ahead of Alonso.

Amusing to remember that, when Todt was teamboss, he had his drivers crash out rivals to favor his favorites... and, nope, not talking about testicles here... although, wait a minute!

[jackgarrett 0]

You've got a point.

And so, take out the blue flags and Ferrari (never McLaren, they are "honest") will have Massa drop down the order and when lapped take out whoever is ahead of Alonso.

Or Block, you forgot block, i'll add block.

[maure 1]

You, gentle soul... let it be "or block".

[KoolMonkey 0]

Never quite understood why these racing driver folk get so upset about having to drive past slow cars. Why they need a piece of blue fabric to be franticly waved at their tortoise colleagues is beyond ridiculous. Smacks of superiority hang ups. Just drive around the stupid snail cars. Ditch the flags. More opportunites for position change by having to get past the Yamamotos et al.

Next, we'll have drivers who won't want to drive in the rain.

Exactly. Someone in a vastly superior car, that has a higher top speed and handles better should not have a problem in being able to pass a slower car. They goes for all tracks they race on. Why a blue flag is needed is beyond me. In other forms of motor sport, a lot don't use blue flags and guess what, they have more passing than in F1.

And as far as not wanting to drive in the rain, I found it a bit comical at Korea how long the decision to start the race dragged on. Pathetic really when you saw folks standing outside with no umbrellas not getting wet. But oh no, Webber had to lead the charge in not wanting to race. For once I thought Hamilton was correct, let's race!

[maure 1]

You guys and the "passing" fix. The problem is the tracks not the cars.

Still, it is true that there is too much pvssy footing. The race didn't need to start behind the SC and/or that late. In the end, it just came through as another incompetent attempt (in the sense of _evident_) to manipulate race results.

[wapi 4]

Exactly. Someone in a vastly superior car, that has a higher top speed and handles better should not have a problem in being able to pass a slower car. They goes for all tracks they race on. Why a blue flag is needed is beyond me. In other forms of motor sport, a lot don't use blue flags and guess what, they have more passing than in F1.

And as far as not wanting to drive in the rain, I found it a bit comical at Korea how long the decision to start the race dragged on. Pathetic really when you saw folks standing outside with no umbrellas not getting wet. But oh no, Webber had to lead the charge in not wanting to race. For once I thought Hamilton was correct, let's race!

They said spray is the problem. That is easy to fix. It means extreme wet tyres are too efficient. Limit depth of indentations and it is fixed. Even better, ban extreme wets and leave only intermediates.

[Delta 0]

You guys and the "passing" fix. The problem is the tracks not the cars.

Still, it is true that there is too much pvssy footing. The race didn't need to start behind the SC and/or that late. In the end, it just came through as another incompetent attempt (in the sense of _evident_) to manipulate race results.

Just answer me this... If you are sure that Formula 1 is manipulated, why do you even watch it?

[maure 1]

Just answer me this... If you are sure that Formula 1 is manipulated, why do you even watch it?

The old question... again.

Since most of you think F1 is about "passings", why do you watch F1?

The answer to your question and mine is the same, namely, in the odd event that things go unscripted. In your case, the rare passing. In my case, the script coming apart in Whitings hands (the executor on the field) and his (to me, hilarious) desperation as he pushes and pushes the envelope of (his) sanity with his fixes...

Ultimately, I give F1 as much credit as any of you do... which is very, very little. As a competition, it is a joke and we all know it. But the driving... ahhh, if you are into motorsports, the actual racing (when it is allowed) matters. Sure, we have to put up with some teams allowed down-right illegal "advantages" and so on but, on racing day, who gives a fvck. Even when Whiting clumsily tries to fix this and that, it is no more than a sideway clown show. We all just wait for the racing to come back on.

Besides, if any of you _actually_ are into motorsport, you _must_ follow something other than F1. It is the surest way to figure out who is who around here. If F1 is your entire world, you might as well be watching daytime soap operas... to be sure, I bet there are more corrupt competitions than F1, I just don't know of any.

By the way, "Delta", do we know each other? I don't recognize your handle yet some of your comments were under-the-belt... you know, implying you've got an axe to grind or whatever ego nonsense.

[Quiet One 15]

1) About passing: I've been watching the first races of the season again. China in particular is relevant. Plenty of overtaking. Actually, real, memorable overtakings? Just a few: the Schumi vs Hamilton battle and a few others. Everything else was just a car moving alongside another car and coming up front. Nothing exciting about those. I'd rather watch a single Schumi vs Hamilton at China, or both Schumi vs Alonso battles at Imola in 2006 and 2005 (which, btw, did not actually ended in overtakings) than watching the other overhyped passes that Hamilton pulled through (or Alonso, who also made a lot of overtakings at China).

Wanting 30 overtakings per car per race and doing dumb things (like removing blue flags, thus allowing a hypothetical Ferrari powered HRT, for example, to ruin everybody else's race) would be like removing goalkeepers in football so we can watch more goals. It's not about quantity but quality. Give me 2 hard earned passes, and lots of tension in a race and keep your bunch of artifically induced overtakings.

2) About Korea: Short memories are bad. So, nobody found suspicious that 23 out of 24 drivers suddenly decided that a light drizzle was disastrous, even when (most) of those same 23 have raced in much more atrocious conditions for a good part of this year? (how many races with rain? including Suzuka jus a couple of weeks before!). James Allen made a good sum up about the drivers and their use of pit radio to lobby according their own interests, knowing that they will be aired in TV. That easily explains Webber's and Hamilton's attitudes towards the race. The remaining drivers, though, had little or nothing to win in either case so there's no need to explain that both of their . So, again: somebody explain me why Schumi, for example, or Senna weren't too keen to race? They all gave more or less the same view: it was not about the rain itself (duh), but about the spray and the fact that it is a NEW CIRCUIT. It means that the drivers arenot famniliar with braking zones, bumps, etc. And they can't even look for those if there's a fine spray blinding them completely (seriously, you guys were just watching the few drops falling in some puddle or any of you seriously watched the onboard cameras? It looked like a smoke screen).

Now, I am no expert but at least Spanish and English commentators made the point that a new track tends to "weep oil" from the tarmac. Taking that further ahead, with no wind around you get a surface covered by a layer of oily water, being aspersed by the cars into a fine spray. That spray does not get carried away as there is no wind, and the oil itself makes it some kind of sticky, yucky thing that would probably leave your visor unuseable in secons (this is a mere hypothesis, granted). In any case, a slippery and invisible track that no one is familiar about is not the track everybody would die to race on.

[maure 1]

You've got a point, Oh Quite One, even if unintended. It's all about politics. The drivers trying to influence (mislead, really) race direction (yes, I'm laughing) is proof of that. Everyone knows it is all bullsht.

The passing bit is lost on me, really. I don't see how you guys press on that point when F1 has become what has become. Besides which, there is a lot and far more interesting sht to it than passing. For instance, when you have two drivers on top of each other, lap after lap, it doesn't matter if there is a pass or not. As I know it, you've got two drivers on the _limit_ curve after curve, driving their little hearts out. I value that mastery above passing anytime.

I think most people don't realize how _HARD_ those guys drive. The TV does no justice whatsoever to what goes on track. I recommend anyone lost in the legerdemain to simply get themselves a drive/ride in whatever form of motorsport racing. That will give them a feeling of what really goes on during a race. Road warriors don't know the first thing about it...