Has Hamilton Become As Good As Alonso?

[AleHop 0]

I don't think it's a bright idea defending mediocrasy (defending alonso...) and I don't fear their kicks, I'm not a swindler (nor a coward, noway...), I don't cheat anyone and I know turbokick better (got a real good kick, believe me, finally I'm the TURBOkick, no?)...

Why? I love Alonso's mediocrity.

[JHS18 0]

Go on defending medoicracy (alonso), as I see you're a latin guy, tell me then what do you think of the way they put Massa's carreer in order to benefit alonso? The team orders are prohibited as far as I know, what do you think of: ¨Massa, alonso is faster than you, confirm you have received...¨

Things like that can change someones carreer...Too many harmed only to benefit a small, spanish, mediocre swindler...

Totally fine. Team orders are allowed these days after all, and on the basis there's more chance of me flying to the moon tomorrow than Felipe being World Champion this year, I see that there's no problem in the team helping Alonso's chances.

So yeah, you may want to check your facts. Team orders are now perfectly legal.

And you know, only recently there was talk that McLaren would start to use team orders to help Hamilton, but I guess you're fine with that?

[Massa 0]

Turbokick, check your private messages. You have been issued a "verbal" warning and I want you to read and understand it. Thank you.

[turbokick 0]

Why? I love Alonso's mediocrity.

...No comment...I'm not sure there's any sence to talk with you, only thing I will say is mediocrasy doesn't make a sport GRAND. Formula 1 is a grand sport, it's sad there are people like you adoring lack of talent and proffecionalism...

[turbokick 0]

Totally fine. Team orders are allowed these days after all, and on the basis there's more chance of me flying to the moon tomorrow than Felipe being World Champion this year, I see that there's no problem in the team helping Alonso's chances.

So yeah, you may want to check your facts. Team orders are now perfectly legal.

And you know, only recently there was talk that McLaren would start to use team orders to help Hamilton, but I guess you're fine with that?

Do you know what you're talking about?..I'm not sure.

[Massa 0]

Do you know what you're talking about?..I'm not sure.

The team orders ban was lifted for the 2011 season. They are legal.

http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/361048/FIA_lifts_team_orders_ban/

[turbokick 0]

...

[turbokick 0]

The team orders ban was lifted for the 2011 season. They are legal.

http://www.totalf1.c...eam_orders_ban/

They lifted them AFTER alonso's support from FIA, before that they were PROHIBITED and their ¨abolishment¨ were only to ¨justify¨ alonso and Ferrari.

[Massa 0]

I've just checked them, I have answered you and I'm sorry you didn't get what I wanted to say. Do you think you're the right person to address ¨verbal¨ warnings to anybody here? It seems you have nothing to do, which's not my fault...Find something to occupy guy.

I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl.

I don't like to over-step my duties. 99.99999999% of what I do is delete spam and ban spammers. It's very rare that I'll address a member. I just wanted to make sure we were clear on how to more appropriately express opinions. Thanks for your time.

[turbokick 0]

I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl.

I don't like to over-step my duties. 99.99999999% of what I do is delete spam and ban spammers. It's very rare that I'll address a member. I just wanted to make sure we were clear on how to more appropriately express opinions. Thanks for your time.

As you can see I have nothing against "some group of people" (would I defend Massa if I do?), I'm against lack of justice and tollerance of mediocracy that occure sometimes in modern F1...Regards.

[Quiet One 15]

Would I dare to reply?

Nahh...I love "mediocracy/medoicracy/mediocrasy" too much.

[pabloh20 1]

I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl.

I don't like to over-step my duties. 99.99999999% of what I do is delete spam and ban spammers. It's very rare that I'll address a member. I just wanted to make sure we were clear on how to more appropriately express opinions. Thanks for your time.

And a damn fine job you are doing, Sir.

[pabloh20 1]

Would I dare to reply?

Nahh...I love "mediocracy/medoicracy/mediocrasy" too much.

To be fair, we have always known this

[Quiet One 15]

To be fair, we have always known this

And that's why I love you , babe.

[pabloh20 1]

And that's why I love you , babe.

Aww you are so kind............................no wait

[Jean-Pierre 0]

Like Alonso, I guess I'm mediocre, but not as mediocre as him of course.

Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.

[Quiet One 15]

Like Alonso, I guess I'm mediocre, but not as mediocre as him of course.

Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.

Jean Pierre, Alonso is more mediocre than you. Please confirm you understood the message.

[Jean-Pierre 0]

Jean Pierre, Alonso is more mediocre than you. Please confirm you understood the message.

Done.

And he will show his mediocracy this week-end again, as Hamilton will.

[JHS18 0]

They lifted them AFTER alonso's support from FIA, before that they were PROHIBITED and their ¨abolishment¨ were only to ¨justify¨ alonso and Ferrari.

Whilst you are true that team orders were at one time banned, most people agree that rule was unworkable. Team orders happened on a regular basis, even if it wasn't as clear as "we want you to move out the way."

How do you define what a team order is anyway? Surely you could say a driver who gets an upgrade package before his team mate could be seen as a team order - that is favouring one of the drivers over the other one to improve their chances at winning the race and/or title.

Team orders are nothing new in motorsport, and I dare say you'd be pretty foolish to say that McLaren has NEVER used team orders since Hamilton entered the team. Just ask Heikki...

[Massa 0]

First off, thanks guys. Appreciated. It's easy to moderate a forum when the members offer such great contributions.

Now, to F1...

I understand Turbokick's point about team orders to a small extent, but I don't see how there was preferential treatment from the FIA. Ferrari were penalized for the incident. The penalty just wasn't harsh enough to stop them from doing it. I don't think that's conspiracy as much as the FIA having absolutely no real basis for how to enforce a team orders rule, hence they had let "secret" team orders go unpunished, and once there was something blatant, they were kind of uncomfortable penalizing it.

Likewise, I think the sympathy for Felipe Massa is a bit narrow. Did Hockenheim discourage Massa? Sure. But before you blame Ferrari for damaging Massa's career, remember who built it in the first place. Don't forget that Ferrari shifted their weight behind Massa at the very first sight of weakness in Räikkönen back in 2008. Räikkönen had won the 2007 title, and Massa had been his equal to start 2008. Once Räikkönen had a tough stretch, they immediately made Massa a championship contender (and Massa failed to deliver). So, while you can argue, as you do, that Hockenheim damaged Massa's career, 2008-2009 very nearly damaged Räikkönen's. It fueled tons of speculation about whether or not Räikkönen was committed or talented or cared or whatever it was. As soon as Massa was injured, Räikkönen became more competitive again (as competitive as the F2009 could have been). It definitely played a role, directly or indirectly, in Räikkönen leaving the sport for a little while, and it certainly hurt his reputation on Internet forums (which is what keeps him up at night, I'm sure).

Ferrari owed Massa nothing and they gave him arguably more than he earned. In doing so, they earned the right to take that all away. I can't see the Massa situation (a worse driver yielding to a consistently better one) being more "unfair" than the Räikkönen one, and I can't see either one being unfair at all because that's just the sport, that's just life. Someone has to lead for the best interest of the organization and whatever reasons Ferrari have to back whichever driver, you have to roll with that. The goal is the WCC, not the WDC, for every team. Massa can be bitter or frustrated or whatever he wants to be now. He'll watch his children grow up in a great situation created by the income Ferrari paid him and all those feelings will pass.

On top of all that, if anyone read this far, I can't see how Alonso is worse driver because he gets preferential treatment over his teammate. It takes a special driver to be able to get both the team to rally around you and to deliver on that treatment. Alonso does. Massa struggled with the latter.

[AleHop 0]

I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl.

You're Gary Cooper in High Noon against turbokick.

[freaky2 1]

So Ferrari are god now... not bad. Nah, kidding, I quite agree with what you're saying Eric. Of course, the connection between what Ferrari give and what they taketh away may not feel fair to their drivers, especially when the Scuderia make it their daily goal to be almost as inconsistent as the FIA. There's also the issue with Ferrari relying much more on their "lead driver" than on their second, when we compare with the other teams it feels unfair. But, as Andrés has said more than once, Massa has the chance to prove himself against Alonso, especially now that the car is bad, to steal his lead driver status, and get all the benefits. Since he hasn't done it, we must assume that either he likes being Alonso's second, or just can't help it, in any of those cases he has to yield to the team orders. Now that Ferrari have found a real leader they won't hesitate in order to win the title. When comparing Alonso with Massa as they are now, it seems a cheap price to pay. After all, they don't deny him the chance to fight with any other driver and make as many points as he can - he just hasn't done it. Now it's far too late to complain - Alonso's 'mediocracy' has won him the day. Felipe has to wait until next year, if he gets there.

[turbokick 0]

...

[Rainmaster 7]

Why thank you!

[Massa 0]

Do you have much success with that "sexy motherwhatever" line in real life, turbokick? It seems pretty smooth.