Kay 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2005 Well if you weight the points compared to all of their team mates over their whole career you know who comes out on top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kup 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2005 Well if you weight the points compared to all of their team mates over their whole career you know who comes out on top. Fact is: Team can have rent-a drivers (like TS, you know), and some teams are concentrated over 1 car two times more than over another car ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkejay 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2005 Indeed. I hate kimi too demonhorse and i 100% agree with your theories! I find it hard to believe that the mercades engines in KR's cars are worse than Montoya's and thus die easily!! Ben, there is nothing about a drivers' style that will cause the engine to fail. Each engine (within any given team) has a rev-limiter that will cut off at exactly the same place for both team mates. The reality is that no two engines are ever exactly the same, and therefore, they will never experience exactly the same lifetime. Engine failures are almost without exception due to failures in the manufacturing process of individual components, or in a problem with the construction of the engine itself, or sometimes due to faulty design. Recall the engine failure that Montoya had at Hockenheim with Williams a few years ago, when Ralph quite publicly suggested that the reason JPM's engine failed was becuase he overdrove it. Well, the telemetry showed that JPM had been on the throttle less than Ralph up to the point of his failure. So don't feel bad, sometimes even people who should know better also succumb to the temptation to blame the driver for a duff engine. In any event, what it all boils down to is that an engine failure is rarely, if ever, the fault of the driver, and you cannot therefore ascribe numerous engine failures throughout a season to the style of the driver.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demonhorse 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Ben, there is nothing about a drivers' style that will cause the engine to fail. Each engine (within any given team) has a rev-limiter that will cut off at exactly the same place for both team mates. The reality is that no two engines are ever exactly the same, and therefore, they will never experience exactly the same lifetime. Engine failures are almost without exception due to failures in the manufacturing process of individual components, or in a problem with the construction of the engine itself, or sometimes due to faulty design. Recall the engine failure that Montoya had at Hockenheim with Williams a few years ago, when Ralph quite publicly suggested that the reason JPM's engine failed was becuase he overdrove it. Well, the telemetry showed that JPM had been on the throttle less than Ralph up to the point of his failure. So don't feel bad, sometimes even people who should know better also succumb to the temptation to blame the driver for a duff engine. In any event, what it all boils down to is that an engine failure is rarely, if ever, the fault of the driver, and you cannot therefore ascribe numerous engine failures throughout a season to the style of the driver.... On that occasion that may be true, but how else would you explain that KR had so many more f****ps than JPM? Oh sure, he got every bloody duff engine, sure. NO ONE is that unlucky... not even JV in 2003, so I find this as unlikely as you think the engine breaking theory is. Also if Mercedes knew they were making a 'bad' engine, why didn't they make any changes whatsoever to make it more reliable? Sure, it's probably not 100% down to KRs driving, but he has to take at least PART of the blame... oh wait I forgot, his ego and that t**t Ron Dennis won't let him do that so they resort to self defacating propaganda that overhypes a driver who has yet to win a title after 3 years of trying. As has been said before it's exactly the same principle as somebody overdriving a road car engine, you keep those revs high for too long too often and the engine goes bang. I especially delight in watching boy racers round where I live doing this same thing, while that may be in Vauxhall Novas and not million dollar machines, the basic principle is the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 NO ONE is that unlucky... not even JV in 2003, refer to my post JV had about 6 different failures(engine,gearbox, electrical, you name it). you call it driver error........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demonhorse 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 refer to my post JV had about 6 different failures(engine,gearbox, electrical, you name it). you call it driver error........ Yes and I'm saying they can't ALL have been bad luck or bad car... Why don't you try READING the posts and taking off your blinkers. Maybe JV was driving beyond the limit of what was possible with THAT car (i.e in a different car it would have been different, but being a WC, I would have thought he'd be able to adapt his driving style)... Ever thought that might be a possibility? didn't think so with such a closed mind... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 100th race and he loses points due to bad luck - what a fitting way to sum up his racing career!! I can't seriously understand why Montoya would wait behind a safety car he knows he can overtake losing them both 20 or so seconds, unless he knew he was going to retire at that stage and wanted to disadvantage Button, but I don't see the logic behind that one. Very strange indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demonhorse 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 100th race and he loses points due to bad luck - what a fitting way to sum up his racing career!!I can't seriously understand why Montoya would wait behind a safety car he knows he can overtake losing them both 20 or so seconds, unless he knew he was going to retire at that stage and wanted to disadvantage Button, but I don't see the logic behind that one. Very strange indeed. Aren't you forgetting something... due to 'disadvantaging button', Montoya also put himself at a disadvantage, no logic in doing that deliberately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Aren't you forgetting something... due to 'disadvantaging button', Montoya also put himself at a disadvantage, no logic in doing that deliberately. Montoya is not renowned for being a thinker; hence his number of disqualifications and his propensity to be involved with on track incidents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Aren't you forgetting something... due to 'disadvantaging button', Montoya also put himself at a disadvantage, no logic in doing that deliberately. Read my post again, I said there was no logic in it "but I don't see the logic behind that one." Your point now? Montoya is not renowned for being a thinker; hence his number of disqualifications and his propensity to be involved with on track incidents. I think its more likely he knew his race was over and just didn't bother, rather than purposely doing anything, but he should have thought about Button being behind him, he cost Button 15-20 seconds and several racing positions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Button deserved to finish better. He was unlucky, not for the first time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ykickamoocow 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Button deserved to finish better. He was unlucky, not for the first time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 That annoyed me. DC was 6th and after the first safety car he was 8th and after the second safety car he was 12th. It just wasnt DC's race and the thing that annoyed me was that he had a great race with no mistakes but because of circumstances out of his control he went backwards. Indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Equally I would like to know what happened in the second pitstop, Webber entered the pits behind Rubens quite some way, but his pitstop time was the same as Alonso's and so he was not being slow, so there must have been an incident before the pitstop? Perhaps the locking of tyres or something? I'm annoyed ITV didn't show this, as they got an opinion of an incident no one was able to judge. Apparently other channels had no mention of this said incident, so maybe Nick was making a mountain out of a molehill, but I am not sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Button seemed p**sed about it too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 He actually doesn't - he doesn't mention it in his notes after the race, so clearly he was more wound up at the time and Nick thought it was more to it than there was, clear break down in communication. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 actually if you had watched just after the race then they spoke to jenson quickly he did mention mark doing summin or another! So watch it later and you shall hear it! JB's race was c##ked up by the safety cars as was DC's and they were in for much higher places! Just wasnt to be! Now we have to wait till 12th March to get started again! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MontoyaFan-HatesJenson 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 JB 'unlucky' as usual then :-P...no surprises really...same as always. Never mind, like the ressurection of Christ, I'm sure next year is 'his year' eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 actually if you had watched just after the race then they spoke to jenson quickly he did mention mark doing summin or another! So watch it later and you shall hear it! JB's race was c##ked up by the safety cars as was DC's and they were in for much higher places! Just wasnt to be! Now we have to wait till 12th March to get started again! Straight after the race again - yes I saw it and emotions were high - note he didn't say much he was more annoyed about the Montoya and SC incident. Later on he doesn't mention it at all, neither does DC who was behind Jenson. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenson_Rules 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 well im not sure then! From what i heard he was annoyed, maybe it was nothing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kay 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 I think it is quite a simple thing that happened... Button got annoyed at whatever happened and made it out to be much worse than it was because he was already frustrated about the first safety car incident. Goes on the radio and complains and Nick Fry gets a wiff of this. Nick Fry then goes loppy and complains because quite frankly he is too much up Button's arse to know any sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MontoyaFan-HatesJenson 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2005 Ahahahahahahaha, probably one of the truest posts I've ever seen! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
