kiko01 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 Some have a very short memory... Although i do agree KR, FA and MS are the best the fact is that last year almost anyone would have said JB was as good as Kimi and Fernando. The old reason to banish JB is that he hasn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ButtonGod 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 He's not in the class of Alonso, Kimi or Michael, who are the A-grade racers. I've seen his whole career, he's very good, but not in their league, hence he is B-grade. Besides, he had great machinery last year. 20 mill is way too much for someone who hasn't won a race yet for whatever reason, hence he has not proved he can win. I've seen his whole career too and he is improving all the time. Your reasons for him being a "B-grade racer" are not justified because when you look deeper into why he hasn't won a race, it isn't what it seems. Just like some people think Villeneuve wasn't beaten as convincingly by Button as the record shows. Yes, he had great machinery last season and if the Ferrari wasn't on the grid then Jenson would be a World Champion. Ferrari had an amazing car last season and sadly for BAR, this is the season they decided to release their best ever car. Oh boy! Can't anyone have a go at JB without their own driver being sniped at?!?! Sheesh. Anyways, in response to the above, You do know he was significantly helped by a. JV's dire reliability record, b. David Richards, c. JV was in his fifth year at BAR, and was shot mentally. Had he got JV on his game, I have every confidence the result would be different, much different I wasn't sniping at Villeneuve at all (I like him too), I was simply making a point that when people doubt his ability he always proves them wrong. He's a typical British Bulldog who performs even better when people are critising him... I am looking at the statistics. 2 poles, 0 wins, 0 fastest laps... Well its certainly better than any recent North American driver has managed in F1.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 I am looking at the statistics. 2 poles, 0 wins, 0 fastest laps... 0 fastest cars Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pumpdoc 2 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 Great drivers overcome bad cars to win races ala Senna.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 Great drivers overcome bad cars to win races ala Senna.......... Indeed, and they also find their way into top teams and, if not, build them ala Schumacher. No excuses, Button is a second-rate talent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 Great drivers overcome bad cars to win races ala Senna.......... True. But no one, with the exception of Gil de Ferran, is saying that Jenson is as talented as Senna. For that matter, in my opinion, no one is. What I am saying is that Jenson is probably the fourth best driver in F1 who has not had an opportunity to win and who has not had a car capable of winning (in the hands of a non-superhuman driver). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AutoRacer5 0 Report post Posted November 19, 2005 0 fastest cars Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ButtonGod 0 Report post Posted November 20, 2005 Why are we comparing Senna with Button? There is no comparison. Senna will never be bettered by any driver and there'll never be another driver like him. Like Senna (forum) said, Jenson is clearly at least the 4th best driver on the grid. People who write him off as a second rate driver are just silly as they have no hard facts to back this yet. We'll know more in the next few years but not yet. He had an opportunity to win, Hockenheim 2004 if it werent for the engine on the friday. Senna didnt have the fastest car in the lotus, yet he made it capable of winning with the opportunities. If his engine change happened on the Friday which cost him ten places on the grid, how is this an opportunity to win? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 20, 2005 Why are we comparing Senna with Button? There is no comparison.Senna will never be bettered by any driver and there'll never be another driver like him. Like Senna (forum) said, Jenson is clearly at least the 4th best driver on the grid. People who write him off as a second rate driver are just silly as they have no hard facts to back this yet. We'll know more in the next few years but not yet. If his engine change happened on the Friday which cost him ten places on the grid, how is this an opportunity to win? Exactly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AutoRacer5 0 Report post Posted November 20, 2005 If his engine change happened on the Friday which cost him ten places on the grid, how is this an opportunity to win? He would have started 2nd, as in much less time to make up to MS in the race. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 20, 2005 He would have started 2nd, as in much less time to make up to MS in the race. He didn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AutoRacer5 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 If he HAD started third he WOULD HAVE won. Kimi started last and won in the McLaren and won at Suzuka, and dont start on the whole McLaren had the fastest car bit. RB started 17th or 18th in the Ferrari at Hockenheim in 2000 but won. Quick edit: He was supposed to start third instead of second, my mistake, take it on the cheek there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webBAAR 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Like Senna (forum) said, Jenson is clearly at least the 4th best driver on the grid.People who write him off as a second rate driver are just silly as they have no hard facts to back this yet. We'll know more in the next few years but not yet. Seriously mate, how the **** can you say that? "Clearly" at least the 4th best driver on the grid? Say what? What about Trulli, Ralf, JPM, Heidfeld, Rubens, Fisichella - four of which have all won a Grand Prix. How is Button Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 If he HAD started third he WOULD HAVE won.Kimi started last and won in the McLaren and won at Suzuka, and dont start on the whole McLaren had the fastest car bit. RB started 17th or 18th in the Ferrari at Hockenheim in 2000 but won. Quick edit: He was supposed to start third instead of second, my mistake, take it on the cheek there. You're an idiot. Did you even watch hockenheim 2000? Rubens drove very well but it was by no means an ordinary race! The reason we cannot call jenson an a-grader yet is, as senna keeps saying, that he hasnt had the equipment or opportunities. When he does, I'm confident he'll use it to its best potential Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AutoRacer5 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 You're an idiot. Did you even watch hockenheim 2000? Rubens drove very well but it was by no means an ordinary race! The reason we cannot call jenson an a-grader yet is, as senna keeps saying, that he hasnt had the equipment or opportunities. When he does, I'm confident he'll use it to its best potential There is no such thing as an ordinary race. Senna didnt have the equipment at Lotus, yet he won with the car, Jenson should be able to do the same even though he doesnt have the fastest car out there. Call me an idiot now? pfft n00b. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Yes I do, cos you used rubbish examples - barrichello at germany 00 and kimi at japan 05. Kimi was driving the dominant car, and all kinds of things happened at germany, most notably a person on the track that caused safety car and everyone pitting and mayhem. As you've already been told, we're not comparing Senna to Button. Even I can admit Button will never match Senna's stature in the sport. Yes drivers win with the opportunities given, unfortunately button doesnt appear to have had any opportunities as yet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taku 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Why are we comparing Senna with Button? There is no comparison.Senna will never be bettered by any driver and there'll never be another driver like him. Like Senna (forum) said, Jenson is clearly at least the 4th best driver on the grid. People who write him off as a second rate driver are just silly as they have no hard facts to back this yet. in all fairness then you too don't have any hard facts to say that button is first rate. he had an opportunity to win at monaco but trulli outqualified him. trulli is a great qualifier but button is no slouch. and who said button is like a typical british bulldog? lmao!!!! that's the silliest analogy of button i've ever heard! no offence to the guy but when i look at him and think of hime i don't think bulldog that's for sure. he's more like a typical british boyband member! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 he's more like a typical british boyband member! They all look like that over there! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jem of the Shire 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 yep we're all good looking!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 yep we're all good looking!! Weedy, underfed, boy-bandish... That was more what I was thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 yep we're all good looking!! Too right Jemstride. I'd hardly describe JB as weedy. Does everyone in Canada wear clothes 10 sizes too big Dan? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Too right Jemstride. I'd hardly describe JB as weedy. Does everyone in Canada wear clothes 10 sizes too big Dan? PS. It is ridiculous that some people are seriously trying to compare Jenson Button, good as he undoubtedly is, to the incomparable Ayrton Senna. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ButtonGod 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Seriously mate, how the **** can you say that? "Clearly" at least the 4th best driver on the grid? Say what? What about Trulli, Ralf, JPM, Heidfeld, Rubens, Fisichella - four of which have all won a Grand Prix. How is Button Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bajo39 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Does everyone in Canada wear clothes 10 sizes too big Dan? It's more the people that are 10 sizes too big Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Senna 0 Report post Posted November 21, 2005 Jenson has already beat Trulli in the same car so he can be crossed off the list. Why you've put him there is beyond me.As for the rest, well they are all very inconsistant aren't they? In that list of drivers, I only consider Montoya and Rubens to be as good as Jenson if not better. Fisichella's 2 wins were very lucky and he always make better use of a poor car than a good one. Button has been consistant and drove well in a poor car this season. Lets not forget he beat the likes of Trulli, Fisi, Ralf, Heidfeld in an inferior car this season. I think he is clearly at least the 4th best driver on the grid taking the above into account. Thats my opinion, you don't have to like it. I haven't once said that Jenson is a A-Grade racer or that he isn't because we all simply don't know enough yet and won't know for at least a few more years. I have no hard facts to prove is he an A-Grade racer and you have no facts to say he is an second rate driver. The jury is still out on Button, do you not understand any of that? Get yourself some reading glasses, I am not trying to put Button in with Michael, Kimi or Alonso. Where I have I even said that? Don Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
