F1 Integrity (Team Orders)

[Wez 0]

Felipe Massa had a good opening stint to his race and was going progressively quicker. Even though Michael was setting the fastest lap times, Felipe would regularly put in the fastest first sector.

It's usual in F1 for drivers to go quicker and quicker as they reduce their fuel loads and head towards their first pit-stops.

Massa's pit-stop was on Lap 19 yet all of a sudden on Lap 17 he slowed from doing 1:25s to doing 1:26s and then a 1:27. Could it be that he was deliberately holding up Fernando Alonso behind him under instruction from his Ferrari team?

As we all know team orders are banned in F1. The ITV commentary pitcrew accused them of orchestrating a slow-down and to the outside observer this looked to be the case.

Given such a public accusation Ferrari should show ITV and race stewards the telemetry from Massa's car to disprove them. Let's have the answers shown in the next GP programme.

If it was a case of Massa trying to hold Alonso up then one of two things should happen, either;

a ) They should scrap the team orders law and let everyone do it

b ) They should penalise both Ferraris 25 seconds.

It seems bizarre that stewards would investigate the race accident of Ide and Albers which had no consequence on the race result or the championship and - if ITV are right - let this go.

"From Planet f1"

I couldn't agree more!

[ykickamoocow 0]

I hate team orders with a passion. I brought this up in another thread the other day. What Ferrari did at Imola was no different than if one driver let the other past.

(Im bringing him up again) DC would have a couple more wins if it wasnt for team orders.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Yes, I believe Massa was holding up Alonso. But I thought that when team orders were banned, that meant not moving over to let your team-mate gain a place, like ferrari did in austria 02. It would be extremely difficult to punish a driver for holding someone up cos you cant prove it - Massa and Ferrari would just say they had some kind of problem, and I dont think holding up the opposition is banned, I dont think allen and brundle even mentioned it

[ykickamoocow 0]

I dont think allen and brundle even mentioned it

They said that it looked like Massa had been told to hold up Alonso but they didnt say it was against the rules.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I dont believe it was against the rules. It would be almost impossible to police something like that, stewards would have to examine every drivers lap times every lap it would be stupid!

[pumpdoc 2]

To ****ing bad, that's racing....................

[Ctrl300 0]

Holding someone up is part of F1 (although I hate it) and it has nothing to do with team orders when a team has a first and a second driver. I feel ferrari did what they had to do, and I am sure we will see the tables turned in future races and seasons. If I am not wrong Fisi did the same last year, and he will probably do it again if it can help FA to win another title. The only problem for Massa is that it probably cost him a third place.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Given such a public accusation Ferrari should show ITV and race stewards the telemetry from Massa's car to disprove them. Let's have the answers shown in the next GP programme.

If it was a case of Massa trying to hold Alonso up then one of two things should happen, either;

a ) They should scrap the team orders law and let everyone do it

b ) They should penalise both Ferraris 25 seconds.

It seems bizarre that stewards would investigate the race accident of Ide and Albers which had no consequence on the race result or the championship and - if ITV are right - let this go.

planet f1 always makes such ludicrous articles! those punishments would be way too harsh and FIA are not going to examine telemetry, the FIA are probably happy that a renault got beaten for once.

The stewards examined the ide/albers incident to see if Ide needs to be punished, cos we cant have drivers ramming into the side of others like Ide did

[cavallino 2]

Ok let me dig up my threads and kill this bulls##t right here, planetf1 is the F1 equivalent of The Bild, The Sun, or The Daily Telegraph etc dpending on where you live. Its tabloid bulls##t.

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3924&hl=

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4089&hl=

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3945&hl=

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3904&hl=

The next one is particularly enlightening

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3856&hl=

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3839&hl=

http://www.totalf1.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3069&hl=

[Jem of the Shire 0]

agreed cavallino. I wonder what anus wrote this tripe (the article at the top of this discussion), someone who loves alonso no doubt, and who also doesn't know the rules of F1

[pumpdoc 2]

agreed cavallino. I wonder what anus wrote this tripe (the article at the top of this discussion), someone who loves alonso no doubt, and who also doesn't know the rules of F1

Settled....................

[narain fan 0]

rubbish ,massa was racing...Fa should have overtaken him ...if he could ,if he couldnt thats his problem..

[Ctrl300 0]

Agree. If it was Suzuka Massa would have been eaten alive driving like that, but hey, it was San Marino...

[cavallino 2]

Agree. If it was Suzuka Massa would have been eaten alive driving like that, but hey, it was San Marino...

Ah yes the voice of reason emerges to say something so deeply profound it doesn't make any sense.

[Autumnpuma 0]

The only interesting part to this is that it gives an indication where Ferrari's head is at concerning MS. They started out the season with both drivers being equal, when they thought Kimi may go there. Now that MS is looking more and more like he's staying for 1-2 more years, Ferrari is back to having the 2nd driver slow up the competition.

As for penalties, well, I'm against most regulations/penalties on the racing. Whatever goes on from green to checkered flag is racing.

Edit: Ctrl300 made sense "Agree. If it was Suzuka Massa would have been eaten alive driving like that, but hey, it was San Marino..."

This was in response to the suggestion that Alonso should have overtaken Massa. Ctrl300 made the point that at Suzuka, where it's easier to pass than Imola, Alonso would have passed Massa.

[cavallino 2]

Why the bloody hell is everyone implicitly believing that Massa slowed down deliberately, surely its strange that when they could have let MS through to actually gain a point they did not, and then they will force him to slow for 5 laps so that it 'might'help Michael. When otherteams did it last year and admitted to it, it barely got a mention, when Ferrari denies doing it people just ignore it.

[Jean Todt 4]

Holding someone up is part of F1 (although I hate it) and it has nothing to do with team orders when a team has a first and a second driver. I feel ferrari did what they had to do, and I am sure we will see the tables turned in future races and seasons. If I am not wrong Fisi did the same last year, and he will probably do it again if it can help FA to win another title. The only problem for Massa is that it probably cost him a third place.

during chinese gp right?

[Autumnpuma 0]

Why the bloody hell is everyone implicitly believing that Massa slowed down deliberately...

It's well-known that Ferrari have done this in the past, specifically with Rubens, so it seems a likely explanation. As a strategy, it's pretty effective and I'm sure other teams also have, and continue to, practice it. I don't have a problem with the strategy. I don't really respect the racer (Massa, Rubens, etc.) who chooses to go along with it, though. Better to race for all you're worth and if the team fires you, they fire you.

There's a good Imola race report I posted in F1 Discussions that elaborates further on this if you want to hunt for it.

[narain fan 0]

It's well-known that Ferrari have done this in the past, specifically with Rubens, so it seems a likely explanation. As a strategy, it's pretty effective and I'm sure other teams also have, and continue to, practice it.

There's a good Imola race report I posted in F1 Discussions that elaborates further on this if you want to hunt for it.

all u have to do at imola ,to protect ur position is to be defensive in a fe w corners.....

so it was not a very difficult job that massa had to do...

[Autumnpuma 0]

all u have to do at imola ,to protect ur position is to be defensive in a fe w corners.....

so it was not a very difficult job that massa had to do...

Actually, Massa was holding Alonso up to give MS more of a 'cushion' when he (MS) pitted (or so the theory goes). But you are correct on how to defend your position in Imola...

from grandprix.com-Race Report, Imola:

"Once Button disappeared Massa seemed to slow down and for three important laps Schumacher pulled away and Alonso lost time behind Massa. The gain was about three seconds but at Imola that sort of figure can be the difference between victory and defeat. Then Massa pulled off and went into the pits and suddenly Alonso was a second a lap faster. Michael pitted next and so Alonso had the road to himself for five laps before he pitted. When he rejoined Massa was not a problem any longer. His lost time now hurt him."

[F1 FANatic 1]

its like in soccer, the midfeilder who passes the ball to the striker and then holds up the other teams defender is helping the team, he knows hes not going to get the recognition for scoring the goal but he knows he helped the team win. and in the end, even the midfeilder scores once or twice

[nojvnof1 0]

I don't really respect the racer (Massa, Rubens, etc.) who chooses to go along with it, though.

Hear Hear!

[cavallino 2]

Actually, Massa was holding Alonso up to give MS more of a 'cushion' when he (MS) pitted (or so the theory goes). But you are correct on how to defend your position in Imola...

from grandprix.com-Race Report, Imola:

"Once Button disappeared Massa seemed to slow down and for three important laps Schumacher pulled away and Alonso lost time behind Massa. The gain was about three seconds but at Imola that sort of figure can be the difference between victory and defeat. Then Massa pulled off and went into the pits and suddenly Alonso was a second a lap faster. Michael pitted next and so Alonso had the road to himself for five laps before he pitted. When he rejoined Massa was not a problem any longer. His lost time now hurt him."

Innocent until proven guilty - since there is alternative viable explanation, you have to provide some kind of proof, innumerable articles from biased sites don't help, they're merely opinions based on the same information we have.

[goferrarigo 0]

Innocent until proven guilty - since there is alternative viable explanation, you have to provide some kind of proof, innumerable articles from biased sites don't help, they're merely opinions based on the same information we have.

i totally agree with you innocent untul proven guitly

[Autumnpuma 0]

Innocent until proven guilty - since there is alternative viable explanation, you have to provide some kind of proof, innumerable articles from biased sites don't help, they're merely opinions based on the same information we have.

Friend, you haven't been watching F1 long enough to see the patterns. I suggest you gain 10 more years experience then come back and re-post this.