Kimi Or Fernando, Your Choice

[Shane2 0]

Well if thats the case, maybe you should judge them on what they have achieved?

Yes i have seen the clip in his sig and it proves what? that Villeneuve and Arnoux had a close battle. Yes modern F1 has less overtaking, but it can still be exciting. Yes you are entitled to your opnion, and i am entitled to mine, and if you really think wet wins are a way to judge drivers, then fine think as you will. I am just pointing out that he has 2 world championships, and no driver can win 2 WDC's and be a poor driver, whether they have won in the wet or not that is what i am trying to say.

The main difference is that i actually do think what i post, i don't just post derisory nonsense about anyone that dares to beat my man on the track, i really do feel that Ferrari and Schumacher ruined the sport as a spectacle, and given his track record with attempting to cheat i personally feel my position is justified, and i feel there is a big difference between saying someone is a cheat for parking their car and blocking other people's laps and between saying someone tried to cheat by running into a tyre and hitting a wall at about 150 MPH.

And yes, i will admit Alonso is my favourite driver but i also enjoy F1 as a spectacle. Schumacher is the only driver i dislike, and i disliked him long before Alonso came into the sport, and i am not a Fanboy of anyone, because i don't go off crying like a baby and finding stupid ways to slag off anyone that beats Alonso on the track, which is something i feel Ferrari fans do, and did at every opportunity to Alonso.

And to be fair a lot of the stuff they post about Alonso on here is total BS and i feel it is not unfair to defend him, and i would do the same thing if they posted this BS about any of the other drivers as well. Massa drove for Ferrari and i got nothing against him at all so i think that kinda proves my point that i am not a fanboy of any 1 driver, if i was surely i would hate all his competition right?

[cavallino 2]

Alonso complained of Understeer. He did not ask the team to only replace 1 set of tires.

Alonso asked the team to replace a perfectly good set of tyres - his mistake.

[pabloh20 1]

Well if thats the case, maybe you should judge them on what they have achieved?

If I did that, what would it prove exactly? For example, how do you rate Stirling Moss with that sort of criteria? How would you rate David Coulthard, for example, within the confines of your criteria. If I only judged drivers by what they have achieved then where would that leave me? And then what do we class as achievements - winning wdcs, winning races, pole positions, fastest laps? If I only did that, then I would not look beyond Schumi would I? Or is an achievement being classed as the most sporting driver in F1. Seriously, I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Yes i have seen the clip in his sig and it proves what? that Villeneuve and Arnoux had a close battle. Yes modern F1 has less overtaking, but it can still be exciting. Yes you are entitled to your opnion, and i am entitled to mine, and if you really think wet wins are a way to judge drivers, then fine think as you will. I am just pointing out that he has 2 world championships, and no driver can win 2 WDC's and be a poor driver, whether they have won in the wet or not that is what i am trying to say.

If you can watch that clip and not yearn for F1 to be like that again, then I have a competely different mind set to you. Occasionally F1 these days can be exciting, but nowhere near as often as it should be.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, however you seem to have taken issue with mine for reasons I can't actually fathom - the only thing I can come up with is that you didn't read my original post properly. Sorry if that seems harsh, but it's the only thing I can think of.

Please re-read my original post that started this discussion and then read it again. I never said Kimi or Alonso were poor drivers, the opposite in fact. If you can't see that from my post, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you.

The main difference is that i actually do think what i post, i don't just post derisory nonsense about anyone that dares to beat my man on the track, i really do feel that Ferrari and Schumacher ruined the sport as a spectacle, and given his track record with attempting to cheat i personally feel my position is justified, and i feel there is a big difference between saying someone is a cheat for parking their car and blocking other people's laps and between saying someone tried to cheat by running into a tyre and hitting a wall at about 150 MPH.

And yes, i will admit Alonso is my favourite driver but i also enjoy F1 as a spectacle. Schumacher is the only driver i dislike, and i disliked him long before Alonso came into the sport, and i am not a Fanboy of anyone, because i don't go off crying like a baby and finding stupid ways to slag off anyone that beats Alonso on the track, which is something i feel Ferrari fans do, and did at every opportunity to Alonso.

And to be fair a lot of the stuff they post about Alonso on here is total BS and i feel it is not unfair to defend him, and i would do the same thing if they posted this BS about any of the other drivers as well. Massa drove for Ferrari and i got nothing against him at all so i think that kinda proves my point that i am not a fanboy of any 1 driver, if i was surely i would hate all his competition right?

If you you can look at what you posted in the motogp thread and not call it derisory nonsense, then fine, however, I have a different view on it. If you feel that any of my posts fall into the category you're talking about, then please feel free to show me.

[Shane2 0]

Stirling Moss, i don't really know much about. I feel coulthard is actually a very underrated driver and he did a very good job for McLaren. I never said being classed as most sporting was an achievement, i merely said that i thought Schumacher ruined F1 as a spectical.

Yes i would like more overtaking in F1, and i feel that developments like the CDG wing will bring it a bit closer again.

If i misread your post i am sorry. I never said you accused them of being bad drivers, i just find it a bit hard that you cannot see that Fernando is a talented driver just because he has not won a race in the wet yet, it really is that simple.

I never tried to say any of your posts fell into that category, and no my post is not derisory nonsense because if you actually look at the record books there have been cases of Ferrari doing precisely what i have accused them of doing (look at 2003 for example when they moaned about the Michelin tyres and got them banned), and i feel that Schumacher is dishonest and cheap, and that has been shown as well by Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06. The point of the matter is that there is still a huge difference between simply saying "Oh alonso is crap, oh Alonso is this and that, or Oh alonso tried to cheat by running into a tyre at 150 MPH" to actual cases, where it is almost beyond doubt that Micheal cheated.

The fact i have even less respect for Michael is that he then, especially at Monaco, had the bareface cheek to lie to all the drivers, the fans, and the teams and actually try and pass his action off as a mistake when it was almost certainly not. The fact the stuards examined his car and found that he was guilty in my opinion strengthens my Argument. If that is derisory nonsense, then i am guilty as charged, along with the FIA's stuards, every other F1 team and driver bar ferrari and their drivers, and almost every fan except Ferrari/Schumacher fans. Even the greats like Jackie Stuart condemned him for it, not to mention Martin Brundle, so i guess we are all guilty of this "Derisory Nonsense"

If you can find something that proves Schumacher innocent of Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06 i would happily recind my statements, but until you do i will happily continue to believe my "Derisory Nonsense" and you are welcome to flame me to your hearts content for believing it

[pabloh20 1]

Ok, let's start again, shall we - here's what I said :-

In my opinion, Alonso & Kimi are 2 obviously good racing drivers, but I still have to reserve judgement on them.

My main problem with Alonso is that for whatever reason he hasn't won a race in the wet. My main problem with Kimi is that again for whatever reason, he still seems to make a few too many driving mistakes. There may be perfectly good reasons for both of these things, but in my mind sometime in the future both have got to rectify them.

You might not agree with them, the general populous may not agree with them, but they are my opinions. However, you responded with this :-

I can give you the reasons why Alonso has never won a race in the wet:

Belgium 2004: Mechanical Failure (team error)

Belgium 2005: McLaren had the car advantage and everybody knows it

Hungary 2006: Wheel nut fell off when he had a comfortable lead, and would have won easily (team error)

China 2006: Was on the wrong tires, again team error.

I think he has proven twice this year that he would easily have had the speed and skill to win in the wet. And lets not kid ourselves, Michael was not exactly mistake free, now was he:

Britain 94: Passed hill on the formation lap, and refused to come in when he was shown the black flag

Adeliade 94: went off and stuffed it into the barrier (making amends by deliberately taking hill out)

Monaco 97: went straight on at sandevot and was lucky enough to continue without losing his lead

Hungary 98: Went off at the last corner and was again lucky not to stuff it in the barrier and lose his lead

Belgium 98: Rammed coulthard when attempting to lap him

Indie 2002: Gave the race win to barrichello attempting to stage a formation finish

China 2005: Span out from behind the safety car

Australia 2006: Went wide at turn 9 and pitched himself into the wall

Hungary 2006: Broke his suspension attempting to defend too hard to heidfeld

The only difference between Kimi and Michael was that Michael often had the luck of getting away with his mistakes

Fair enough, if you think these are reasons for not winning in the wet, that's fine. However, things like 'mclaren had the car advantage and everybody knows it', just doesn't work for me, sorry.

You then proceeded to start going on about Schumi - how was this relevant to anything I said or what we were discussing? Why was there any need whatsoever to bring Schumi into this?

However, it's just my opinion - I just feel that he has to prove himself in the wet as well as the dry before I can wholeheartedly say he is a truly great driver.

Why would you think I was drawing comparisions with Schumacher? I am judging Kimi purely on Kimi and what I perceive him to be capable of.

Here is another 1 of my comments - is there anything in this which makes you think I don't see Alonso as a talented driver, or indeed kimi?

Stirling Moss, i don't really know much about. I feel coulthard is actually a very underrated driver and he did a very good job for McLaren. I never said being classed as most sporting was an achievement, i merely said that i thought Schumacher ruined F1 as a spectical.

You feel Coulthard is underrated? So do I, to some extent. However, by your criteria I would have to dismiss him because he hasn't won a wdc, or only give him a little bit of respect because he has only won 13 races, I think, in 11 full seasons, or whatever his stats are. I just don't see achievements as being the only way to judge a driver.

That wasn't my point when I said about is being the most sporting an achievement, I was merely questioning what do we class as an achievement, because different people will have different views.

If i misread your post i am sorry. I never said you accused them of being bad drivers, i just find it a bit hard that you cannot see that Fernando is a talented driver just because he has not won a race in the wet yet, it really is that simple.

It's not that simple, really, because I never said any such thing. I can see Alonso as a talented driver, but for me personally, I cannot class him as a truly great driver until he has won in the wet and if I'm being honest, I want him to really impress me in the wet, so not just a single race. This doesn't mean that I don't think he can win in the wet, just that he hasn't yet and I want him to.

I never tried to say any of your posts fell into that category, and no my post is not derisory nonsense because if you actually look at the record books there have been cases of Ferrari doing precisely what i have accused them of doing (look at 2003 for example when they moaned about the Michelin tyres and got them banned), and i feel that Schumacher is dishonest and cheap, and that has been shown as well by Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06. The point of the matter is that there is still a huge difference between simply saying "Oh alonso is crap, oh Alonso is this and that, or Oh alonso tried to cheat by running into a tyre at 150 MPH" to actual cases, where it is almost beyond doubt that Micheal cheated.

Your post that I was referring to as derisory nonsense was this - I said I wish F1 was more exciting and you responded with 'It will be now that Schumacher is out of the c#ckpit and the FIA have nobody else to bend the rules for.' I think what you said is derisory nonsense, especially in the context of what I said.

The fact i have even less respect for Michael is that he then, especially at Monaco, had the bareface cheek to lie to all the drivers, the fans, and the teams and actually try and pass his action off as a mistake when it was almost certainly not. The fact the stuards examined his car and found that he was guilty in my opinion strengthens my Argument. If that is derisory nonsense, then i am guilty as charged, along with the FIA's stuards, every other F1 team and driver bar ferrari and their drivers, and almost every fan except Ferrari/Schumacher fans. Even the greats like Jackie Stuart condemned him for it, not to mention Martin Brundle, so i guess we are all guilty of this "Derisory Nonsense"

If you can find something that proves Schumacher innocent of Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06 i would happily recind my statements, but until you do i will happily continue to believe my "Derisory Nonsense" and you are welcome to flame me to your hearts content for believing it

I pointed you to the post earlier that I thought was derisory nonsense and yet you just completely ignored it, seemingly as an excuse just to carry on about Schumacher, by the looks of it.

How about this for proving Schumacher innocent of 94 - The fact the stuards examined his car and found that he was guilty in my opinion strengthens my Argument. So the fact that he was not charged for 94 would therefore weaken your argument then?

However, it's certainly not what I believe, but you seem to put a lot of trust in the stewards - I would be careful with this as it will not sit well with other comments you have made with regards to penalties handed out this year.

[monza gorilla 1]

Somewhere in this thread (and others) there is a dog with a bone. Nice posting, by the way, Pablo.

[pabloh20 1]

Somewhere in this thread (and others) there is a dog with a bone. Nice posting, by the way, Pablo.

Cheers, MG - I am not going completely mad am I? I mean my opinions of Alonso & Kimi are particular to me, but I've not said much else in this thread that's too outrageous have I?

[monza gorilla 1]

No sir. You are not going mad, and your posts have been entirely reasonable. Nothing in there to warrant the strange replies you've been getting, at any rate.

edit: where's everybody gone?

[Shane2 0]

*Claps*

Believe what you want i frankly don't give a toss, i am within my rights to make my own mind up my mind as to what penalties are fair and unfair, and you disagree? so what?

Alonso/Schumacher in Hungary: Both Fair

Schumacher in Monaco: Fair

JV Penalty: cannot comment i havent seen it

Alonso in Italy: Unjustified

I am not biased towards 1 driver, i just happen to think the Monza penalty was increadibly harsh. If you choose not to believe anything dodgy went on: fine, up to you. I do. If thats Derisory nonsense, then sue me

If disliking Schumacher for the way he drove and thinking of him as anti-competitionary is derisory, then, again: Sue me

Do i really care? No

If you really think Alonso cannot be clased as a great driver because he has not yet won a wet race, fine, thats up to you. I personally think that is a Poor method of judgement, but thats my opinion, and the shocking reality is that your opinion is no more factual than mine is.

I never actually said that someone is talented just on the base of how many WDC's they have won, i have just saying its very hard to win one without any talent. I feel 500 points in a career is a very good achievement, and commendable seeing as David never has won a WDC. And yes maybe i do put a lot of trust in the stuards, because the 1 time in the season they got it wrong was at Monza, and i do not blame them for that on the simple premise that i believed, and still do believe that the FIA had more than a little involvement with that penalty, regardless of what people like you call me.

And now who is the one that is not reading posts properly? I never once said that he was proven guilty of 94 i said he was proven guilty of Monaco 06, you clearly attempted to twist a part of my post to make me look stupid. Here is the line of text again in case you are under any further delusions as to what i was Actually trying to say

The fact i have even less respect for Michael is that he then, especially at Monaco, had the bareface cheek to lie to all the drivers, the fans, and the teams and actually try and pass his action off as a mistake when it was almost certainly not. The fact the stuards examined his car and found that he was guilty in my opinion strengthens my Argument.

Oops?#

And as for Adelaide '94 there is no doubt in my opinion that he took Hill out on purpose. For some reason Williams chose not to appeal. I don't fully know why, you will only know that by asking Williams themselves, but after losing Ayrton eariler that season i don't really think they felt like dragging it through a court of appeal. The fact schumacher attempted an almost identical move at Jerez 97 just showed that it was not a freak occurance.

[dribbler 6]

where's everybody gone?

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

z

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

z

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Just like being a fly on the wall at the moment Russ. That and them darn Morris Minors don't fix themselves...

Is there anyone out there who thinks Michael couldn't drive a pedal car but actually likes him? Most either hate him but think he can steer well or just think he's a cheat with a personality complex. I thought the dude wasn't too bad. Personally, i don't care much for Alonso; he's a little too moody for me. I can't see me and him ever discussing power to weight ratios over a pint of Guinness. I would have to say though that he's pretty handy behind a wheel. Hasn't the just won something twice or something? Can't remeber now, all seems such a long time ago. Michael probably feels the same. Can't see him losing too much sleep over petulant comments about the rights and wrongs of YET AGAIN (all together now, and to the tune of the 'Hokey Cokey'),

You slam him for Adelaide '94,

Adelaide '94,

Yawn yawn, yawn yawn

Slam Michael some more,

You bandwagon comments and you turn around,

That's what it's all about.

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Beat Hill, one point,

Ra! ra! ra!

There's Jerez '97,

Jerez '97,

Banged Jacques, banged Jacques,

He's a naughty devil,

You bandwagon comments and you turn around,

That's what it's all about.

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

You lost, he won,

B.A.R! B.A.R! B.A.R!

At Monaco '06,

Monaco '06,

Hot lap, Rascasse,

Accused of dirty tricks,

You bandwagon comments and you turn around

That's what it's all about.

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Start last, finish fifth,

Ha! ha! ha!

But Brazil '06

Brazil '06,

Still The Daddy, a driving lesson

To all them little pricks,

91 victories then you turned around,

THAT'S what it's all about.

(One more time, come one! EVERYBODY!!)

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Oh, Mikey Mikey Mikey,

Still the best by,

Far! far! far!

Oh, Welcome BTW Shane2. We haven't crossed paths yet.

[pabloh20 1]

If you can find something that proves Schumacher innocent of Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06 i would happily recind my statements, but until you do i will happily continue to believe my "Derisory Nonsense" and you are welcome to flame me to your hearts content for believing it

Well, here's what I was referring to actually. So how was I not reading that properly? Ooops, indeed.

*Claps*

Believe what you want i frankly don't give a toss, i am within my rights to make my own mind up my mind as to what penalties are fair and unfair, and you disagree? so what?

Alonso/Schumacher in Hungary: Both Fair

Schumacher in Monaco: Fair

JV Penalty: cannot comment i havent seen it

Alonso in Italy: Unjustified

I am not biased towards 1 driver, i just happen to think the Monza penalty was increadibly harsh. If you choose not to believe anything dodgy went on: fine, up to you. I do. If thats Derisory nonsense, then sue me

If disliking Schumacher for the way he drove and thinking of him as anti-competitionary is derisory, then, again: Sue me

Do i really care? No

If you really think Alonso cannot be clased as a great driver because he has not yet won a wet race, fine, thats up to you. I personally think that is a Poor method of judgement, but thats my opinion, and the shocking reality is that your opinion is no more factual than mine is.

I never actually said that someone is talented just on the base of how many WDC's they have won, i have just saying its very hard to win one without any talent. I feel 500 points in a career is a very good achievement, and commendable seeing as David never has won a WDC. And yes maybe i do put a lot of trust in the stuards, because the 1 time in the season they got it wrong was at Monza, and i do not blame them for that on the simple premise that i believed, and still do believe that the FIA had more than a little involvement with that penalty, regardless of what people like you call me.

And now who is the one that is not reading posts properly? I never once said that he was proven guilty of 94 i said he was proven guilty of Monaco 06, you clearly attempted to twist a part of my post to make me look stupid. Here is the line of text again in case you are under any further delusions as to what i was Actually trying to say

Oops?#

And as for Adelaide '94 there is no doubt in my opinion that he took Hill out on purpose. For some reason Williams chose not to appeal. I don't fully know why, you will only know that by asking Williams themselves, but after losing Ayrton eariler that season i don't really think they felt like dragging it through a court of appeal. The fact schumacher attempted an almost identical move at Jerez 97 just showed that it was not a freak occurance.

I can only presume you have either not read my posts or have not understood them. I have tried to be as reasonable and as clear as possible, but I guess it's just not working.

[Shane2 0]

I read your posts perfectly well, and it is clear to me you are trying to discredit me for believing what i do, despite the fact that on the whole you have nothing to prove what i am saying is false (apart from the FIA fixing the championship, i accept thats a debatable issue)

[dribbler 6]

You know (and i'm going to whisper this) i think Michael was guilty at Adelaide. I think he was guilty at Jerez. I think he was guilty at Monaco.

I think he was guilty of other things too.

But i will not have it said that he is a human being. Those creatures make mistakes, have feelings and emotions and sometimes feel so passionate about things that they do things beyond their own control due to something called 'personality traits', apparently.

Michael is clearly an android.

[Shane2 0]

thanks that one gave me a much needed giggle

[dribbler 6]

thanks that one gave me a much needed giggle

Have you not read my post 160 yet?

[pabloh20 1]

I read your posts perfectly well, and it is clear to me you are trying to discredit me for believing what i do, despite the fact that on the whole you have nothing to prove what i am saying is false (apart from the FIA fixing the championship, i accept thats a debatable issue)

When, where & how in any way, shape or form, have I tried to discredit you? Maybe you should look at your own responses to me, before you make that sort of judgement.

You know (and i'm going to whisper this) i think Michael was guilty at Adelaide. I think he was guilty at Jerez. I think he was guilty at Monaco.

I think he was guilty of other things too.

But i will not have it said that he is a human being. Those creatures make mistakes, have feelings and emotions and sometimes feel so passionate about things that they do things beyond their own control due to something called 'personality traits', apparently.

Michael is clearly an android.

Don't be confusing the issue, Dribbler, I think Shane already thinks I am of the opinion that Schumacher didn't cheat in 94!!

[Shane2 0]

Have you not read my post 160 yet?

Ah i see you where being an idiot, should have guessed with the avatar. And there is a pretty big dividing line between making a mistake and blatant cheating, there is also a big dividing line between making the mistake once and making it several times. Micheal was guilty of both.

Oh and particularly love the comments about brazil. Ask yourself how many of the people he passed, apart from Kimi actually made any attempt whatsoever to fight him off

[dribbler 6]

Ah i see you where being an idiot, should have guessed with the avatar. And there is a pretty big dividing line between making a mistake and blatant cheating, there is also a big dividing line between making the mistake once and making it several times. Micheal was guilty of both.

Oh and particularly love the comments about brazil. Ask yourself how many of the people he passed, apart from Kimi actually made any attempt whatsoever to fight him off

Your voice was clearly out of key in the chorus. You ruined the song. Get some singing lessons. Whilst you're there, ask them if they give lessons in tact and discretion. They might throw a sense of humour in for free.

I'm in no mood to justify or talk up Michael and clearly you are in no mood to hear it. Michael cheated and made mistakes. True fans will admit that.

Only idiots hold that against him as the events which define him. Join me in idiot world. It's great up here.

[Shane2 0]

Yet it is completely unidiotic to say you want advertising boards to fall on Alonso? i see this as being a clear case of the pig calling the dog dirty. I am a fan of the sport, and i do not like him because he tried on numerous occasions to cheat. He was the most unsporting driver in the history of the sport and if you get an opinion poll, most people that are not in his fan group will admit that.

I hate unsporting behaviour, so i hate michael. I personally think that to be labelled an idiot because i dont like unsporting behaviour is pretty strong. F1 is a sport after all, and there where 21 other competitors.

[cavallino 2]

I hate unsporting behaviour, so i hate michael. I personally think that to be labelled an idiot because i dont like unsporting behaviour is pretty strong. F1 is a sport after all, and there where 21 other competitors.

Enough with the hypocrisy please. You are an Alonso fan, fair enough but don't try to justify it with such incorrect statements. If you dislike unsporting behaviour what did you think of what he did in Hungary, you pick on Michael for Ferrari's use of team orders, what do you think of the use of team orders by Fernando's team over the last two years. you object to Irvine's blocking, what do you think of the blocking done by Renault with Fisi over these two years. Support whom you want but ditch that holier than thou attitude.

[Shane2 0]

Firstly: Fisi didnt block anyone

Secondly: I have already stated that Fernando's penalty was just, and what he did was stupid, i do not condone what Fernando did in any way, and i am glad he got penalised, because it taught him a lesson, which i feel he has learnt. i see a case of seletive memotr again here. As for renault's team orders the only time i even remember him passing Fisi during 06 was at China, and the only time during 05 was in Canada, and i sure as hell have NEVER seen them switch their drivers on the finish line. Suffering from the selective memory affliction, i am sure you have forgotten that Alonso actually came on the radio 2 or 3 times in canada 05 and said he was faster. They gave fisi several chances, and only gave fernando the takeover order when it was quiet clear fisi was drastically holding up, and was not gonna speed up. Fernando only finally got past him when his hydraulics went. At almost every other GP fisi was behind fernando on the track, so i fail to see how that constitutes using team orders throughout the season.

[cavallino 2]

Firstly: Fisi didnt block anyone

See the other thread.

and i sure as hell have NEVER seen them switch their drivers on the finish line.

What do you think is an appropriate time to switch drivers, which makes it entirely acceptable?

They gave fisi several chances, and only gave fernando the takeover order when it was quiet clear fisi was drastically holding up, and was not gonna speed up. Fernando only finally got past him when his hydraulics went. At almost every other GP fisi was behind fernando on the track, so i fail to see how that constitutes using team orders throughout the season.

The race was Turkey 2005, not Canada where Fisi retired form the lead. Renault asked Fisi to let Alonso through on lap 2 - yes plenty of time to know who was faster

[Kati 0]

Firstly: Fisi didnt block anyone

maybe fisi didn't block anyone, i actually don't care... but i wasn't happy to see he decided to crash on nick this year on italy not to catch fernando's car...

[Shane2 0]

That was an accident i am sure he wouldn't take nick out deliberately

[Kati 0]

what? the team even said choosing on taking nick instead of fernando out was a 'sport team attitude'...