Driver Of The Day British Gp

[AleHop 0]

Kimi needed to make up a certain amount of time to steal 1st from Alonso. He did it and gained 1st. That wasn't the car, it was Kimi...doing exactly what Michael would have done. IF he can do that each race Kimi will win again and again and again.

Ok, we all agree on that Raikkonen is a very good driver, that wasn't the car, but he is on a Ferrari, that was the car.

Ferrari had a better consistency for the whole race than McLaren and you can bet Massa would have finished on podium if he hadn't stalled his car.

He was able to, at Brawn's request, pull out blindingly fast laps in order to overtake the competition.

Sounds like sci-fi.

Good as Alonso is, he proved unable to do that last season and continues to prove unable to do that. It is not all down to the car.

How could he beat Michael last year then?

[Autumnpuma 0]

Ok, we all agree on that Raikkonen is a very good driver, that wasn't the car, but he is on a Ferrari, that was the car.

Ferrari had a better consistency for the whole race than McLaren and you can bet Massa would have finished on podium if he hadn't stalled his car.

Better consistency? Consistency of lap times is determined by the driver, not the car. Kimi would have passed Lewis at some point on speed alone. Alonso short-fueled himself to come out ahead of Kimi and put in some very fast laps. Alonso did enough that when he pitted again, earlier than Kimi, Kimi then needed to pull off some blinding laps to take back the lead. It was not a foregone conclusion that Kimi would win at that point, he had to pull off those fast laps to do it. He did so and took the lead.

Sounds like sci-fi.

That explains much.

How could he beat Michael last year then?

He almost didn't. He was saved by building up a great points lead in the beginning of the season and by being consistent throught the remainder of the season. The races Michael won, he won by doing exactly what Kimi did on Sunday. It remains to be seen if Kimi can do that for each race.

[freaky2 1]

Better consistency? Consistency of lap times is determined by the driver, not the car. Kimi would have passed Lewis at some point on speed alone. Alonso short-fueled himself to come out ahead of Kimi and put in some very fast laps. Alonso did enough that when he pitted again, earlier than Kimi, Kimi then needed to pull off some blinding laps to take back the lead. It was not a foregone conclusion that Kimi would win at that point, he had to pull off those fast laps to do it. He did so and took the lead.

As much of a Kimi fan I am, and I agree with you about the fast in and out laps being a key to victory and overtaking faster cars, Kimi did have the fastest car out there. The times he made demonstrate it. Alonso couldn't increase his desired gap in any way, and Kimi had fuel for 6 laps more than him on board, so that was because of the car. He was able to make almost the same times as Alonso with a heavier car. He didn't make any mistake though, and that's good to know.

[Autumnpuma 0]

As much of a Kimi fan I am, and I agree with you about the fast in and out laps being a key to victory and overtaking faster cars, Kimi did have the fastest car out there. The times he made demonstrate it. Alonso couldn't increase his desired gap in any way, and Kimi had fuel for 6 laps more than him on board, so that was because of the car. He was able to make almost the same times as Alonso with a heavier car. He didn't make any mistake though, and that's good to know.

This is Deja Vu all over again. I was argued with so much last year for hyping Hamilton's talent that I was turning blue and it's happening again. Ah well, like so many other instances, time will prove me correct and everyone will jump on the bandwagon. No worries.

[AleHop 0]

He was saved by building up a great points lead in the beginning of the season and by being consistent throught the remainder of the season.

Again, how could he built up that great points lead in the beginning?

And how could he be so consistent through the remainder of the season?

You're near to catch your fingers!

[freaky2 1]

This is Deja Vu all over again. I was argued with so much last year for hyping Hamilton's talent that I was turning blue and it's happening again. Ah well, like so many other instances, time will prove me correct and everyone will jump on the bandwagon. No worries.

Well, I just told you(or tried to imply) I'd like that to happen. It's just that I don't see it that clearly! My apologies, sir!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Again, how could he built up that great points lead in the beginning?

And how could he be so consistent through the remainder of the season?

You're near to catch your fingers!

Oh dear.

Well, I just told you(or tried to imply) I'd like that to happen. It's just that I don't see it that clearly! My apologies, sir!

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound the way it did...I just have that same feeling now about this as I did about Hamilton! I understand what you're getting at but we simply disagree. For now.

[Max Mosley 2]

I think Kimi will gradually get on top of Massa from now on, and he may well still be WDC, but I think you're reading a lot into one race, where he had the best car.

It is not all down to the car. Saying that seems to me an excuse to get out of thinking about all the variables involved.

Whereas I think the converse. People tend to invent variables to make the WDC more meaningful than it is. I think the car was the decisive factor at Silverstone. Yes Kimi did quite well, but swap 'Nando's and Kimi's cars and I think the cars would have finished in very similar formation, with the different drivers.

EDIT 2:Took out the arrogant parts....sheesh I'm full of myself today...

Nah. We like the arrogance.

[Autumnpuma 0]

I think Kimi will gradually get on top of Massa from now on, and he may well still be WDC, but I think you're reading a lot into one race, where he had the best car.

Maybe. It's always a difficult thing to argue the car vs. the driver. Kimi has won other races this season, but I wasn't saying this after those. I am saying it now. Something has happened to Kimi in England....and the next few races will tell if I'm right or wrong.

[AleHop 0]

Oh dear.

The car, that's the question.

Today F1 is 20% drivers, 80% cars and all the out of reach variables.

[Hapankaalimies 0]

Usually the winners of the championship, or a single race has the best car (or atleast one of the best). Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Kimi have all won races with the best car at that race.

It is a combination af a car and a driver that wins races. Neither can win races without the other. The winning combination differs from race to race.

What I'm saying is that while you can't read too much into one race, you also can't take it away from Kimi.

All four drivers still have a shot to the championship and I strongly believe that all four are still gonna win races this year (with the best car). Consistency is the key here.

[Oli 1]

Kimi for me. Massa a close second, but I think Kimi was under more pressure to cement his victory at Manky Course. Nice to see an actual proper smile from him (with teeth- I didn't even know Kimi had teeth!).

Bring back the old points system! Can anybody be bothered to work out what the WDC table would look like?

(Me neither)

[Autumnpuma 0]

Usually the winners of the championship, or a single race has the best car (or atleast one of the best). Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Kimi have all won races with the best car at that race.

I believe we all understand this.

What I'm saying is that while you can't read too much into one race, you also can't take it away from Kimi.

All four drivers still have a shot to the championship and I strongly believe that all four are still gonna win races this year (with the best car). Consistency is the key here.

Kimi had a fast Ferrari, no doubt. McLaren pulled a masterstroke and short-fueled Alonso to take the lead and Alonso did pull out a gap to Kimi in that time. When Alonso pitted Kimi's fast car alone would not have made the difference. He needed to run purple for a few laps in order to beat Alonso. He did it. The car didn't go purple, Kimi's driving enabled the car to go purple and take the position back from Alonso. It seems so clear to me that I wonder why this is being disagreed with.

My own opinion is that Kimi has found the key to Michael's winning ways. This is my feeling that he will continue this for the rest of the season. I am not a Kimi-lover...the old-timers here will tell you that much! By admitting Kimi has stepped up I'm also admitting I was wrong about him and that's a hard thing to do...especially on the proof of only one race! I'm gambling that my guts are telling me the right thing about Kimi.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Whereas I think the converse. People tend to invent variables to make the WDC more meaningful than it is. I think the car was the decisive factor at Silverstone. Yes Kimi did quite well, but swap 'Nando's and Kimi's cars and I think the cars would have finished in very similar formation, with the different drivers.

What invented variables?

[Max Mosley 2]

What invented variables?

People do. It's all in my earlier post Mike. Imho the car was the decisive factor. Kimi had to do a reasonably decent job to win, but nothing more than that because he had the best car. Alonso would have managed it too, I think, probably as well as Lewis, Massa and a few others perhaps. If Kimi hadn't won it would have been a humiliating failure, given he clearly had the better car, and was only held up by Lewis because of a mistake in qualifying.

Maybe. It's always a difficult thing to argue the car vs. the driver. Kimi has won other races this season, but I wasn't saying this after those. I am saying it now. Something has happened to Kimi in England....and the next few races will tell if I'm right or wrong.

I think he is just gradually getting to grips with Massa and his new team/tyres/car.

The car, that's the question.

Today F1 is 20% drivers, 80% cars and all the out of reach variables.

Yes. Imho too few people accept that.

Usually the winners of the championship, or a single race has the best car (or atleast one of the best). Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Kimi have all won races with the best car at that race.

It is a combination af a car and a driver that wins races. Neither can win races without the other. The winning combination differs from race to race.

What I'm saying is that while you can't read too much into one race, you also can't take it away from Kimi.

I think this is ducking the issue. You can take it away from Kimi. He only won because of his car. Saying that that's the case for every win nowadays doesn't earn Kimi any extra credit in my book.

[Autumnpuma 0]

People do. It's all in my earlier post Mike. Imho the car was the decisive factor. Kimi had to do a reasonably decent job to win, but nothing more than that because he had the best car. Alonso would have managed it too, I think, probably as well as Lewis, Massa and a few others perhaps. If Kimi hadn't won it would have been a humiliating failure, given he clearly had the better car, and was only held up by Lewis because of a mistake in qualifying.

I asked you to list the invented variables that some people use to make a WDC more important than it is. I must have missed those when looking at your previous posts...could you re-post them please.

I think he is just gradually getting to grips with Massa and his new team/tyres/car.

You say that and dismiss out of hand the ramifications of it. In my view of an F1 driver, being the 'best' is taking all the variables you allude to above as being 'invented' and producing a win. 'getting to grips with Mass and his new team/tyres/car' wraps all those 'invented' variable into one deft phrase. You have proven my case for me, Murray!

Yes. Imho too few people accept that.

Perhaps because it isn't true.

I think this is ducking the issue. You can take it away from Kimi. He only won because of his car. Saying that that's the case for every win nowadays doesn't earn Kimi any extra credit in my book.

Wrongo-bongo. He won it because he came to grips with his team/tyres/car better than did Massa. He played the variables better than the rest. These cars on the sharp end of the grid are only separated by a few tenths of a second...that's extremely close. The deciding factor is usually the driver and his skills.

To prove this, you need only look at McLaren in Silverstone. Both cars were the same. Both drivers had the same variables at their disposal to produce results from. One driver crossed the finish line 30 SECONDS ahead of the other driver. That wasn't down to the car, that was down to one driver playing the variables better.

This logic can be extended to any driver in any team. Dismiss the driver's achievements if you like, but you are robbing yourself of a greater understanding of F1.

[DarkLord 0]

2 votes for hamilton for doing what? screwing up his own race?

[dribbler 6]

Kimi has unlocked half of Michael's secret and now we will see if he can unlock the other part: consistency.

Shhh, don't tell the other drivers, they'll all be doing it.

Better consistency? Consistency of lap times is determined by the driver, not the car. Kimi would have passed Lewis at some point on speed alone. Alonso short-fueled himself to come out ahead of Kimi and put in some very fast laps. Alonso did enough that when he pitted again, earlier than Kimi, Kimi then needed to pull off some blinding laps to take back the lead. It was not a foregone conclusion that Kimi would win at that point, he had to pull off those fast laps to do it. He did so and took the lead.

That explains much.

He almost didn't. He was saved by building up a great points lead in the beginning of the season and by being consistent throught the remainder of the season. The races Michael won, he won by doing exactly what Kimi did on Sunday. It remains to be seen if Kimi can do that for each race.

There is no evidence from you that Kimi alone made the difference. What was evident was that that the Ferrari was the fastest car. Purple sectors when he needed to? Yes, but at that stage, on light tanks only a monkey with his arms tied would have been slow. Kimi did what he needed to do but this was no Hungary '98.

Maybe. It's always a difficult thing to argue the car vs. the driver. Kimi has won other races this season, but I wasn't saying this after those. I am saying it now. Something has happened to Kimi in England....and the next few races will tell if I'm right or wrong.

It has become clear to me Lewis and Fernando pendulum will swing back and forth all year long because neither one has a decisive car preference. Kimi however is clearly enjoying his new found form in a car that has been finally adapted to his liking. For this reason, unless Ferrari retro-set up, Kimi is now king at Maranello, in my view.

The car didn't go purple, Kimi's driving enabled the car to go purple and take the position back from Alonso. It seems so clear to me that I wonder why this is being disagreed with.

Classic Michael was winning on a day when his opponents had an upper hand and his team mate was nowhere. Well, in Silverstone, Mclaren were down and Massa was rampant. That's why i disagree that Kimi made the difference.

To prove this, you need only look at McLaren in Silverstone. Both cars were the same. Both drivers had the same variables at their disposal to produce results from. One driver crossed the finish line 30 SECONDS ahead of the other driver. That wasn't down to the car, that was down to one driver playing the variables better.

You should have listened to what Ron Dennis said, Mike. When it became clear that Lewis was not going to win, the engine revs were turned down. That darned engine has got to be used in Germany. Nothing to do with the driver and variables.

This logic can be extended to any driver in any team. Dismiss the driver's achievements if you like, but you are robbing yourself of a greater understanding of F1.

Oops, that arrogance is back again.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

This whole debate.... Mike is really making the most sense......

Consider this. When Alonso took over the lead with less fuel than Kimi, the key was that Kimi should stay intact with Alonso up to his second pitstop. With six laps more fuel!!!!!!!!! The race was won when Alonso in a lighter car could'nt build up that lead, simply because of Kimi being on the limit the whole flipping time. We all saw Kimi go onto the grass in that middle phase, thats how on it he was. Combine it with the Schumie-like in and out laps and you will find it was more the man than the car!!!!!

Sorry to let you down, Todt called Kimi's race simply majestic, thats how it really was folks.... accept it or not

[SuperKimi 0]

Felipe was absolutly awsome. Great to see him fight his way back through the field, fabolous drive.

I think it could have been another ferrari one- two if Massa hadn't had that problem, or at least threatened Hamilton's third.

[AleHop 0]

It seems so clear to me that I wonder why this is being disagreed with.

I wonder how it is so clear to you.

[Karta 0]

I am so fed up with overestimating Hamilton. He has not been best Mclaren driver even so far. Only reason he is leading WCC is because Alonso had great problems in two races, neither of his own creation. Unless you call unavoidable pit stop during Safety car and car problem during Qualification driver related problems?

[Hapankaalimies 0]

Hamilton is leading the championship because of he is a great driver but also because he hasn't had any bad luck yet. Hes only real mistakes came in Silverstone and those didn't even cost him a single position in the race.

If Hamiltons car doesn't at some point face technical problems he is very close to winning the world championship.

But to win he also has to be in front of both Alonso and Kimi. Those two are now getting to understand their cars and set ups so that they will be more of a challenge than what they used to be before.

[Max Mosley 2]

I asked you to list the invented variables that some people use to make a WDC more important than it is. I must have missed those when looking at your previous posts...could you re-post them please.

My reply "people do" to your actual question "what invented variables?" was an illustration of how language can be ambiguous. By "invent" I clearly meant "exaggerate the importance of". Of course there are many variables involved in winning a GP. For example, the pit crew had to not mess up, the Ferrari truck drivers had to deliver all the equipment to the track successfully, Kimi's parents had to be feeling horny at the right time to produce Kimi etc. But I think we all agree some variables are more important than others.

In this case, if you gave Kimi's Ferrari to many other drivers they would likely also have won imho because it was the best car by quite some way. Therefore the decisive factor was the car, not the driver. Are you seriously saying that if Kimi had been in the McLaren and Alonso in the Ferrari, then Kimi would still have beaten Alonso?

You say that and dismiss out of hand the ramifications of it. In my view of an F1 driver, being the 'best' is taking all the variables you allude to above as being 'invented' and producing a win. 'getting to grips with Mass and his new team/tyres/car' wraps all those 'invented' variable into one deft phrase. You have proven my case for me, Murray!

No Mike, clearly within a team-mate battle the driver makes a difference (though by no means the only difference) but when competing with other cars, the cars normally dominate. I think your defence of the WDC is circular. You are saying that it is meaningful because the driver who wins it is the "best", but then define "best" to involve "producing a win". All the independent evidence suggests to me that the car largely determines the results.

Wrongo-bongo. He won it because he came to grips with his team/tyres/car better than did Massa. He played the variables better than the rest. These cars on the sharp end of the grid are only separated by a few tenths of a second...that's extremely close. The deciding factor is usually the driver and his skills.

No again. He beat Massa because Massa had a technical problem! And we're fortunate this year that the cars are quite close atm, normally that's not the case. Nevertheless, I think the gap between the cars at Silverstone was several tenths of a second. Probably at least 0.3s/lap. Imho the difference between two on form, top drivers, in cars run for them specifically, is little more than 0.1s/lap, if that.

To prove this, you need only look at McLaren in Silverstone. Both cars were the same. Both drivers had the same variables at their disposal to produce results from. One driver crossed the finish line 30 SECONDS ahead of the other driver. That wasn't down to the car, that was down to one driver playing the variables better.

Yes but Steve answered this very well.

There is no evidence from you that Kimi alone made the difference. What was evident was that that the Ferrari was the fastest car. Purple sectors when he needed to? Yes, but at that stage, on light tanks only a monkey with his arms tied would have been slow. Kimi did what he needed to do but this was no Hungary '98.

Yes, this is exactly how I see it.

The race was won when Alonso in a lighter car could'nt build up that lead, simply because of Kimi being on the limit the whole flipping time.

But Kimi had a better car! No wonder Alonso couldn't pull away.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

But Kimi had a better car! No wonder Alonso couldn't pull away.

Kimi had the faster car with a heavier fuel load. Alonso must be a very slow driver.