Driver Of The Day British Gp

[Max Mosley 2]

Yeah I agree completely. Rubens once said that he would never be able to match Schumi's out laps. But the crucial point about Michael is that he was always on the limit throughout the whole race (unless it was already won etc) and so beat faster cars through strategy. In the last race Kimi had (or should have had) a good 18s in his pocket thanks to his car. It should have been a walk in the park as far as I can see.

[dribbler 6]

Yeah I agree completely. Rubens once said that he would never be able to match Schumi's out laps. But the crucial point about Michael is that he was always on the limit throughout the whole race (unless it was already won etc) and so beat faster cars through strategy. In the last race Kimi had (or should have had) a good 18s in his pocket thanks to his car. It should have been a walk in the park as far as I can see.

Yup. But these days they only do what they have gotta do. The two engine rule was not prevalent in Michael's reign. I guess that's why the fast in laps and out laps are so glaringly obvious in terms of how much quicker they are than race pace. It's because sometimes they are not flat out like they used to be. It has become a category of management and mechanical sympathy. Something it seems, Kimi has finally grasped.

[Max Mosley 2]

Yeah, I think that's probably the real reason his lap times suddenly improved. He wasn't flat out before. Of course that doesn't change the fact that it should have been an easy win. Also there's no need to be fastest on your in/out laps now either. You might as well push for a few laps at any point in the race, or even just maintain a steady pace throughout the race.

[pabloh20 1]

Producing hot in laps is easy. You are driving a car, which by virtue of it being nearly empty, is going to be fast. The magic comes from delivering a mighty out lap when you are on cold, unknown rubber. It's about having the confidence to be on the limit immediately. You can only do that if you have superior feel to your opponents.

Not trying to agree or disagree here. Just random thoughts coming out which may take the discussion somewhere similar but a little different!

Very true, Steve, but didn't Michael produce in-laps that were nearly always faster than everybody else too?

Yeah I agree completely. Rubens once said that he would never be able to match Schumi's out laps. But the crucial point about Michael is that he was always on the limit throughout the whole race (unless it was already won etc) and so beat faster cars through strategy. In the last race Kimi had (or should have had) a good 18s in his pocket thanks to his car. It should have been a walk in the park as far as I can see.

This is only my opinion, but I don't actually think Michael had a 'qualifying' lap as such, certainly not like Senna did, for example. However, he was able to drive that pace virtually the whole race if he had to.

Yup. But these days they only do what they have gotta do. The two engine rule was not prevalent in Michael's reign. I guess that's why the fast in laps and out laps are so glaringly obvious in terms of how much quicker they are than race pace. It's because sometimes they are not flat out like they used to be. It has become a category of management and mechanical sympathy. Something it seems, Kimi has finally grasped.

Good point.

Yeah, I think that's probably the real reason his lap times suddenly improved. He wasn't flat out before. Of course that doesn't change the fact that it should have been an easy win. Also there's no need to be fastest on your in/out laps now either. You might as well push for a few laps at any point in the race, or even just maintain a steady pace throughout the race.

If you push on your extra laps and in/out laps when your opponent has just pitted and has a heavy car, you have a better chance of pressing home your advantage, rather than doing it when your opponent can respond.

[Max Mosley 2]

This is only my opinion, but I don't actually think Michael had a 'qualifying' lap as such, certainly not like Senna did, for example. However, he was able to drive that pace virtually the whole race if he had to.

Yeah I agree. This is Alonso's main strength too I think.

If you push on your extra laps and in/out laps when your opponent has just pitted and has a heavy car, you have a better chance of pressing home your advantage, rather than doing it when your opponent can respond.

I actually disagree to some extent Paul. That is only true if you have an element of surprise, which doesn't exist normally in F1, certainly not in the last race anyway. Think about the total time each driver takes to complete the race. This is what determines who wins. It doesn't matter when you push extra hard, the time benefit will be the same. (There is a special skill to doing fast out laps, but that is a separate issue to when you push the car hard.) Basically, if Kimi had performed as well as Alonso over the weekend he would have had such a gap it wouldn't have mattered when he pushed.

[pabloh20 1]

Yeah I agree. This is Alonso's main strength too I think.

I actually disagree to some extent Paul. That is only true if you have an element of surprise, which doesn't exist normally in F1, certainly not in the last race anyway. Think about the total time each driver takes to complete the race. This is what determines who wins. It doesn't matter when you push extra hard, the time benefit will be the same. (There is a special skill to doing fast out laps, but that is a separate issue to when you push the car hard.) Basically, if Kimi had performed as well as Alonso over the weekend he would have had such a gap it wouldn't have mattered when he pushed.

Nope I disagree! When the teams are protecting their engines then I think, as Steve says, they will only push when they have to. For example, McLaren apparently turned down Lewis' engine very early in the race when they thought he didn't have much of a chance, but presumably they pushed Alonso's engine a bit harder because they thought he was in with a chance. And of course you can 'sandbag' too, as I think Ferrari did. I still don't think they showed us their complete flat out race pace, I still think they had some in reserve, well as far as Kimi goes, anyway.

[Max Mosley 2]

Disagreement makes the world go round. Or is that lust? Anyway, rather the former than the latter from you Paul, so keep those hands on the keyboard.

Well, I still disagree. You can push whenever you like and the time gained will be the same, as far as I can see. And I agree Ferrari weren't even pushing flat out for most of the race. But I doubt there was any surprise for McLaren, given all the info and modelling they have these days.

[dark rider 13 0]

not nessaserally because if u push wen ur in second and gain enuf time ull have to deal with the Sh#tty air witch wont do ur car or time any good so probably was better to push for kimi wen he new he wouldnt have to deal with this factor!

[Max Mosley 2]

Yes in general there are extenuating circumstances like that, but in this case he was too far back (I seem to remember) for that to be an issue. Also he shouldn't have been in second anyway. He was only there due to his mistake in qualifying, which meant he got held up by Hamilton for 16 laps. Finally he didn't drop back that much from Hamilton in the first stint, which would make it slightly strange if he did in the second stint from Alonso.

[dribbler 6]

Very true, Steve, but didn't Michael produce in-laps that were nearly always faster than everybody else too?

Yes, sometimes. My point was though that in laps are easier because the performance comes towards you. On out laps you have to take the performance to the car, if that makes sense. In this area, Michael was masterly.

And of course you can 'sandbag' too, as I think Ferrari did. I still don't think they showed us their complete flat out race pace, I still think they had some in reserve, well as far as Kimi goes, anyway.

Excellent point. There is definitely an element of what i would call 'performance masquerading'. Why go flat out only to show your opposition just how hard they have got to develop their own car? As Graham says though, if us monkeys are on the case i'm sure Mclaren are!

[pumpdoc 2]

When Alonso came out after his second stop from the lead to second place Kimi had ruffly a 22 sec advantage, not enough to pit and come back out with the lead, by pushing for the next 6 laps he gained the ruffly 5 more seconds that he need to come back out in front which he did and on old tires etc. Schumi was a master at this, Kimi is learning that this will win him races. Whew, that's a lot of bloviating from me.

[pabloh20 1]

Yes, sometimes. My point was though that in laps are easier because the performance comes towards you. On out laps you have to take the performance to the car, if that makes sense. In this area, Michael was masterly.

Excellent point. There is definitely an element of what i would call 'performance masquerading'. Why go flat out only to show your opposition just how hard they have got to develop their own car? As Graham says though, if us monkeys are on the case i'm sure Mclaren are!

I am under no illusion, Steve, that if we have an inkling of it, then McLaren are surely on the case - thanks for making me feel not special, though!

What McLaren might have a better idea than us about, though, is how much Ferrari were sandbagging. However, that might be the tricky part to work out exactly, even for them.

[pabloh20 1]

Disagreement makes the world go round. Or is that lust? Anyway, rather the former than the latter from you Paul, so keep those hands on the keyboard.

Well, I still disagree. You can push whenever you like and the time gained will be the same, as far as I can see. And I agree Ferrari weren't even pushing flat out for most of the race. But I doubt there was any surprise for McLaren, given all the info and modelling they have these days.

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks!

In essence you may be right, Muzza, but I think even the most 'driven' (no pun intended) person responds better when there is a target to aspire to. So if you push too early in a race, then you can give the people behind you something to aim at, within reason. Or alternatively, you can push hard and try to 'break their will', as it were, you see this a bit in motorbike racing.

It does seem these days, particularly this year, in F1, that they are not pushing on like they used to, certainly not in the first race cycle of the engine. So the least amount of pushing they have to do to win, seems to be the order of the day for Ferrari and McLaren at the moment.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

It does seem these days, particularly this year, in F1, that they are not pushing on like they used to, certainly not in the first race cycle of the engine. So the least amount of pushing they have to do to win, seems to be the order of the day for Ferrari and McLaren at the moment.

I don't know Paul, seems like Kimi was pushing like hell for 3/4 of the way at least... and he still widened the gap to Alonso at the end to 7 seconds. I'm sceptical....

[pabloh20 1]

I don't know Paul, seems like Kimi was pushing like hell for 3/4 of the way at least... and he still widened the gap to Alonso at the end to 7 seconds. I'm sceptical....

Fair enough, Brad. I'm just not convinced we saw the outright pace of Ferrari, but it's only a gut feeling.

[Max Mosley 2]

When Alonso came out after his second stop from the lead to second place Kimi had ruffly a 22 sec advantage, not enough to pit and come back out with the lead, by pushing for the next 6 laps he gained the ruffly 5 more seconds that he need to come back out in front which he did and on old tires etc. Schumi was a master at this, Kimi is learning that this will win him races. Whew, that's a lot of bloviating from me.

Nah that's pitiful bloviation by the standards of this thread. Anyway you know I still don't think it was that impressive.

What McLaren might have a better idea than us about, though, is how much Ferrari were sandbagging. However, that might be the tricky part to work out exactly, even for them.

I guess to work it out exactly is tough, but I bet they have a pretty good idea, what with all the computational modelling they do now. I reckon they could even give us a breakdown of the Ferrari's performance, like how much drag it generates at various speeds, so they know where they need to improve.

Drivers often say they don't, but it's pretty easy to tell most of what they say in the press conference is a complete lie! If you believe what Alonso said about cleaning his tyres at Indy, or how hard the team was pushing at Monaco, you'd swallow anything.

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks!

Now now Paul. I may be a slut but I'm not a lady.

In essence you may be right, Muzza, but I think even the most 'driven' (no pun intended) person responds better when there is a target to aspire to. So if you push too early in a race, then you can give the people behind you something to aim at, within reason. Or alternatively, you can push hard and try to 'break their will', as it were, you see this a bit in motorbike racing.

Yeah that's true you may have a point here, but I'm not sure it applies quite so much when they're all pacing themselves anyway. Also Ferrari might want to bait McLaren into running their engines harder to keep up.

It does seem these days, particularly this year, in F1, that they are not pushing on like they used to, certainly not in the first race cycle of the engine. So the least amount of pushing they have to do to win, seems to be the order of the day for Ferrari and McLaren at the moment.

Yes, which is just another unsatisfactory aspect of f1. You never know how hard they were trying, and hence how impressive their quick laps really were.

I don't know Paul, seems like Kimi was pushing like hell for 3/4 of the way at least... and he still widened the gap to Alonso at the end to 7 seconds. I'm sceptical....

Yes. I personally have no idea whether they were pushing or not. Frankly I doubt Kimi was pushing that hard most of the time, given he had a car that should have been 18s ahead but was only 7s ahead in the end. He looked tired at the end but I don't think he's as fit as Alonso and the Ferrari is a notoriously warm c#ckpit. He surely wasn't pushing too hard at the end, when the race was done and dusted, and he certainly wasn't pushing when he was stuck behind Lewis for 16 laps. Some people would have us believe he was only pushing for 6 laps out of 60!

You raise a good point though. No one can prove you wrong, which is a travesty imho. What a joke. How can we tell who is the best when we don't even know if they were going at it like a sodomite in Genesis or Kimi in a press conference?

[dribbler 6]

What McLaren might have a better idea than us about, though, is how much Ferrari were sandbagging. However, that might be the tricky part to work out exactly, even for them.

You think? I reckon Mike Couglan could tell you precisely how much.

[Autumnpuma 0]

When Alonso came out after his second stop from the lead to second place Kimi had ruffly a 22 sec advantage, not enough to pit and come back out with the lead, by pushing for the next 6 laps he gained the ruffly 5 more seconds that he need to come back out in front which he did and on old tires etc. Schumi was a master at this, Kimi is learning that this will win him races. Whew, that's a lot of bloviating from me.

This is what I was trying to say. You talk about experience, Murray, and I tell you that Bruce could teach us all a thing or two about racing. I also say that if Bruce is agreeing with me, I'm confident my argument is sound.

[Max Mosley 2]

OK Mike. I'll agree to disagree. I think we've both run out of arguments.

[dribbler 6]

I also say that if Bruce is agreeing with me, I'm confident my argument is sound.

You're both just a couple of bouncers in the TF1 night club.

[dark rider 13 0]

You think? I reckon Mike Couglan could tell you precisely how much.

credit were cridits due that was funni!

[Piotr 0]

I agree with Piotr on Bob. I think he (Bob, not Piotr) would probably be my driver of the day, assuming Nick didn't have any problems.

What am I, chopped liver? I commute 128 miles every day. You should see what I can do in a stock 1.8l 2001 Nissan Sentra! Every day I do not wreck makes me the Driver of the Day!!

Ok, it's late and I'm getting silly now...

[Quiet One 15]

What am I, chopped liver? I commute 128 miles every day. You should see what I can do in a stock 1.8l 2001 Nissan Sentra! Every day I do not wreck makes me the Driver of the Day!!

Ok, it's late and I'm getting silly now...

Nah, you were getting silly before...

(J/k, of course )

[Max Mosley 2]

@ Piotr: OK I take it back. I bet you crash less than your compatriot...

[Piotr 0]

Nah, you were getting silly before...

Sorrrry for my Eeeenglysh. I meant "sillier than normal..."

(J/k, of course )