European Gp Race

[Sato 0]

Button's was fair enough, as he was like the 3rd car to hit that spot and went flying, everyone after him at least had some sort of warning, but still didn't stop them going off even faster than him.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I wouldn't say he was marginally faster than Schumi last year over wet Hungaroring.

My problem is that Alonso is always only marginally faster than... But then everybody owns Nando when things go the other way round.

only 1 or 2 people have said that. Every decent F1 fan still recognises that Hamilton is not already an all-round better F1 driver than Alonso, although he has outperformed Alonso far more than expected this year.

i'm really disappointed that Button went off at the start, he could've got a great result. He must feel gutted

[ykickamoocow 0]

only 1 or 2 people have said that. Every decent F1 fan still recognises that Hamilton is not already an all-round better F1 driver than Alonso, although he has outperformed Alonso far more than expected this year.

i'm really disappointed that Button went off at the start, he could've got a great result. He must feel gutted

I agree Button could have got a point or 2 but i dont think he would have received any more than that.

[Fed up 0]

1st Alonso (Brilliant in the rain & double world champion)

Rain def brings out talent and Experience in equal measures...

Also, check at the drivers to end up in turn one's sandpit...

Hamilton, Speed, Button, Davidson, Luizzi...

Apart from Button they are all drivers with little experience!

Nuff said -

Alonso is very quick in the rain, felipe or even Kimi would have had a very slim chance of keeping ahead under those conditions.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Alonso is very quick in the rain, felipe or even Kimi would have had a very slim chance of keeping ahead under those conditions.

At the 2003 Indeanapolis grand prix only Schumie and Kimi drove well in the rain, can't remember where Nando ended. On another rainy day he crashed into a tyre... To say Kimi had a slim chance to stay ahead is quite unflattering.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I agree Button could have got a point or 2 but i dont think he would have received any more than that.

A point or 2 is like a win for Honda these days!

[NeoData 0]

At the 2003 Indeanapolis grand prix only Schumie and Kimi drove well in the rain, can't remember where Nando ended. On another rainy day he crashed into a tyre... To say Kimi had a slim chance to stay ahead is quite unflattering.

Indianapolis is to Alonso what the Nurburgring is to Kimi

In 2003 his engine blew up on lap 6.

Kimi had no chance to win either way since his car had a mechanical failure which is ironic since he moved to Ferrari because of McLaren's lack of reliability.

I am looking forward to a real battle between Kimi and Alonso in the wet and dry .

Every time it looks like it might come to that we get cheated by a mechanical failure.

[Fed up 0]

Indianapolis is to Alonso what the Nurburgring is to Kimi

In 2003 his engine blew up on lap 6.

Kimi had no chance to win either way since his car had a mechanical failure which is ironic since he moved to Ferrari because of McLaren's lack of reliability.

I am looking forward to a real battle between Kimi and Alonso in the wet and dry .

Every time it looks like it might come to that we get cheated by a mechanical failure.

TBH I think Kimi is out of the reckoning for this year's WDC - Alonso has got to be favourite with the challenge coming from either Massa or Hamilton. Should be interesting mind

[NeoData 0]

TBH I think Kimi is out of the reckoning for this year's WDC - Alonso has got to be favourite with the challenge coming from either Massa or Hamilton. Should be interesting mind

I wasnt even thinking about Kimi challenging for the WDC.

I'm not ready to fully count him out yet but I do agree that things are looking really bad for Kimi.

When i said "I am looking forward to a real battle between Kimi and Alonso in the wet and dry."

I merely ment I am looking forward a battle between them for a position in a race preferably for 1st place.

[Max Mosley 2]

Alonso is very quick in the rain, felipe or even Kimi would have had a very slim chance of keeping ahead under those conditions.

Yes he is very quick in the rain it's true. But personally I think the McLaren is also better suited to wet weather conditions, and I suspect they had set it up for those conditions too on Sunday (or even on Saturday). Considering Kimi had already struggled to drive through the pitlane in wet conditions I doubt he would have been all that much more competitive than Massa, like you say.

[NeoData 0]

Yes he is very quick in the rain it's true. But personally I think the McLaren is also better suited to wet weather conditions, and I suspect they had set it up for those conditions too on Sunday (or even on Saturday). Considering Kimi had already struggled to drive through the pitlane in wet conditions I doubt he would have been all that much more competitive than Massa, like you say.

In an interview after the race Alonso said that they had used a full dry setup for the race and I am inclined to believe him.

If he was driving with a compromised setup his pace with a full dry setup would have been amazing.

[AleHop 0]

In an interview after the race Alonso said that they had used a full dry setup for the race and I am inclined to believe him.

He said to the spanish media that he used to race nearly 50% of the races on a wet track. And he added that when your car works perfect on wet it is amazing how quicker than the others you can be.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Yes Sato!!! Maybe someone just needs to tell that little Brazilian Tw@t that generally when it rains cars become harder to driver!

Alonso Gave him a hiding fair and square! Class comes through in the rain;-)

+1 agree. Massa's just being a sore loser! Alonso overtook him fair & square! I don't know why he started s##teing on about how good Alonso overtook him, in Italian for some reason !

[Max Mosley 2]

In an interview after the race Alonso said that they had used a full dry setup for the race and I am inclined to believe him.

If he was driving with a compromised setup his pace with a full dry setup would have been amazing.

Well I don't necessarily believe what drivers say tbh, but perhaps it was a full dry setup. Either way I think his car worked much better in those conditions than the Ferrari. And compromising your setup in the dry might not affect your pace too much. Lewis looked slightly quicker at various points in the race in the dry for example.

And he [Alonso] added that when your car works perfect on wet it is amazing how quicker than the others you can be.

Yes. Somehow his car was working better. I suspect the McLaren naturally works better in the wet, but also there may be some aspect of the set up that was better too. For example, their best "dry setup" may have happened to include more downforce than Ferrari's.

[NeoData 0]

Well I don't necessarily believe what drivers say tbh, but perhaps it was a full dry setup. Either way I think his car worked much better in those conditions than the Ferrari. And compromising your setup in the dry might not affect your pace too much. Lewis looked slightly quicker at various points in the race in the dry for example.

Yes. Somehow his car was working better. I suspect the McLaren naturally works better in the wet, but also there may be some aspect of the set up that was better too. For example, their best "dry setup" may have happened to include more downforce than Ferrari's.

I think you are right the McLaren is probably a better car in the rain.

Hamilton was also lapping over 1sec a lap quicker then Massa so that would support that theory.

I also noticed Alonso's inconsisted pace after switching to dry tires but after the final planned stop his pace was fine .

I found this very curious untill I ran across this article which seemed to offer a plausible explanation.

For the entire article click here

Here is a small quote from it.

Ron Dennis said

"However his second stint following the switch to dry tyres was hampered by a wing adjustment tool failing and as a result he struggled with understeer, but fortunately in his third stop we were able to properly adjust the wing, and from there his pace was fantastic. "Following the final stop to fit the intermediate rain tyres he and the car came into their own and it was great to be part of such a tremendous drive and a great race win."

On another note I found it highly amusing that Massa told Alonso 2x WDC he should F**k off and learn how to drive.

No wonder Massa was so mad.

He was beaten by a guy who doesnt even know how to drive .

[Autumnpuma 0]

You are wrong of course, Mike

Felipe had a problem with vibration with his final set of Intermediates - His pace was comparable to Nando's during the wet periods of the race, so to say that he has no racecraft is utter rubbish IMHO.

Vibrations indeed! That sounds like an excuse..and not a very good one at that. Go back and watch the pass of Fernando on Massa. Massa acted like a thug; changing lines more than is allowed and then refusing to give the position over once Fernando was alongside..to the point of smashing into Fernando. I am quite correct in my low assessment of Massa's racecraft (for the record, if you're going to dispute me then make some small attempt at getting it right...I never once typed that he had 'no racecraft'.)

It is also worth noting that Nando is the quickest in wet conditions than any driver on the current grid, so he was bound to catch the ailing Felipe. Nando was even marginally faster than the great Schumi in wet conditions last year.

It really gets on my nerves when people jump on felipe's back when all the facts are not known. FWIW he is still very much in the reckoning for the WDC and I hope he wins it if Lewis doesn't.

And you have all the facts, eh? I find that hard to believe considering you couldn't even quote me correctly! Anyway, you're entitled to your opinions, of course, even if they are incorrect!

[Fed up 0]

Massa's problem is what it's always been: lack of talent. He's great when in the lead, but when defending his position he runs out of talent and resorts to amateur blocking moves. Once he's past, Massa is deflated and just gives up...circling the track like a lost puppy. Pathetic. My dislike for his racecraft (or lack thereof) is mounting each race.

Your words mate, not mine

[AleHop 0]

Your words mate, not mine

And the dirty move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQirvitsBR8

[Fed up 0]

TBH I was hoping that Felipe took them both out leaving Hami's lead in tact with 1 race less.

Oh well

[Max Mosley 2]

I think you are right the McLaren is probably a better car in the rain.

Hamilton was also lapping over 1sec a lap quicker then Massa so that would support that theory.

I also noticed Alonso's inconsisted pace after switching to dry tires but after the final planned stop his pace was fine .

I found this very curious untill I ran across this article which seemed to offer a plausible explanation.

For the entire article click here

Here is a small quote from it.

Ron Dennis said

"However his second stint following the switch to dry tyres was hampered by a wing adjustment tool failing and as a result he struggled with understeer, but fortunately in his third stop we were able to properly adjust the wing, and from there his pace was fantastic. "Following the final stop to fit the intermediate rain tyres he and the car came into their own and it was great to be part of such a tremendous drive and a great race win."

On another note I found it highly amusing that Massa told Alonso 2x WDC he should F**k off and learn how to drive.

No wonder Massa was so mad.

He was beaten by a guy who doesnt even know how to drive .

Good post! I agree and thanks for the info from Ron. I think it's relevant to the discussion going on around us, especially the bit where Ron says "Alonso and the car came into their own".

TBH I was hoping that Felipe took them both out leaving Hami's lead in tact with 1 race less.

Oh well

Me too! So close!

[Autumnpuma 0]

Your words mate, not mine

Take note of the word 'or' in that sentence and the fact that it's parenthetical. It makes a difference to pay attention to the details. The 'or' left it open as a possibility, not a foregone conclusion. Without the editorial hypothetical parenthetical (ugh) you'll notice I give him credit for racecraft...not much, mind you, but it's there.

[Fed up 0]

Take note of the word 'or' in that sentence and the fact that it's parenthetical. It makes a difference to pay attention to the details. The 'or' left it open as a possibility, not a foregone conclusion. Without the editorial hypothetical parenthetical (ugh) you'll notice I give him credit for racecraft...not much, mind you, but it's there.

Semantics Mike, but I guess you're right. It did read like you were questioning his lack of race craft - then again, it could be the fact that it is parenthetical! what ever that means

I agree Felipe is not quite on the level of Kimi or Nando, but I still rate him as a capable driver and, more importantly, he comes across as a decent bloke.

[Kay 0]

I like Massa, on occasion he has thrown his toys out of the pram, but lets not forget that Alonso has done the same and did the same before the podium celebrations. Massa might not be the finished article yet, but I think he is better than most give him credit for.

Some aspects of the race made me chuckle, but I'm disgusted the marshals were allowed on the track, I thought the point was safety, how is walking into a dangerous area where 3-4 cars have just slid with no protection to move 1 car less dangerous than waiting until the race has been stopped? Considering drivers were out of control, and even if they were had poor visibility, none of them could have avoided a marshal if on a collision course and I dread to think of the consequences of a car slamming in under the tractor...

In my opinion that rule needs a serious looking over and the marshals AND drivers need to be told about when they have to draw the line. Some people say it is ok because Hamilton didn't score any points, but that isn't the point, is it? It's not about the advantage Hamilton gained but at what expense it could have been.

[Autumnpuma 0]

Semantics Mike, but I guess you're right. It did read like you were questioning his lack of race craft - then again, it could be the fact that it is parenthetical! what ever that means

Parenthetical means it's in parenthesis--in this case something that taken as an aside, yet related, to what's being discussed. An editorial, if you will.

As you say, semantics.

I agree Felipe is not quite on the level of Kimi or Nando, but I still rate him as a capable driver and, more importantly, he comes across as a decent bloke.

He's probably a nice guy, but I think that's irrelevant when talking about his racecraft....so I would dispute the 'more importantly' bit. Of course if that 'decent bloke' personality extends to his behind-the-wheel attitude, perhaps it's relevant after all...who knows. I was probably too harsh when describing his 'thuggish' style.

My estimation of Massa's racecraft is that he's fast but erratic. This is backed up by his fast lap-times but his erratic racing lines which sometimes cause him issues on exit as he's not entering the corner at one consistent point (Peter Windsor, in a past issue of F1 Racing, verifies this).

He fell for Lewis' late-braking antics not once, but twice...at the same corner even!

Once passed on-track he seems not to be able to mount a comeback to retake the position.

While another car is alongside, he refuses to give way or even give the other driver room.

He changes his line multiple times to avoid being overtaken (this could be the result of his sloppy car-positioning skills on corner entry, I suppose).

He has complained about how the aero on his car was affected by another car quite a distance away from him. He was correctly identifying the problem, but he was also the only driver that complained about it, even though every driver had that situation to deal with.

Now he says tyre vibrations did him in at the 'ring. OK, what caused those vibrations in the first place? A defect in the tyre? All the tyres for all the teams were manufactured by the same company at the same time so I find this unlikely. More likely is that his lack of racecraft found him running on the dry parts too much and enevenly graining his tyres. It's also likely that he flat-spotted a tyre. Both of those are quite common and point to a deficit of racecraft.

[Hapankaalimies 0]

I don't know if someone has already said this but according to Jean Todt it really was Kimis own decision to drive one extra lap with dry tyres. He said: "we called both Ferraris in and only Massa came, It was for Kimi to decide".

Kimi has done this kind of last second mind changes in the past...