Alonso Demoted To Sixth In Hungary

[Garyl2k 0]

The team has been sharing that final qualifying lap attempts between drivers throughout the year. Hamilton decided he didn't want to play that way any more, so in effect was trying to get another shot at it. Ron and Alonso weren't happy with the attitude.

You are new here. My MS byline is not one of praise but of contempt. I hated MS's tactics, but respected his dedication and commitment to winning. To bad he was without ethics.

Oh sorry then I take that comment back I agree I hate cheating too.

I can agree that LH attitude (If the statements are true since I feel a lot is fabricated) was not cool at all, but we have to look at a wider picture here, Alonso's attitude this year has not been squeeky clean either, moaning about being in a british team with a british driver. That shows there is disturbance within the team right there. I mean why whould LH cause such a stink in the first place? Was something said before quali?

I feel we can't just blame finger on one single person here, unless we know the truth then its something we can have a debate about but there seems to be a lot of unproven theorys being thrown about from both corners of the ring.

[YHR 0]

Yes I'm happy to disagree! And I have admitted that we can't know for sure whether lies were told or not without seeing the private evidence the stewards were given. However the reason they were punished is because the stewards thought they were lying, so it annoys me when people keep saying the stewards are "inventing rules" and "butting in unnecessarily". I'm interested to see what happens in the appeal, but it looks to me as though there was a deliberate attempt to hold Hamilton up, and therefore McLaren and Alonso are lying.

Murray

The team has plan at the start of the day, In this particulair race it was Alonso's turn to post the final time of the day. The stewards have no control on how the team manages this aspect of qualifying. When the renegade Hamilton failed to follow the team plan they were forced to react. This whole thing was brought on by Hamilton's actions within the team, and as such the team should be allowed to handle the matter as it sees fit. I agree that Hamilton was blocked, but only because the team had no other way of holding him up. I think some off you are missing the seriousous of this. Ron Dennis must be absolutedly p**sed at Hamilton over this. So really the whole stewards reaction, although benefited Hamilton on the track, rubbed salt even further in the wound that Hamilton opened. For Hamiliton's sake it wuld have been better for the stewards to stay out of it. Now his actions(Although on the surface he comes out blameless) have actually really hurt the team.

[Blackmadonna 0]

The stewards didn't accept Fernandos explanation for those last 10 seconds he waited too long: that he was wondering about his tyres. Thats why he was sent back to 6th place.

You can read that in the official statement.

They could as well have accepted it, but didn't, and thats all what the thing actually is about.

Everything else is left open to pure speculation.

But whatever, the masses will find something else to fight about in lengthy internet-wars...just wait for the next races...

[YHR 0]

Oh sorry then I take that comment back I agree I hate cheating too.

I can agree that LH attitude (If the statements are true since I feel a lot is fabricated) was not cool at all, but we have to look at a wider picture here, Alonso's attitude this year has not been squeeky clean either, moaning about being in a british team with a british driver. That shows there is disturbance within the team right there. I mean why whould LH cause such a stink in the first place? Was something said before quali?

I feel we can't just blame finger on one single person here, unless we know the truth then its something we can have a debate about but there seems to be a lot of unproven theorys being thrown about from both corners of the ring.

Part of Alonso' frustration is that as a WDC he feels he should have been granted the Honor of the final qualifying lap at every race, Ron Dennis, said no. It is a fair fight and this honor will be shared. However Hamilton choose to ignore it this race, and that is why this is such a big thing for the team. Ron Dennis attempting to be fair and give Hamilton equal footing, only to have the kid tell him to p**s off.

[Garyl2k 0]

There is no doubt Alonso hung around in the pits, and stalled Hamiltons attempt at at disobeying team orders and allowed him the final time of the day that had already been granted to Alonso by the team principle.

What you fail to see is that in the interest of team "fairness" this honor rotates through the team race by race. In this race Hamiliton decided he didn't want to play like that any more, even though that at the previous race Alonso allowed Hamilton the honor. Only one guy can post the final time of the day and the team has been sharing this between the drivers until now.

McLaren have been around for a long, long time, they would have known that the Stewards would have taken action againts this, they are a very experienced team. It's all good and well stating that Lewis broke team orders but what Lewis did not do was to break "Racing Rules" which is stated very clearly. The stewards are more clued up on the rules then we are, its there job, this is not small time business that they are in its a multi billion dollar business.

The good old saying which should always be followed, two wrongs don't make a right, maybe McLaren should follow this if what you say is true?

[Max Mosley 2]

Murray

The team has plan at the start of the day, In this particulair race it was Alonso's turn to post the final time of the day. The stewards have no control on how the team manages this aspect of qualifying. When the renegade Hamilton failed to follow the team plan they were forced to react. This whole thing was brought on by Hamilton's actions within the team, and as such the team should be allowed to handle the matter as it sees fit. I agree that Hamilton was blocked, but only because the team had no other way of holding him up. I think some off you are missing the seriousous of this. Ron Dennis must be absolutedly p**sed at Hamilton over this. So really the whole stewards reaction, although benefited Hamilton on the track, rubbed salt even further in the wound that Hamilton opened. For Hamiliton's sake it wuld have been better for the stewards to stay out of it. Now his actions(Although on the surface he comes out blameless) have actually really hurt the team.

So you are saying that McLaren and Alonso were right to lie to the stewards?

[Garyl2k 0]

Part of Alonso' frustration is that as a WDC he feels he should have been granted the Honor of the final qualifying lap at every race, Ron Dennis, said no. It is a fair fight and this honor will be shared. However Hamilton choose to ignore it this race, and that is why this is such a big thing for the team. Ron Dennis attempting to be fair and give Hamilton equal footing, only to have the kid tell him to p**s off.

Again valid points but we are all missing a big chunk of the story here, why did Lewis disobey orders?

I think its no difference to when people first jumped in bashing Alonso for the pit stop and no taking any regarding on why it happend, same can be said here, most are all jumping in saying he did it out of greed and arragants.

I doubt we will ever find out why as RD as probably told him to keep shut from spilling the beans, RD is probably trying to build the team spirit back again (after his holidays) and to get things back to normal (Well, halfway normal atleast!)...

[NeoData 0]

You are naive if you think the Stewards are there to 'misunderstand' It is their job to understand and interpret all race situations. I find it incredible that you think the stewards can get it wrong in a sport worth Billions of $ and beamed all around the world -

You are wrong my friend

The fact that there is alot of money at stake does not mean that they dont make mistakes.

They are human and therefore they are prone to making mistakes.

It has nothing to do with beeing naive I prefer to stick to the facts.

The Stewards have not confirmed that any lies have been told and untill they do I will give McLaren the benifit of the doubt since you are innocent untill proven guilty.

You are either beeing presumptious which is your right or you have clear undisputable evidence we all would like to know about.

I am hoping for the last.

At Murray :

I aplologise for annoying you but I am extremely adamant that there is no rule that prohibits Alonso from doing what he did i have read the entire rulebook again and again there is nothing I can find that is applicable in this case.

This does not mean however that i doubt the integrity of the stewards.

Had the stewards only penalised McLaren one could atleast say they were upholding the rules because the behaviour of the drivers was damaging the sports credibility.

But based on the current rulebook Alonso did not deserve to be penalised for impeding his teammate.

The stewards could perhaps have penalised Alonso for unsportmanlike conduct or breaking the sporting code but for some strange reason they chose to penalise him for impeding his teammate during a pitstop which is beyond stupidity.

But we are going in circles so I suggest you do us both a favor and find some passage that proves you a right.

I miss the old days when Senna would jump out of his car and beat some crazy backmarker up for overtaking him .

Those were the days.

[NeoData 0]

The stewards didn't accept Fernandos explanation for those last 10 seconds he waited too long: that he was wondering about his tyres. Thats why he was sent back to 6th place.

You can read that in the official statement.

They could as well have accepted it, but didn't, and thats all what the thing actually is about.

Everything else is left open to pure speculation.

But whatever, the masses will find something else to fight about in lengthy internet-wars...just wait for the next races...

I actually find this amusing finaly we are talking about something other then spy scandal. Oops now i said it myself.

[YHR 0]

So you are saying that McLaren and Alonso were right to lie to the stewards?

Who says they lied. Different views of the same event do not constitute a lie. I think it is fair to say they did not justify this action in a way that satisfied the stewards, and they were penalized for it. I think we can all agree the team did not want Hamilton on the track, and because of Hamilton's action the team has been shown in negative light, further opening the wound.

The stewards actions are causing even more grief for Hamilton is my guess. Ron Dennis and now the team are being ridiculed. A fine mess to leave your employer in.

Either way you want to look at this, Hamilton's actions have caused extreme grief for McLaren.

At this point it is an academic exercise. The damage has been done and Hamilton caused it, end of story. If you want to satisfy yourself with your view of the events, be my guess. It won't change a thing in the McLaren garage.

[mikathegreat2 2]

BS!!

Jacques comes out and slates Hamilton in the run up to the Canadian GP and guess what....You take up the mantle and slate Lewis.

Coincidence huh

Not him again! What he said about JV was BS but what happened between Hamilton & team orders gave McLaren BS & us to talk about!

By looking at his sig line its very easy to see what way he sways towards.

"Win at all cost, cheat if you have to."

Its easy to see that Lewis wasnt going to ruine his Q3 quali by letting Alonso through and also put himself in danger of letting Kimi through too, the team should have seen this. But let's face it, what kind of "Champion" are you if you had to cheat to win? Actually, you are no champion if you believe cheating is the way to win...

Yet another Hamilton fan awaits the forums! Welcome & I completely agree with you!

[YHR 0]

Not him again! What he said about JV was BS but what happened between Hamilton & team orders gave McLaren BS & us to talk about!

Yet another Hamilton fan awaits the forums! Welcome & I completely agree with you!

????

[mikathegreat2 2]

????

???? Just saying the truth about JV.

[Oli 1]

I aplologise for annoying you but I am extremely adamant that there is no rule that prohibits Alonso from doing what he did i have read the entire rulebook again and again there is nothing I can find that is applicable in this case.

This does not mean however that i doubt the integrity of the stewards.

Had the stewards only penalised McLaren one could atleast say they were upholding the rules because the behaviour of the drivers was damaging the sports credibility.

But based on the current rulebook Alonso did not deserve to be penalised for impeding his teammate.

The stewards could perhaps have penalised Alonso for unsportmanlike conduct or breaking the sporting code but for some strange reason they chose to penalise him for impeding his teammate during a pitstop which is beyond stupidity.

Articles 31.6 and 31.7 are the rules under which Alonso was punished, I believe.

[Lure 0]

You are wrong of course!

You have to isolate the two from a sporting perspective. Lewis did not do anything that infringed the laws of F1, he simply refused to honour an inter team arrangement. Alonso, however, was deemed to have blocked Lewis by refusing to leave the pit when he had been motioned to do so by the lolipop and the team's chief mechanic. Blocking is a punishable offence in F1 hence the 5 place grid penalty - Alonso got off lightly in my opinion as MS got relegated to the back of the grid when he was deemed to have interfered with Alonso's lap.

It is very simple really

No it's not. Blocking happens on the track or even in pit lane when a car is moving. Alonso was in his actual pit bay with his crew. Tell me where it says he can't park his car there? Hamilton was not supposed to be there at all. It's a Mclaren issue and not for the stewards

[Oli 1]

No it's not. Blocking happens on the track or even in pit lane when a car is moving. Alonso was in his actual pit bay with his crew. Tell me where it says he can't park his car there? Hamilton was not supposed to be there at all. It's a Mclaren issue and not for the stewards

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards, stops unnecessarily on

the circuit or unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

Remove the subclause and you get:

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards,.......unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

It doesn't specify anything about where on the circuit (pit lane, track, stationary or otherwise) this might occur. It's carefully written so they can do what they like with it, as most of the FIA rules are.

[Lure 0]

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards, stops unnecessarily on

the circuit or unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

Remove the subclause and you get:

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards,.......unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

It doesn't specify anything about where on the circuit (pit lane, track, stationary or otherwise) this might occur. It's carefully written so they can do what they like with it, as most of the FIA rules are.

Yes but Alonso was in his actual bay. Surely he can sit there as long as he likes!!! Could Hamilton not just have moved on himself? He could have, as they were in their pit bay, he wasn't actually blocked at all he could have just turned his steering wheel and hit the gas. His team was not ready for him and he made the error.

I feel it is only Hamilton supporters who feel that the stewards invlovemnet was justified. It is clear that this decision was highly questionable and has given Hamilton a large points advantage in the WDC. It should have been Alonso and Hamilton on the front row fighting for the win and the WDC. How could you believe this was not the fair option?? I believe this was a Mclaren internal issue and the management of F1 had no place being involved. It is a british run sport and i feel they are favoring their british driver.

I support neither Mclaren, Hamilton or Alonso and was born in Britain. So i feel i have an objective view free of any favoritism. This is just how i see it.

F1 needs to clean up it's act and get clean and close racing.

[Max Mosley 2]

At Murray :

I aplologise for annoying you but I am extremely adamant that there is no rule that prohibits Alonso from doing what he did i have read the entire rulebook again and again there is nothing I can find that is applicable in this case.

This does not mean however that i doubt the integrity of the stewards.

Had the stewards only penalised McLaren one could atleast say they were upholding the rules because the behaviour of the drivers was damaging the sports credibility.

But based on the current rulebook Alonso did not deserve to be penalised for impeding his teammate.

The stewards could perhaps have penalised Alonso for unsportmanlike conduct or breaking the sporting code but for some strange reason they chose to penalise him for impeding his teammate during a pitstop which is beyond stupidity.

But we are going in circles so I suggest you do us both a favor and find some passage that proves you a right.

Who says they lied. Different views of the same event do not constitute a lie. I think it is fair to say they did not justify this action in a way that satisfied the stewards, and they were penalized for it.

The stewards said they weren't satisfied with the explanations offered. That means they think they were lied to.

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards, stops unnecessarily on

the circuit or unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

Remove the subclause and you get:

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards,.......unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

It doesn't specify anything about where on the circuit (pit lane, track, stationary or otherwise) this might occur. It's carefully written so they can do what they like with it, as most of the FIA rules are.

Yeah good post. Also they lied too. And in any case there are vague rules that can always be used, such as not bringing the sport into disrepute.

[Oli 1]

Yes but Alonso was in his actual bay. Surely he can sit there as long as he likes!!! Could Hamilton not just have moved on himself? He could have, as they were in their pit bay, he wasn't actually blocked at all he could have just turned his steering wheel and hit the gas. His team was not ready for him and he made the error.

I feel it is only Hamilton supporters who feel that the stewards invlovemnet was justified. It is clear that this decision was highly questionable and has given Hamilton a large points advantage in the WDC. It should have been Alonso and Hamilton on the front row fighting for the win and the WDC. How could you believe this was not the fair option?? I believe this was a Mclaren internal issue and the management of F1 had no place being involved. It is a british run sport and i feel they are favoring their british driver.

I support neither Mclaren, Hamilton or Alonso and was born in Britain. So i feel i have an objective view free of any favoritism. This is just how i see it.

F1 needs to clean up it's act and get clean and close racing.

Crucially, I don't think the stewards should have gotten involved, as I think it was detrimental to the race. But nonetheless the rulebook allows them to do this, and there is an article under which Alonso's infraction fell.

Had Lewis been in the box blocking Alonso the shoe would have been on the other foot, with Alonso's fans screaming outrage and Hamilton's fans defending him. That's driver loyalty for you. All I'm arguing is that it is not justifiable to say "there is no rule under which Alonso can be punished".

And FWIW, I'm a Raikkonen supporter born in Estonia.....

[Jem of the Shire 0]

It is a british run sport and i feel they are favoring their british driver.

What a stupid thing to say. People used to say FIA clearly favour Ferrari, now you're saying they favour Brits.

I believe the stewards made the decision, not Max Mosley, and who knows what nationality the stewards are.

By the way anyone who believes Alonso's bullcrap story about being told to wait in the pits, is clearly deluded.

[NeoData 0]

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards, stops unnecessarily on

the circuit or unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

Remove the subclause and you get:

"Any driver taking part in any practice session who, in the opinion of the stewards,.......unnecessarily impedes another driver shall be subject to the penalties referred to in Article

31.6."

It doesn't specify anything about where on the circuit (pit lane, track, stationary or otherwise) this might occur. It's carefully written so they can do what they like with it, as most of the FIA rules are.

I know about article 31.7 and 31.6 however......

Those articles only apply to the circuit for obvious reasons when this rule was written the FIA felt a car should be allowed to stop for a pitstop otherwise it would render the whole pitstop idea kinda pointless.

The racetrack the pitlane the pit entry and exit all combine together to form the circuit.

This article cannot be not applied to anything that happens in the pitbox or pitarea without raising some eyebrows.

At Murray.

Well that is one way of interperting it.

I choose to have a more open minded view.

You are right that when needed they seem to fall back upon vague rules but sometimes when doing so it actually seems to do more damage to the sport than not handing out a penalty for a change.

[YHR 0]

The stewards said they weren't satisfied with the explanations offered. That means they think they were lied to.

Seriously Murray that is your subjective view, which you are entitled too.

As we all can agree the F1 rule book can be massaged to give the stewards the right to do just about anything. So it is pointless arguing whether they had the right to do what they did. I've never really argued that point. They certainly did have to peel away much verbage to make it stick, but they did.

My view, one that is shared by many inside Formula 1, is that what are the stewards bothering themselves with this for????? They effectively took all the drama out of the race by sticking Alonso behind slightly slower but still competitive cars, and turned what could have been a barn burner into a snoozefest. As a fan of car racing I am disappointed by this, and equally disappointed by the degree Hamilton fans will go to over look the obvious, that being Ron Dennis himself being mad at Hamilton and not Alonso. Very strange?????

"Go Go GO Lewis Hamilton" Is about all that be discussed around here anymore.

[Max Mosley 2]

I know about article 31.7 and 31.6 however......

Those articles only apply to the circuit for obvious reasons when this rule was written the FIA felt a car should be allowed to stop for a pitstop otherwise it would render the whole pitstop idea kinda pointless.

The racetrack the pitlane the pit entry and exit all combine together to form the circuit.

This article cannot be not applied to anything that happens in the pitbox or pitarea without raising some eyebrows.

I think the rule is clear enough. Alonso was found guilty of "impeding" another driver. The rule can include the pit box - it's carefully worded.

At Murray.

Well that is one way of interperting it.

I choose to have a more open minded view.

You are right that when needed they seem to fall back upon vague rules but sometimes when doing so it actually seems to do more damage to the sport than not handing out a penalty for a change.

No the stewards were quite clear that they believed the explanations given didn't add up. There's no need to interpret much. What could be doubted is whether the stewards misunderstood something and so should have trusted McLaren and Alonso, but they definitely chose not to trust them. If the stewards think they're lying, then the stewards have no choice to but to penalise them.

About the disrepute thing, I think that's only true in Spain. Most people around the world think that Alonso held Lewis back. And to the average fan, that was too blatant. People on here can be more sophisticated, but it looked bad for one driver to block another.

Seriously Murray that is your subjective view, which you are entitled too.

No. You have said that Alonso/McLaren held up Lewis. Alonso/McLaren have denied this. Therefore either they lied, or you are wrong.

[NeoData 0]

I think the rule is clear enough. Alonso was found guilty of "impeding" another driver. The rule can include the pit box - it's carefully worded.

No the stewards were quite clear that they believed the explanations given didn't add up. There's no need to interpret much. What could be doubted is whether the stewards misunderstood something and so should have trusted McLaren and Alonso, but they definitely chose not to trust them. If the stewards think they're lying, then the stewards have no choice to but to penalise them.

About the disrepute thing, I think that's only true in Spain. Most people around the world think that Alonso held Lewis back. And to the average fan, that was too blatant. People on here can be more sophisticated, but it looked bad for one driver to block another.

No. You have said that Alonso/McLaren held up Lewis. Alonso/McLaren have denied this. Therefore either they lied, or you are wrong.

I think everyone here agrees they were guilty of holding up Lewis.

Where you and I differ is only in the conclusion we derive from the stewards verdict.

Basicly you keep saying they were punished because the stewards did not think the explanation giving was good enough. So they must have lied. The last bit beeing diffrent interpertation from what i read and that is what I am reffering to .

I keep saying they never stated McLaren lied so i will not use those words.

Did the stewards find them guilty? Yes

Did the Steward confirm they lied? No .

Now you may find my point of view naief but you could also say I am only sticking with what the stewards clearly stated in their press release. In no part of their press release did they use the any words that accuse McLaren of lying or misleading them and untill they do I will not accuse them of that either.

[YHR 0]

I think everyone here agrees they were guilty of holding up Lewis.

Where you and I differ is only in the way we formulate it.

Basicly you keep saying they were punished because the stewards did not think the explanation giving was good enough. So they must have lied. The last bit beeing diffrent interpertation from what i read and that is hat I meant with diffrent interpertation.

And I keep saying they never stated McLaren lied so i will not use those words.

Did the stewards find them guilty? Yes

Did the Steward confirm they lied? No .

Now you may find my point of view naief but you could also say I am only sticking with what the stewards clearly stated in their press release. In no part of their press release did they use the any words that accuse McLaren of lying or misleading them and untill they do I will not accuse them of that either.

Exactly

To say they were lied too is a subjective opinion on the facts presented.

Isn't it funny how the obvious fact the Ron Dennis is mad at Hamilton not Alonso, seems to be ignored by the Lewis supportors in all these discussions??? Very strange how they have pacified themselves with the Stewards response instead of the one that really matters, and that is Hamilton's status within the team??? .

I am more interested in how this has effected Hamiliton's status within the team. If anything the steward's support has compounded Hamiltons' problems as his actions and the teams reaction have now cost them real championship points for the team and Alonso. If the stewards would have kept there noses out of it,, it would have been an issue that would have had little consequence on the Team or Alonso. Ron, Alonso and Hamilton could have had their talk and dealt with things, with no real harm to Mclaren or Alonso.