Would You Hire Alonso?

[DOF_power 0]

>

^ "Nor do I believe this is a problem Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna or Gilles Villeneuve would ever have faced had any of them been in this situation."

Permit me to disagree.

Senna - made many mistakes when under pressure; vetoed Warwick at Lotus because as he said it there can't be 2 superstars at one team; was beaten by Prost at McLaren in 89, and also in 88 if we'd disregard the stupid 1/2 + 3 best out of 11 rule;

Gilles Villenuve - Hello Pironi;

Schumacher - learned from the Senna-Prost nonsense and was always no.1 at the team;

- all of them made mistakes when under pressure;

[Max Mosley 2]

Interesting article. DOF makes a fair point, but I do think Hughes was right to an extent: Alonso doesn't have the speed advantage that those 3 probably possessed over their rivals. Just mine and Hughes's opinions of course. But the article does seem a little wishful. If you're worried about being Jenson's team mate, you really would be scared of Kimi. I can't imagine Alonso ever partnering Kimi at Ferrari. It would be wonderful for us to watch, but even though imho Alonso is better, he would be beaten by Kimi in the same team.

Personally as you know, I don't think Alonso can handle a fast team mate. That's not too bad in itself, after all, Schumi (and at times Prost and Senna) didn't like the idea either (though I suspect he/they didn't mind as much). Problem is, Hamilton and Kimi are already ensconced in the two best teams. Both BMW drivers would be a tough challenge too. So if he wants to avoid very strong intra-team challenge, he has to head elsewhere. So where? Honda could potentially be fast in the future, but it's risky and JB is dangerous. Red Bull again could be fast, and DC's qualifying weakness might reassure Alonso, but they presumably (?) have a lower budget even than Honda. I can't see either of those teams really challenging for the top any time soon, and definitely not next year. So that leaves Renault - obviously his best bet (hence Flavio's hard bargaining).

Even discounting the latest spy scandal, Renault's budget is significantly lower than the other 3 top teams, and even there the rookies could be fast. Kova and NPJr are both much faster than Fisi, so it would be a different environment than before for Alonso, especially since he left, and since the McLaren episode. I wonder if Alonso's best days are behind him.

[DOF_power 0]

>

^ Well with all do respect, I find your ideas and Hughes pure B*.

Alonso's problem was that he didn't felt the team supported him in his bid to the title.

And that's a problem even the great Fagio had. And you couldn't say Fangio was slow cause his laps/victories/poles/race lead percentualy emabarassed both Senna and Schumacher.

[AleHop 0]

I wonder if Alonso's best days are behind him.

Probably Alonso's best days are still to come but Ferrari, McLaren-Mercedes and BMW are three very competitive teams. There are very little chance he can fight for the WDC against those three giants. Nevertheless F1 is very unpredictable and things could change surprisingly. Next year there will be many changes in the car that will affect the drivers very much. Who is going to get used to those changes quicker and better? Both driver&team will have to work really really hard, and I think next year will be very important a good and experienced tester because drivers will have to tell engineers exactly what they need. Alonso can be both a brilliant racer and an awesome tester. Ferrari will have Michael Schumacher for that purpose and they will have a big advantage. Next year will be very interesting from that point of view and drivers will have a little bigger chance during the race of showing who is best. Of course cars still will be very important but not so much as they were last year. And I am happy about that.

[Eric 0]

Alonso's best days are not behind him.

I think it would be great if he had a year off, spent some time enjoying life and Raquel. I feel a refreshed Alonso with a new fresh brain and a better attitude would be more welcome. But the year 2007 behind him, forget all that he was.

Of course, it might not go as well as it usually does...he might view his year off with angst that he lost out, and make him angrier.

Either way, a year off would be fun just because a new Alonso will emerge. And the new Alonso will win. Whether it is because he is angrier and motivated to prove the world wrong that he is a baby, or because he is happier and ready to be like the former Fred who realized the sport was merely that and had fun. Hopefully the latter.

And then he can come back in a Beamer and own Robert Kubica.

[Max Mosley 2]

>

^ Well with all do respect, I find your ideas and Hughes pure B*.

Sure. I would be worried if you felt otherwise.

Alonso's problem was that he didn't felt the team supported him in his bid to the title.

And that's a problem even the great Fagio had. And you couldn't say Fangio was slow cause his laps/victories/poles/race lead percentualy emabarassed both Senna and Schumacher.

So Alonso didn't feel supported? He wasn't feeling enough love? If that's all it was - a feeling - then I can rest my case. If you are instead saying he actually wasn't given a fair chance to race for the title, well I'd like to see the evidence. All the evidence I can think of points to the fact that McLaren gave equal cars, strategies etc to Alonso, even though they liked Hamilton more. Furthermore, even Renault say Alonso doesn't perform well when threatened by a team mate. I would also ask why McLaren liked Hamilton more.

Probably Alonso's best days are still to come but Ferrari, McLaren-Mercedes and BMW are three very competitive teams. There are very little chance he can fight for the WDC against those three giants. Nevertheless F1 is very unpredictable and things could change surprisingly. Next year there will be many changes in the car that will affect the drivers very much. Who is going to get used to those changes quicker and better? Both driver&team will have to work really really hard, and I think next year will be very important a good and experienced tester because drivers will have to tell engineers exactly what they need. Alonso can be both a brilliant racer and an awesome tester. Ferrari will have Michael Schumacher for that purpose and they will have a big advantage. Next year will be very interesting from that point of view and drivers will have a little bigger chance during the race of showing who is best. Of course cars still will be very important but not so much as they were last year. And I am happy about that.

I agree. But looking ahead, I see Alonso racing for at least 2 years in a middling Renault while others win championships. By which point, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg, Kova, Piquet Jr and possibly Sutil will all have come into their own, and Kimi of course will be going strong at Ferrari. With Nick, Jenson and Felipe filling teams up with fast team mates it makes it even harder for him, imho. Of course this is speculation, but I really can see Alonso struggling in the future, especially if he doesn't trounce Piquet Jr.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I would also ask why McLaren liked Hamilton more.

That is a good question. I think initially because of the historic association with Ron and as he showed with Mika, he does form attachments to drivers that last. But latterly I think as Alonso became more emotional, the increasing press activity and FIA involvement inevitably would put Ron's back up, especially when he would be getting grief from Mercedes and the sponsors who would not want all that bad publiity. If the alleged blackmailing attempt did actually take place, I would imagine that being the final straw.

I agree. But looking ahead, I see Alonso racing for at least 2 years in a middling Renault while others win championships. By which point, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg, Kova, Piquet Jr and possibly Sutil will all have come into their own, and Kimi of course will be going strong at Ferrari. With Nick, Jenson and Felipe filling teams up with fast team mates it makes it even harder for him, imho. Of course this is speculation, but I really can see Alonso struggling in the future, especially if he doesn't trounce Piquet Jr.

I agree, except I have a sneaking suspicion that Alonso will not drive in 2008. Renault's insistance upon a 3 year contract may be unpalatable for Alonso and I believe he will end up sitting out 2008 as he has no other options. He's backed himself into a corner here as my guess is that whilst he is fast, etc, he will be seen by teams and sponsors as being expensive and a lot of trouble (currently). Toyota have already hinted that he was asking for too much and it may be that he has over-inflated his value. Smart move would be either to have gone to Renault on their terms and do a "Schui" or stay on in McLaren, but swallow his pride and try to make it work. With the first option would allow time for him to develop the car (albeit this would still be challenging as he would have fast team mates) the second, whilst difficult (maybe even impossible) would have allowed him to have a chance at the title and demonstrated that actually he is OK. Whatever happens it will be a test of his capabilities.

[Max Mosley 2]

That is a good question. I think initially because of the historic association with Ron and as he showed with Mika, he does form attachments to drivers that last. But latterly I think as Alonso became more emotional, the increasing press activity and FIA involvement inevitably would put Ron's back up, especially when he would be getting grief from Mercedes and the sponsors who would not want all that bad publiity. If the alleged blackmailing attempt did actually take place, I would imagine that being the final straw.

Yep, I think that covers it perfectly.

I agree, except I have a sneaking suspicion that Alonso will not drive in 2008. Renault's insistance upon a 3 year contract may be unpalatable for Alonso and I believe he will end up sitting out 2008 as he has no other options. He's backed himself into a corner here as my guess is that whilst he is fast, etc, he will be seen by teams and sponsors as being expensive and a lot of trouble (currently). Toyota have already hinted that he was asking for too much and it may be that he has over-inflated his value. Smart move would be either to have gone to Renault on their terms and do a "Schui" or stay on in McLaren, but swallow his pride and try to make it work. With the first option would allow time for him to develop the car (albeit this would still be challenging as he would have fast team mates) the second, whilst difficult (maybe even impossible) would have allowed him to have a chance at the title and demonstrated that actually he is OK. Whatever happens it will be a test of his capabilities.

Yeah, perhaps you're right and he won't race next year. Even then though, as you suggest, his options may still not look that rosy. McLaren will obviously still be off limits. Ferrari and BMW become possibilities, but I really can't see him going to Ferrari. They already have Kimi, and would almost certainly have to drop him for Alonso, which seems unlikely to me, especially if he has another strong season in '08, which is likely. So sitting out a year basically means waiting for BMW, and there is a chance with them. But still, they haven't seemed overly eager to sign him long term, and Robert Kubica with 2.5 years experience is going to be a very competitive team mate (and popular with the team!), which imho will worry Alonso and BMW, and BMW already have a driver with good technical ability in Nick. Nevertheless, going to Renault probably isn't very appealing either. There just aren't that many good options in F1. When you have a seat in a top team, you need to guard it carefully... especially with so many rising stars.

[AleHop 0]

triple post

[AleHop 0]

double post

[AleHop 0]

Furthermore, even Renault say Alonso doesn't perform well when threatened by a team mate.

Ok, enough is enough. When they have seen Alonso in bad position when fighting against a team mate. You are pathetic every single time you speak about Alonso. Come on, tell me WHEN you have seen Alonso bad performing at Renault against his team mate.

When Alonso left them they suddenly fell in the middle of the pack. They saw McLaren on top and Alonso had won his second race at McLaren-Mercedes. What the fvck are they supposed to say? Renault was in trouble and the only thing they could say was a bad thing about Alonso.

It is your fantasy that the youngest 2xWDC have been seen in trouble against his team mate. The only team mate he have had any trouble with is Hamilton but not only because he is very good on track. There were many variables involved on all those issues Alonso had last year at McLaren.

I would also ask why McLaren liked Hamilton more.

Ha, ha, ha... You are even more pathetic on that. The answer could be at Monaco when Hamilton complained against the team and questioned Alonso's win. Ron Dennis supported Hamilton in a disgusting way. He waited a couple of weeks for an explanation but it never happened.

Most of you were expecting Alonso to make things easier for Hamilton, Dennis and McLaren but he tryed to fvck them instead. And thank god he did it. Why don't you talk about Hungary, how can you impede a driver when the pit lane is free to go? Last year was infamous because of things like that. Japan? Crane?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Come on, tell me WHEN you have seen Alonso bad performing at Renault against his team mate.

That's because until he went to McLaren he never had a team-mate of comparable performance.

When Alonso left them they suddenly fell in the middle of the pack.

Flav admitted that they were focusing so much on the WDC in 2006 that 2007 car development had taken a back seat. If this was not the case and if Alonso's development skills are as good as has been claimed, you would expect the 2007 Renault to be on par or better than the 2006 car, given that they are developed a year ahead and Alonso would have had an input into this.

I do think that Renault will come back stronger; historically they have always excelled in F1 - I see 2007 as being a bit of a "blip". Whether they are going to be at the level of McLaren or Ferrari, that is another matter and I feel that BMW in 2008 will give all the top teams a challenge.

[AleHop 0]

That's because until he went to McLaren he never had a team-mate of comparable performance.

Ok, imagine I admit that all his team mates has been crap during his whole F1 adventure, how in hell can someone say he's in trouble when he has to face a team mate as fast or faster than him? Is it not something we could say about any driver in the fifty something years of F1? Is it not easier to have your rivals outside your own team? For god sake, what are we talking about?

Flav admitted that they were focusing so much on the WDC in 2006 that 2007 car development had taken a back seat. If this was not the case and if Alonso's development skills are as good as has been claimed, you would expect the 2007 Renault to be on par or better than the 2006 car, given that they are developed a year ahead and Alonso would have had an input into this.

I am not saying it was a consequence of Alonso leaving what made them lose competitiveness. But that was a fact and they still had to see Alonso winning his second race at McLaren after an empty year for them, and that was a fact too. Fernando Alonso didn't work on Renault's 2007 car. It was revealed many times during the 2006 season, MANY MANY TIMES. And what's more, It would have been outrageous, stupid and absurd involving him on 2007 car development, a car he was not going to drive.

Alonso might not be as good as Schumacher, as fast as Senna or as clever as Prost but most of you are always treating him like a poor lucky incompetent driver. Then you always claim you have post somewhere he is a very good driver. What's your problem with him? Do you all sleep well? Do you face frustration in your private life and you find relief talking BS about him? It is fine then.

[Jean Todt 4]

meh! feck it!!

same old crap arguments about Who the fak is Nando?

nando! nando! Who the fak is Nando?

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

For god sake, what are we talking about?

Haven't a clue

And what's more, It would have been outrageous, stupid and absurd involving him on 2007 car development, a car he was not going to drive.

Of course, but the 2007 car was an evolution of the 2006 car - I find it hard to believe that it was all brand new - of course it wasn't. Therefore Alonso played a role in its development, even if it was small. Actually I don't put Renault's drop-off in performance in 2007 down to Alonso's move, I think it is more that Renault did not prioritise effectively and put enough effort into 2007 development - maybe they should have got Alonso more involved in the 2007 car development programme before he left???

Alonso might not be as good as Schumacher, as fast as Senna or as clever as Prost but most of you are always treating him like a poor lucky incompetent driver. Then you always claim you have post somewhere he is a very good driver. What's your problem with him? Do you all sleep well? Do you face frustration in your private life and you find relief talking BS about him? It is fine then.

As I have said before I actually was supporting Alonso in 2005 and 2006. Think he deserved the 2x WDCs. Ace driver. However, 2007 was a black year for Alonso and McLaren, I believe both came out of this year tarnished. I would not point the finger of blame solely at McLaren, but agree that they managed Alonso badly. What has turned me off Alonso in 2007 was his moodiness, childish behaviour and if the rumours about blackmail are true, that is a shocking thing to do. I do actually think all this is a shame and this is probably why I am more anti-Alonso than I might be normally.

But then maybe we expect too much from drivers. As I have said in other postings I respect Schumacher (Michael, naturally ) for his talent, speed and dedication. However I can't be a fan as the many cheating/parking/crashing episodes have tarnished his reputation in my eyes.

But then he, like Alonso is only human and Senna and Prost had their moments too.

[AleHop 0]

meh! feck it!!

same old crap arguments about Who the fak is Nando?

nando! nando! Who the fak is Nando?

my answer my answer

Nando is the evil Red Banana.

Hamilton is the authentic banana .

Oh, sorry he's a carrot.

[Rainmaster 7]

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates, and he obviously feels he should have No.1 status in the team, in fact he feels like he should be treated as more than just a driver. If he had done some research of Mclaren, he would realise neither of those things are the norm.

Alonso didn't struggle at Renault because Fisi is only good on occasion, and needs to be constantly reassured in the team and while driving (look at Renault's radio messages) because he lacks confidence. Alonso is an exceptional driver in every regard, except for when he is pushed by his team-mate, then he starts to bitch, we saw this in 2006 when Fisi beat him in one race and he started complaining that Renault weren't supporting him. Renault tolerated this because they knew that Alonso could deliver the results they wanted. I believe Dennis did mismanage Alonso, he tried to treat him like he treated Hamilton, but that was the wrong approach as Fernado wanted to be treated like an equal, he didn't want a father figure.

[Eric 0]

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates, and he obviously feels he should have No.1 status in the team, in fact he feels like he should be treated as more than just a driver. If he had done some research of Mclaren, he would realise neither of those things are the norm.

Alonso didn't struggle at Renault because Fisi is only good on occasion, and needs to be constantly reassured in the team and while driving (look at Renault's radio messages) because he lacks confidence. Alonso is an exceptional driver in every regard, except for when he is pushed by his team-mate, then he starts to bitch, we saw this in 2006 when Fisi beat him in one race and he started complaining that Renault weren't supporting him. Renault tolerated this because they knew that Alonso could deliver the results they wanted. I believe Dennis did mismanage Alonso, he tried to treat him like he treated Hamilton, but that was the wrong approach as Fernando wanted to be treated like an equal, he didn't want a father figure.

I agree. I just don't think Fernando and Ronald had team chemistry. I think it became obvious to Ronald that Lewis was more marketable than Fernando, and therefore erased any ideas of letting Fernando beat Lewis. I think it triggered inequality, and though there is no sufficient proof there was inequality, I still feel as if Lewis had some favoritism. Fernando got into a living Hell, time for his fans to move on, and his haters, because he has to move on himself, and so does his team.

I think Nando's his own worst enemy most of the time, and ultimately, he made the wrong choice. I'm not sure on this one, but I do recall Alonso had "special treatment" in power of who is teammate would be, and he made the mistake. None of this would've happened with Pedro...

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I just don't think Fernando and Ronald had team chemistry.

Actually, Eric you are wrong. They had chemistry, like sodium in a bowl of water or nitric acid poured onto cotton wool

[Rainmaster 7]

I agree. I just don't think Fernando and Ronald had team chemistry. I think it became obvious to Ronald that Lewis was more marketable than Fernando, and therefore erased any ideas of letting Fernando beat Lewis. I think it triggered inequality, and though there is no sufficient proof there was inequality, I still feel as if Lewis had some favoritism. Fernando got into a living Hell, time for his fans to move on, and his haters, because he has to move on himself, and so does his team.

I think Nando's his own worst enemy most of the time, and ultimately, he made the wrong choice. I'm not sure on this one, but I do recall Alonso had "special treatment" in power of who is teammate would be, and he made the mistake. None of this would've happened with Pedro...

Yep Fernando is often his own worst enemy, and there probably were some elements of favouritism, not to the extent some would make out but still...although we'll never know whether it was justified (did Alonso threaten Dennis?). Yeah none of it would of happened with 'just missed the podium Pedro'. Anyway I agree we should all move on, especially Alonso, he needs to really.

[AleHop 0]

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates, and he obviously feels he should have No.1 status in the team, in fact he feels like he should be treated as more than just a driver. If he had done some research of Mclaren, he would realise neither of those things are the norm.

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates... You could say just that same thing about every single F1 driver. I could say that about Hamilton or I could say he cracks under pressure. You could find similar things about Kimi, Massa, etc... Senna, Prost, Schumacher, etc...

Alonso didn't struggle at Renault because Fisi is only good on occasion, and needs to be constantly reassured in the team and while driving (look at Renault's radio messages) because he lacks confidence.

Ok, he didn't struggle at Renault but you can say he does struggle against fast team-mates because he finished paired with Hamilton even after an infamous penalty at Hungary... Oh well, I see.

Alonso is an exceptional driver in every regard...

We don't know if he is an exceptional driver. You try to make good things too good and bad things too bad. How long it took Michael Schumacher to become an exceptional driver even after he had won two WDC at Benetton one with Renault and one with Ford? How long it took him win his third title?

except for when he is pushed by his team-mate, then he starts to bitch, we saw this in 2006 when Fisi beat him in one race and he started complaining that Renault weren't supporting him.

He didn't complain about Fisi, it was about the team and he was looking for a positive answer. That was totally diferent in regard to what has happened last season at McLaren. I wish Alonso had got in respect to Hamilton that same treatment Fisi got at Renault in respect to Alonso.

Renault tolerated this because they knew that Alonso could deliver the results they wanted. I believe Dennis did mismanage Alonso, he tried to treat him like he treated Hamilton, but that was the wrong approach as Fernado wanted to be treated like an equal, he didn't want a father figure.

They tolerated this because it was in regar to the lack of concentration in the team and they knew he was right.

[Eric 0]

Actually, Eric you are wrong. They had chemistry, like sodium in a bowl of water or nitric acid poured onto cotton wool

Good old Mr. Talking Salami.

[Eric 0]

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates... You could say just that same thing about every single F1 driver. I could say that about Hamilton or I could say he cracks under pressure. You could find similar things about Kimi, Massa, etc... Senna, Prost, Schumacher, etc...

I agree with AleHop.

Senna and Prost is a classic example of why equality is fun for fans, s##t for teams.

Kimi and Massa kind of killed eachother, too, to the point Ferrari just had to say "**** it, Kimi you're number one, Massa you're number two"...and they magically roared to the WDC (and the WCC, which I'm not counting).

But inequality makes it boring. See Schumacher and Barrichello yawnfest. I would love to have seen them boys get cut loose and see who really was number one. Probably Schumi, more times than not, but I still feel Barrichello had a little more in him than he got to show...

[Quiet One 15]

"Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates"

"I don't think Alonso can handle a fast team mate"

"he can't take the heat with a competitive teammate"

Amazing that a forum with so many science-oriented persons could make a general statement based on one case (Lewis, as admitted by everybody). According to this theory, Nando could cope against the other teammates because they weren't "fast". Of course, the same applies to every other team mate Nando had or will have in his life.

Me, not being a scientist myself, can come up with similar "obvious" deductions based on the same premise: "He couldn't handle Lewis". The proofs are equally irrefutable

1) Alonso is a racist: "Alonso can't handle black teammates. Every time he had a black team mate, he had problems"

2) "Alonso can't handle 22 years old team mates. Every time he had a 22 years old team mate he had problems"

3) Alonso is allergic to bananas: "Every time he had a team mate that eats bananas, he had problems"

Go ahead, try it.

[Rainmaster 7]

Alonso does struggle against fast team-mates... You could say just that same thing about every single F1 driver. I could say that about Hamilton or I could say he cracks under pressure. You could find similar things about Kimi, Massa, etc... Senna, Prost, Schumacher, etc...

No, some drivers deal with fast team mates better than others, it's to do with their personality and self belief. Alonso likes to feel special in a team, needs to feel he is by far the best. Kimi does not, for example. Yes every driver has flaws, this is one of Alonso's.

Ok, he didn't struggle at Renault but you can say he does struggle against fast team-mates because he finished paired with Hamilton even after an infamous penalty at Hungary... Oh well, I see.

Nice twist to it, but I'm not taking about what he did, but what he could of done, if he was driving at his very best he never would of made so many mistakes (Canada mostly) and would of beaten Hamilton.

We don't know if he is an exceptional driver. You try to make good things too good and bad things too bad. How long it took Michael Schumacher to become an exceptional driver even after he had won two WDC at Benetton one with Renault and one with Ford? How long it took him win his third title?

OK he's a crap driver

He is a double world champion who won titles in cars that were the best, but weren't dominant, he also withstood season long pressure from a certain Schumacher (not Ralf) so he is an exceptional driver. But yeah he is no Senna, Prost or Schumacher.

He didn't complain about Fisi, it was about the team and he was looking for a positive answer. That was totally diferent in regard to what has happened last season at McLaren. I wish Alonso had got in respect to Hamilton that same treatment Fisi got at Renault in respect to Alonso.

His reaction to being beaten by Fisi at Indy 06' was a torrent of abuse over the radio to the team which had given him title winning car the previous year, and another potential one that year, would Kimi/Massa/Schumacher do that?

They tolerated this because it was in regar to the lack of concentration in the team and they knew he was right.

Meh, it was because they knew he was valuable to them.

Anyway I'm not dissing Alonso here, I'm just pointing out one of his (few) flaws.