Minchia!

Us Energy Strategy

55 posts in this topic


Same sort of ideas are being postulated here in Kiwiland - the supposed "Green & Pure" land.

Problem with our 100% Pure tagline, is that we gotta then be percieved as doing something to keep it that way, so whilst 90% of countries don't sign up to Kyoto, we do. So because of that we are being charged:

An extra 25c per litre of fuel (thats about 75US cents per gallon)

Increased charges on electricity bills (when 80% of our power is hydro)

Farmers being taxed a "fart"-tax to offset pollution of methane gases from cows and sheep

Planting of renewable resources (ie pine trees) suspended until a carbon credit scheme is set up so that companies can trade literally thin air (for $2500NZD a pop...whatever a "pop" is)

The problem with being green is that it costs thousands more than not being green. Even over in Aussie, Peter Garret (former lead singer of Midnight Oil) and now the Environment Minister, whom pushed for plastic bags to be removed from shops and into eco-bags (ie cotton bags) said he "got it wrong" on the true cost of implementing the scheme.

Hybrid cars - what a joke - there is more carbon burnt making those cars than a normal car, and then at the end of the life cycle, what is one to do with the batteries? They are underpowered, and even emit more greenhouse gases than some of the new Euro spec diesel cars coming onto the market through Peugoet and Renault, to name but two companies.

Diesel is less refined, but technology as it is today, there are less baddies coming out the exhaust pipe - and the bonus is, that when fossil fuel does run out, a diesel will run on almost any type of fuel-oil - even coal dust! So there is no need to replace the entire worlds car stocks of petrol cars into battery cars.

The true answer is hydrogen power. F hybrid. Hydrogen from water...split the hydrogen from the oxygen, use the hydrogen to fire the motor, squirt water out the exhaust where it evaporates then condenses, rains, gets caught in a reservoir and is used again in the car - a semi-renewable resource. Damn - if some bright spark can make it so that the exhaust emissions are captured in the correct way then they can be recycled on board the vehicle itself, and then you have an unlimited supply of power - Just top up the tanks from time to time.

But all the while, its the big polluters of the world that will hardly pay - it will be ma and pa average household that will pay for it in increased fuel, food, and consumable costs.

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The United States government sucks.

I'm proud to be an American. But I'm also embarrassed by the fact everyone else thinks of us as burger-eating, cheap p**s-drinking, tank-driving people who are irresponsible members of the global community. Because in reality, we are.

I will never, and I mean never, have a car that I drive regularly that gets less than 33 mpg. Never.

I ride the train. Less money I spend at Sunoco, the better.

The fact is, people who drive large motor vehicles should pay heavy taxes. And the tax money should be used to research and implement alternative fuel soruces. End of story.

If you drive a Toyota Prius, you don't pay a tax. If you drive a Honda Pilot, you pay a pretty big tax. If you drive a Chevrolet Tahoe, you pay a massive tax. If you drive a Ford Super Duty, you get shot.

When did the pickup truck become a family vehicle? When did an SUV need to seat 9...9 morbidly obese, 8-foot tall adults? Why do car companies even make V8s and V6s? There's no practical use for a beefed up engine.

Why do people neglect the fact that global warming exists and that the economy is in recession? Sadly, we're a consumer-based economy. We buy stuff. But the higher the price of gas gets, the less "stuff" we buy. The less stuff we buy, the worse off the economy is. And it hurts the rest of the world, who make their money trying to sell consumer goods to us.

Not saying that's the only reason the economy sucks, but it's part of it. Don't get me started on people who take out mortgages they can't pay. I learned about that when I was 10 ****ing years old.

I feel like I am surrounded by idiots a lot of the time. And those idiots happen to get political power.

It'd be so easy to solve our issues. Change exists. Change is coming rapidly. Why the US needs to neglect that change is beyond me, and it p**ses me off.

America is so far behind. Look at our car companies. The Pontiac Vibe, a shrinky dink little baby car, gets 32 hwy mpg. A Toyota Camry, a mid-size sedan, gets 34 hwy mpg (with a 4-cylinder). Ouch. That hurts.

Unless you have a commercial reason to own a large vehicle, you should pay heavily for it. And if you have 2837498235 kids and need a huge car for them, teach yourself about condoms and birth control. And then sell the kids on eBay.

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three words:

A

Men,

Brother!

What ever our other differences in opinions may be, we are on the EXACT same page when it comes to your above post!

Edited by Minchia!

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The true answer is hydrogen power. F hybrid. Hydrogen from water...split the hydrogen from the oxygen, use the hydrogen to fire the motor, squirt water out the exhaust where it evaporates then condenses, rains, gets caught in a reservoir and is used again in the car - a semi-renewable resource. Damn - if some bright spark can make it so that the exhaust emissions are captured in the correct way then they can be recycled on board the vehicle itself, and then you have an unlimited supply of power - Just top up the tanks from time to time.

Aye that would be a very nice idea... But how can they charge you for water??? Your out to kill a whole multi billion dollar industry... The OIL MAFIA would kill anyone who even thinks of inventing stuff like that.... Scientists are trying but the size of storing Hydrogen is too huge and Hydrogen being a colorless and oderless gas is very hard to detect when it's leaking and thus if it mixes with any chemical compound would/can cause huge problems...

Abt America, First America needs to get into a decent economy state which IMO will take a few years, after that they need to sign the kyoto protocol and follow it...

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Interesting piece ... It's a shame that it seems to be rife with Obama-ism.

I don't want to get too much into US politics, here, but, remember: this is that land that happily supports and encourages E-85 over bio-diesel ... (Didja know that here in Kommiefornia, where there's not an E85 pump within 500+ miles, you can get rebate/discount when you buy a "dual-tuned" car?)

I've said it before, in many places, including TF1; I'll undoubtedly be screaming it until they cremate me ... It's not about actually doing anything: it's about appearing to do something.

Fark 'em all. :furious:

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Get rid of Priuses and Ethanol.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/e....asp?NewsID=188

^The Prius does more damage environmentally than the Hummer.

It takes a craplod of Corn to make a gallon of ethanol. That's a waste of food.

Make it from sugarcane. There's too many diabetics in the world anyway.

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Well ... To be purely pedantic. If it's all-electric, it's a motor, but whatever ...

What about the batteries?

You all know that rechargeable batteries have a limited number of charge-discharge cycles before they "die", right?

You all know that they're toxic waste when they have to be replaced, right? (BTW, 'Yota sez batteries in their Hybrids need to be replaced every ~8 to 10k miles ...)

So ... Which is worse? 200lbs (100kg) toxic waste every 8k miles? Plus the gas that the car burns over that time?

Edit: (I suppose I should point out two additional items: Hybrids are only more efficient than "standard" engines in "around town" or what the U.S. EPA calls "city driving". In "Highway Driving" they are, on average, only 1 mpg better ... 2) The average U.S. driver puts 15 thousand miles on their car per year ... That's an average of 1.5 batteries...)

Yeah. Thought so.

Edited by Yoda McFly

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Aye that would be a very nice idea... But how can they charge you for water??? Your out to kill a whole multi billion dollar industry... The OIL MAFIA would kill anyone who even thinks of inventing stuff like that.... Scientists are trying but the size of storing Hydrogen is too huge and Hydrogen being a colorless and oderless gas is very hard to detect when it's leaking and thus if it mixes with any chemical compound would/can cause huge problems...

Abt America, First America needs to get into a decent economy state which IMO will take a few years, after that they need to sign the kyoto protocol and follow it...

They can't...at least not that we think they can...but many ecologists predict that if the wars of today are fought over oil, then the wars of tomorrow will be fought over water.

I guess, since most of the hydrogen powered ideas are already owned by the oil companies, that there will be a special additive (kinda like the Colonels secret herbs and spices) that they will put into the water to address the "leaking-pipe-syndrome" and thus the water will have to be bought from a pump to make the car work.

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The United States government sucks.

I'm proud to be an American. But I'm also embarrassed by the fact everyone else thinks of us as burger-eating, cheap p**s-drinking, tank-driving people who are irresponsible members of the global community. Because in reality, we are.

I will never, and I mean never, have a car that I drive regularly that gets less than 33 mpg. Never.

I ride the train. Less money I spend at Sunoco, the better.

The fact is, people who drive large motor vehicles should pay heavy taxes. And the tax money should be used to research and implement alternative fuel soruces. End of story.

If you drive a Toyota Prius, you don't pay a tax. If you drive a Honda Pilot, you pay a pretty big tax. If you drive a Chevrolet Tahoe, you pay a massive tax. If you drive a Ford Super Duty, you get shot.

When did the pickup truck become a family vehicle? When did an SUV need to seat 9...9 morbidly obese, 8-foot tall adults? Why do car companies even make V8s and V6s? There's no practical use for a beefed up engine.

Why do people neglect the fact that global warming exists and that the economy is in recession? Sadly, we're a consumer-based economy. We buy stuff. But the higher the price of gas gets, the less "stuff" we buy. The less stuff we buy, the worse off the economy is. And it hurts the rest of the world, who make their money trying to sell consumer goods to us.

Not saying that's the only reason the economy sucks, but it's part of it. Don't get me started on people who take out mortgages they can't pay. I learned about that when I was 10 ****ing years old.

I feel like I am surrounded by idiots a lot of the time. And those idiots happen to get political power.

It'd be so easy to solve our issues. Change exists. Change is coming rapidly. Why the US needs to neglect that change is beyond me, and it p**ses me off.

America is so far behind. Look at our car companies. The Pontiac Vibe, a shrinky dink little baby car, gets 32 hwy mpg. A Toyota Camry, a mid-size sedan, gets 34 hwy mpg (with a 4-cylinder). Ouch. That hurts.

Unless you have a commercial reason to own a large vehicle, you should pay heavily for it. And if you have 2837498235 kids and need a huge car for them, teach yourself about condoms and birth control. And then sell the kids on eBay.

It may seem like I'm picking on you lately, but there is a very good reason for v8's. Ever tried to tow a livestock trailer with a 4 banger civic? Your probably not gonna get very far before you blow up. Granted a diesel does a better job but gas gets the job done, and well.

EDIT: Another thing, the earth is in a warming trend, but that doesn't mean that "Global Warming" aka "Climate Shift" aka "We're all fizzirked unless you listen to me and do everything I say bwahahaha.. erm... I mean... Be more responsible" is real. I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea to pollute less, but do some reading. The earth goes through phases. You remember learning about the ice ages, yes? Unless I'm mistaken we weren't all out driving our big suv's then. Unless those Woolly Mammoths had some hella awesome trucks.

Edited by james

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We're going through a fun stage of global warming, or as I like to call it, Spring.

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For me, the whole carbon foot print / global warming thing is secondary. I look at hybrid cars as a temporary thing, a necessary step in the technological evolution of transportation. My concern at this point is to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. I do not like the fact that our enemies supply us with our life blood. It is a ludicrous relationship. Whatever it takes for the US (and the rest of the world for that matter) to find alternative energy sources, regardless of the efficiency, we should persue it.

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Humans are dangerous. We all should know that.

We only see one picture at a time, the one someone decides to put in front of us. Is clean/recyclable energy the solution or it might be a bigger problem for us? What would we do if we had such an energy source? Don't you think we would damage Planet Earth more and more and more?

We could do a lot of good things with that clean and never ending energy but we would have to change our minds. We should change our life goals or we could quickly get into much much worse troubles soon. Are we prepared for such a change? No, I'm afraid. We are selfish and greedy.

One option might be hydrogen but if you want to split water into hydrogen and oxygen you need energy, then you have to store the hydrogen... Future will tell whether it is a good solution or not, I hope the solution is not imposed by self-interest of corporations or politicians.

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For me, the whole carbon foot print / global warming thing is secondary. I look at hybrid cars as a temporary thing, a necessary step in the technological evolution of transportation. My concern at this point is to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. I do not like the fact that our enemies supply us with our life blood. It is a ludicrous relationship. Whatever it takes for the US (and the rest of the world for that matter) to find alternative energy sources, regardless of the efficiency, we should persue it.

I completely agree on that.

People complain about how US rules the world but I hope we never see some OPEC countries ruling it.

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It may seem like I'm picking on you lately, but there is a very good reason for v8's. Ever tried to tow a livestock trailer with a 4 banger civic? Your probably not gonna get very far before you blow up. Granted a diesel does a better job but gas gets the job done, and well.

EDIT: Another thing, the earth is in a warming trend, but that doesn't mean that "Global Warming" aka "Climate Shift" aka "We're all fizzirked unless you listen to me and do everything I say bwahahaha.. erm... I mean... Be more responsible" is real. I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea to pollute less, but do some reading. The earth goes through phases. You remember learning about the ice ages, yes? Unless I'm mistaken we weren't all out driving our big suv's then. Unless those Woolly Mammoths had some hella awesome trucks.

Sorry if I didn't mention it in my last post, I might not've, but I've stated in other posts that if you have a commercial reason (farming counts), you can own a big vehicle and not have to pay the huge a## taxes. I might not have made that clear, sorry.

And the global warming thing, I don't believe it. I want to get rid of fossil fuel because it's killing our economy, not because I care about emissions. I still believe that it is a NATURAL cylce caused by natural s##t, and the cycle part means the temperature will come back down eventually. But I do care from a financial standpoint.

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What if it temp does not come back down? What if desertification process continue and the whole ecosystem gets ****ed up like 90% of scientists say? (And the other 10% is composed of a 9% of paid Exxon scientists and 1% of crazy guys who think this is all due to midget aliens)

What will USA and all you guys do? Tell everybody else: "Wow, you guys were right, who would have guessed?" and die?

Americans have been exposed too much to "whoever cares for the enviroment is a pussy" and now they all think saying "even if we have no proof, it is probably just a natural thing that all species are facing extinction, that deserts are growing everywhere, that oceans are losing oxygen at alarming rates, that the north pole has no more ice" because that's the macho thing to do.

Of course, admitting the enviroment is under some huge danger we cannot even start to comprehend how to handle hurts too much.

Sorry, but we are killing ourselves, and the rest of the living things, and nobody cares, because it would mean being a "tree hugger" or "one of those darn commie faggot green lovers"

It is all really kind of irritating so forgive my bitterness.

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They can't...at least not that we think they can...but many ecologists predict that if the wars of today are fought over oil, then the wars of tomorrow will be fought over water.

I guess, since most of the hydrogen powered ideas are already owned by the oil companies, that there will be a special additive (kinda like the Colonels secret herbs and spices) that they will put into the water to address the "leaking-pipe-syndrome" and thus the water will have to be bought from a pump to make the car work.

Water i personally don't see it being a problem, I was reading a bit about that and we can convert sea water to pure water, it is just a bit expensive at the moment but companies (GE) are working to make it cheaper. About oil companies adding stuff to water, until oil is raking in the moolah they have no reason to create a whole new water infrastructure (i.e. water pumps and water fulled cars)

It may seem like I'm picking on you lately, but there is a very good reason for v8's. Ever tried to tow a livestock trailer with a 4 banger civic? Your probably not gonna get very far before you blow up. Granted a diesel does a better job but gas gets the job done, and well.

EDIT: Another thing, the earth is in a warming trend, but that doesn't mean that "Global Warming" aka "Climate Shift" aka "We're all fizzirked unless you listen to me and do everything I say bwahahaha.. erm... I mean... Be more responsible" is real. I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea to pollute less, but do some reading. The earth goes through phases. You remember learning about the ice ages, yes? Unless I'm mistaken we weren't all out driving our big suv's then. Unless those Woolly Mammoths had some hella awesome trucks.

I agree with you on the edit thing... I think earth is just going into a normal climate change, though polluting less is a good idea but there no need for "a state of fear" (< Book my Michael C. by the same name)

btw did you hear about the apparent Ice Age coming, some scientist in Australia saw less sun spots on the sun and thus something will happen due to that... :rolleyes:

I completely agree on that.

People complain about how US rules the world but I hope we never see some OPEC countries ruling it.

OPEC is indirectly controlling the world... Each country these days has an alliance with one of these countries to get oil or natural gas supply at very favourable conditions for them...

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Well all this mess is obviously god's plan...so who are but we to interject?

:P:P

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What if it temp does not come back down? What if desertification process continue and the whole ecosystem gets ****ed up like 90% of scientists say? (And the other 10% is composed of a 9% of paid Exxon scientists and 1% of crazy guys who think this is all due to midget aliens)

What will USA and all you guys do? Tell everybody else: "Wow, you guys were right, who would have guessed?" and die?

Americans have been exposed too much to "whoever cares for the enviroment is a pussy" and now they all think saying "even if we have no proof, it is probably just a natural thing that all species are facing extinction, that deserts are growing everywhere, that oceans are losing oxygen at alarming rates, that the north pole has no more ice" because that's the macho thing to do.

Of course, admitting the enviroment is under some huge danger we cannot even start to comprehend how to handle hurts too much.

Sorry, but we are killing ourselves, and the rest of the living things, and nobody cares, because it would mean being a "tree hugger" or "one of those darn commie faggot green lovers"

It is all really kind of irritating so forgive my bitterness.

I could not disagree more.

I live in an area where we are told to believe in global warming. All my friends believe in global warming, besides one who believes what I believe (and this person is a super science mega genuis). All my friends tell me I'm a moron because I don't believe in global warming. Tree huggers don't exist in my area.

And this isnt' high school anymore. Any adult with an image problem is ****ed up. I've got a wife who married me for me, so I can act like myself because I haven't got anything to prove. I don't put on some big act for people just because that's how society wants me to.

Look, I chose to believe what made sense to me. I didn't listen to George W. Bush (I ****ing hate him), I did not conform to the "I MUST DRIVE A FORD F-950 OR ELSE MY TESTICLES ARE TOO SMALL" rule (I drive a ****ing Acura RSX!). I recycle, I always have, I drive a car that gets good gas mileage at the expense of my safety, etc.

The fact is, I support the same cause as you: abandoning fossil fuels. So don't attack me for why I support it, just be glad you have support.

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It was not aimed specifically at you, though you posted the most clear version of Amercan's stance about Global Warming and the last poist before mine, so I picked yours to reply.

The fact that your are married, or that you can make your own decisions, is something I am happy for, but it's not enough to overcome the fact that americans seem to be subject to a continuous anti GW propaganda. In fact, I am noticing that it also happens in UK and Australia/NZ. Or...perhaps SouthAmerica (well, at least Argentina) is subject to too much pro GW propaganda. It could work both ways.

However, the symetry gets broken somewhere. I can see why Bush (and USA in general) would like to not believe in GW. I can't see why we would like to believe that the world is marching towards mass extinction, personally, I'd very much believe this won't happen, but most prrofs show otherwise.

Anyways, I couldn't care less about all this. Obviously, everybody is happy thinking this is just a natural cycle and that there is nothing we can do except some shy attempts at consuming less fossil fuels. (And yes, I know you are not one of those, Eric). We are royally screwed, but we will be able to smell the sweet aroma of gasoline till the end.

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The fact that your are married, or that you can make your own decisions, is something I am happy for, but it's not enough to overcome the fact that americans seem to be subject to a continuous anti GW propaganda. In fact, I am noticing that it also happens in UK and Australia/NZ. Or...perhaps SouthAmerica (well, at least Argentina) is subject to too much pro GW propaganda. It could work both ways.

Careful with the assumptions, Andres....... The UK is one of the most pro GW places there is. The preaching (for that's what it is) is ever present. If anyone even dares to question anything, anything at all, they are immediately labelled as either deluded or in the pocket of the oil companies. Just like you did with your random statistics back there.

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:lol: From a Canadian perspective. Global warming, Bring it on!!!!!! :lol:

Selfishly Countries in the Northern hemisphere are likely to benefit from a warmer climate. There is a flip side to this debate, but no one wants to talk about that. Doom and Gloom is what interests the media and appartently the people that pay attention to it.

Fact

Dirty old fossil fuel producer is being taken to task about 500 ducks that landed on the tailings pond of an oil sand producer. Headlines all over the country about the bad fossil fuel producers.

Fact is wind turbines kill 30,000 birds a year in Canada, but what gets the media's attention is the 500 hapless ducks that landed on that tailings pond. Why??? Because oil companies are evil and wind power is good.

Mainstream media is impossible to believe or take seriously. They have their own agenda, and frankly that is to sell papers and air time. They play to the public's emotions and do more harm then good. They love love to stir the pot of discontent.

High fossil fuel energy costs are the best thing on the planet. It all economics my friends. High fossil fuel cost make other forms of energy more viable. That is a good thing. Suck it up, pay the higher fuel prices and wait for the next best thing since oil come along. Growing crops for ethonal production is ludicrous and should be discouraged. It take 0.75 bbls of crude oil in energy to grow enough crop to produce 1 bbl of bio fuel. for this gain of 25% you are going to reduce food stocks for human comsumption and literly starve the poorer nations. We are already starting to see it. Anybody who thinks using biofuel is good is misinformed. It may be alternate energy but it isn't better.

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Careful with the assumptions, Andres....... The UK is one of the most pro GW places there is. The preaching (for that's what it is) is ever present. If anyone even dares to question anything, anything at all, they are immediately labelled as either deluded or in the pocket of the oil companies. Just like you did with your random statistics back there.

Not my lucky thread, I guess. I keep causing misunderstandings. I did not mean that neither UK or Australia/NZ are anti GW. What I meant was that I read anti GW opinions from those countries. You read some opinions here favouring the use of fossil fuels and things like that, but you don't read people saying GW does not exists or it is not pollution related.

As for my random statistics (I guess you refer to the scientist ones): If I am saying that americans have been subject to anti GW propaganda, and that is why is so common there not to believe in GW (from what I read/hear from my friends up there) then obviously I don't think the oil companies bought you all. Feel free to disagree, and fell free to dislike "the preaching" (is that the reason why you chose to disbelieve GW?) but I can't see the relationship between how much you don't like pro GW people/handling by the mediawith the ral situation.

And the real situation is: climate/ecosystem is complex. So complex the best supercomputers are used to solve problems related to them, and still we can't predict whether it is going to rain in the next hour or not. We have absolutely no idea whether the extinction of mosquitoes is a bless or it will mean the death of mankind in the next 10 years. But we know climate is changing for worse. We know that many hurricanes, typhoons, floods etc are appearing in zones that never happened before. We know that desertification is advancing at an alarming rate in Africa and South America. That lakes are disappearing in a matter of a couple of years right here. That oceanic deserts (zones devoid of fish because of lack of oxygen) are appearing at an icreasing rate. That ice in the north pole is disappearing and might disappear completely this year. See this.

So, is it natural or not? We don't know. It is certainly very probable that the immense increase in pollution has changed the climate. The difference lies in how do we react to the lack of knowledge: should we keep our happy polluting lives, because we choose to think it is all natural? Or try to minimize the impact on our ecosystem until we understand what the **** are we doing?

If you think I'm preaching, that would be too sad. I am very worried, not being patronizing.

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