226 replies to this topic

[Massa]

There's another thread out there for controversy/protests/politics/FIA/Ecclestone/human rights/whatever.  I'd prefer to keep this thread about the race that is being run.  I'd rather see discussion of why it is being run etc. elsewhere.  I'm not telling you what you can or cannot post, but I'm really telling you what you can or cannot post.  I just want to enjoy the race and basically this is my own private thread for people who support the running of the race because I don't like how there's all this information on the Internet and stuff like that.

Fun facts:
Fernando Alonso has won this race thrice and Ferrari have won it another three times beyond their 2010 win together.  They are clearly the favorites.

The first Grand Prix I ever watched?  Bahrain 2006.  Good battle between Fernando Alonso and Michael Schumacher.  The next year Nick Heidfeld made Fernando Alonso look silly.  I'm more-than-convinced that if you planted some trees around this track and had built in the U.K. or France or whatever in the 1960s it would be a firm favorite on the calendar.  It's not a bad track at all, a little too long, but mostly it's just weird and new and different and that makes it uncomfortable.

Nico Rosberg won the last race against teammate Michael Schumacher.  Other drivers to beat Schumacher on the same team as him?  Felipe Massa, Rubens Barrichello, Eddie Irvine, and Johnny Herbert.  Rosberg's career is going nowhere.

Lewis Hamilton has finished third in the first three races after completing three full seasons since his World Championship.  That's three threes, or 27.  27 was one the numbers that Gilles Villeneuve used, the other being 12 (three times Hamilton's car number: 4).  Jacques Villeneuve used both 12 and 27 when racing in CART.  Jacques Villeneuve was second in his first F1 season, first in his second, fifth in his third.  Lewis Hamilton?  Same story.  Both have driven NASCAR vehicles, both have dabbled in music, and both have displayed different hair and facial hair styles throughout their careers.  Villeneuve was the third Canadian driver in F1, the first being Al Pease, who was born in England, where Lewis Hamilton was born.

Start/Finish Differential:
(Includes every race, regardless)
Pérez +18
Vergne +18
Di Resta +15
Alonso +14
Senna +12
Glock +10
Pic +8
Räikkönen +5
Vettel +4
Ricciardo +4
Petrov +4
Webber +3
Karthikeyan +2 (two races only)
de la Rosa +2 (two races only)
Kovalainen +1
Hamilton 0
Hülkenberg -5
Massa -5
Kobayahsi -6
Button -8
Maldonado -8
Rosberg -11
Grosjean -32
Schumacher -45

[Rainmaster]

Good fun facts.

[BradSpeedMan]

Massa, on 15 April 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

The next year Nick Heidfeld made Fernando Alonso look silly.

Can't remember what happened? I'm getting either old or senile, or something like that...

[Rainmaster]

BradSpeedMan, on 15 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Can't remember what happened? I'm getting either old or senile, or something like that...

Bad memory huh? Well, Heidfeld passed Alonso around the outside in a bold and skilful move. It was one of the many highlights of Heidfeld's glittering career and the start of his third championship winning year.

For everyone's enjoyment:

[Caesar]

 AqiVv4cCQAIZr2j.jpg   38.22K   11 downloads

apparently protesters only have issues with hamilton

[Massa]

Did I see...I think I saw...was that...the "p-word"...my precious thread has been soiled!  I'll have to make another one now!

[JHS18]

Massa, on 15 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Did I see...I think I saw...was that...the "p-word"...my precious thread has been soiled!  I'll have to make another one now!

Well it is officially the sponsored by protesters Bahrain Grand Prix don't you know?

[Massa]

NO THE SPONSOR IS GULF AIR LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC IT ISN'T ABOUT POETRY IT'S ABOUT FLOODING IN BRITAIN.



(I will be very happy if anyone gets that reference).

[Massa]

Getting back to racing: If velocity effects downforce, but downforce effects velocity, how do F1 cars work?  No seriously I realize I sound stupid but downforce increases when velocity increases but doesn't your velocity depend on the amount of downforce?  I hope the people who work on this stuff get paid a lot.

[Quiet One]

@Eric:

1. See? That is why "Bahrain is different". You can't separate politics from the event itself, which is what Bernie is trying to do. Attending or not attending is getting involved somehow whether he likes it or not. Whether I watch it or not, however, is irrelevant.

2. No, I don't get the reference at all. No cigar for me.

3. Velocity affects downforce. End velocity is affected by downforce. To make it simpler: acceleration is affected by downforce. So, the faster you go, the more resistance you get to go even faster, until you simply cannot go faster because downforce negates acceleration. Consider them opposite forces. There is probably a better scientific explanation I hope this is enough to make it clear.

4. I know my English is faulty at best, but shouldn't you say "affect" instead of "effect"? In Spanish, at least, "affect" is a verb, whereas "effect" is a noun. I always thought it was the same in English.

5. If I am right about 4, then yes, you sound stupid And I sound pedantic. Otherwise, I will sound stupid but I'm used to it anyways I expect Adam to enlighten us.

[Massa]

It is affect.

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 15 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

It is affect.

That means I sound pedantic...tee hee!!!

Wait...

Ok, sorry about that!

[Quiet One]

Ok, about the race:

Main question, have we just witnessed the first race of a BGP-like dominance from the Mercedes? If not, will Merc keep fighting at the front nonetheless? In such case it seems to be a very tight fight among the Mercs, the Maccas and the RBRs.

Upper midfield is currently composed of: Lotus, Sauber, Williams and Ferrari. Of these, obviously Ferrari/Alonso is the strongest combination to haul some spectacular results here and there, but they also seem to have the weakest car. Kimi/Poochie is a more balanced combination, with a growing team and a fast driver. They could be more consistent than Ferrari in the long term if Ferrari's design is beyond all hope.

Sauber seems on the rise and both drivers are fast. Main concerns are how long can they sustain that level as the season unfolds and how fierce is going to be the battle between two very skilled and bold drivers. I think Perez has the edge right now because the kid seems to handle himself pretty well at  both ends of the spectrum (full fighter mode vs surgical strike mode), but only just.

Williams is the weakest, with a couple of accident prone drivers.

Below them...who cares?

[Massa]

I still think McLaren are ahead of Mercedes.  Partly gut feeling, partly the fact Button may have won this morning, or Hamilton may have had a different race without the grid penalty, or whatever.  Schumacher certainly didn't have what Rosberg had; he wasn't going to be on the podium based on where he came out after the first stop (of course so many positions then changed, so who knows).

I hope Mercedes don't have it all figured out, of course, because I like the excitement we've had so far, and I'd just feel weird if Nico Rosberg won a title in a similar way Jenson Button won one (out of absolute nowhere), because I like to judge drivers quickly and write everything off with such an ease, and I wouldn't be able to do that if two drivers who weren't supposed to win actually won.

[yurp]

I'd like to see a Sauber, Lotus or (even) RedBull win. Just to mix things up even more.

Edited by yurp, 16 April 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[The Shadow]

We will probably have high surface temperatures for Bahrain. If Mercedes can overcome that and be competitive, then their position as championship contenders is confirmed.

Mclaren seem to be letting its drivers down in the pits.

[HandyNZL]

1 Velocity affects drag.  Drag is caused by the effect of velocity.
2 Downforce is increased through velocity, but not to the same degree as drag.
3 DRS stands for Drag Reduction System
4 You use your DRS wingee thing at high velocity to reduce drag and thus go faster.
5 At this new velocity your downforce decreases as the aero effect of the wings is "stalled"
6 Downforce is used to keep the car "on rails" so the power can be kept on through corners.
7 Corners are not driven at the highest velocity possible from the car, ergo, optimum downforce is created at lower speeds.
8 Drag is an unwanted side effect of velocity and is the opposite reaction to velocity - not downforce.  
9 Downforce is forces imposed down wards...drag is a force pulling in the opposite direction to the cars travel direction.
10 High downforce can be created at slow speeds - you just need the right shapes employed in wings, body work, ride height etc
11 Most of a formula ones downforce comes from the rear diffuser, not the wings.  This is why a ground effects car does not rely on wings and upper body work features (refer here the Delta Wing project)
12 Andre likes to wear drag, but only on Sunday's when Steve visits.

[dribbler]

What will be discussing after the race; silver arrows or bullets?

[Quiet One]

HandyNZL, on 16 April 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

1 Velocity affects drag.  Drag is caused by the effect of velocity.
2 Downforce is increased through velocity, but not to the same degree as drag.
3 DRS stands for Drag Reduction System
4 You use your DRS wingee thing at high velocity to reduce drag and thus go faster.
5 At this new velocity your downforce decreases as the aero effect of the wings is "stalled"
6 Downforce is used to keep the car "on rails" so the power can be kept on through corners.
7 Corners are not driven at the highest velocity possible from the car, ergo, optimum downforce is created at lower speeds.
8 Drag is an unwanted side effect of velocity and is the opposite reaction to velocity - not downforce.  
9 Downforce is forces imposed down wards...drag is a force pulling in the opposite direction to the cars travel direction.
10 High downforce can be created at slow speeds - you just need the right shapes employed in wings, body work, ride height etc
11 Most of a formula ones downforce comes from the rear diffuser, not the wings.  This is why a ground effects car does not rely on wings and upper body work features (refer here the Delta Wing project)
12 Andre likes to wear drag, but only on Sunday's when Steve visits.

Thanks. I mixed up drag with downforce. You are absolutely right.

As for point 12, just look up in youtube "Andrew in drag" (Magnetic Fields). You will be surprised. (And it's a nice catchy song btw)

[HandyNZL]

And I should have mentioned that the opposite of downforce, in terms of a race car, is the suspension (springs, damper etc), as these react in the opposite direction to the downforce.  It is therefore possible to negate all downforce by having extremely stiff suspension.

But of course you don't want that, but something more pliable and reacts to weight and center of gravity shifts in the car.

This is why the active suspension cars were so dominant (when they worked) - they stiffened and softened the suspension relative to the downforce and lateral forces; simply put, if only downforce is detected then the suspension stiffens, but with lateral (body roll, side movement, over/understeer, all found when you go through a corner), then the suspension would soften to allow for suspension movement to react against the lateral forces, and allow the optimum downforce for that exact moment.

[JHS18]

First F1 journalist to write what he saw in Bahrain here.

[Massa]

I have no authority.  Someone else even voted in my poll!

They're running the race, amidst whatever circumstances, I'm going to enjoy the race because my not enjoyment of it doesn't change the fact it is being run.  They're running it, I'm watching it, so I can't pretend to take a moral high road or anything like that because I'll be awake and tuning in.  That's honestly the whole reason I made a second thread, to have a race thread, and the other be a protests thread.  I guess I'll go make a third one, lock it, and then unlock it when I want to post in it, then re-lock it, etc.

[JHS18]

Massa, on 17 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I have no authority.  Someone else even voted in my poll!

They're running the race, amidst whatever circumstances, I'm going to enjoy the race because my not enjoyment of it doesn't change the fact it is being run.  They're running it, I'm watching it, so I can't pretend to take a moral high road or anything like that because I'll be awake and tuning in.  That's honestly the whole reason I made a second thread, to have a race thread, and the other be a protests thread.  I guess I'll go make a third one, lock it, and then unlock it when I want to post in it, then re-lock it, etc.

I like your logic really - but I think this weekend it'll be impossible to block out what is going on elsewhere. Probably going to hear about it a lot.

Oh well. If this race turns boring (which it will, because it's Bahrain and the track sucks as 99.9% of all F1 fans say ) it'll give the commentators an easier time of thinking what to say.

I think I just got your reference from earlier as well....I'd forgotten about that!

Edited by JHS18, 17 April 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[AleHop]

dribbler, on 16 April 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

What will be discussing after the race; silver arrows or bullets?

Or Team Molotov?

[Massa]

Serious question: what do people want from the Bahrain International Circuit?  What would you change about it other than "just don't run it at all?"  Theoretical world: F1 needs to run a race here, so how do you make this track better?  I watch an on-board lap there and, no, it's not my favorite track, but I see nothing wrong with it.  You can pass in certain areas, there's enough variety, etc.

Let's face it, you get a large enough sample (which we don't have at Bahrain) and you have good and bad races at every track.  I've been thoroughly bored watching races at Interlagos and, in my personal opinion, that's the best track on which they race.  I just feel that because Bahrain doesn't have history or scenery or an atmosphere, we discount it as a bad track.  I really feel that if this event had some longevity, which I fear it won't, it would develop character and be something we'd enjoy more.  Hell, if they just put people in the grandstands I think people would enjoy it more.  I'm convinced factors that have no bearing on the race have a lot of bearing on how we perceive the race, which would validate Tilke et al wasting money on these massive structures and things at new construction that leads to escalating costs which cause ticket prices to be astronomical leading to poor attendance which we then use as a detriment of our enjoyment of the race and the world goes full circle and somehow in that terrible loop downforce happens.

Compared to a place like Magny-Cours, which people seemingly want back after years of bashing, I think it's fine.  It's miles ahead of Indianapolis, which was probably the worst track they've had in recent years.

F1 has a lot more to do with racing against the track and a lot less to do with racing the competition, and no doubt it's thrilling when you get both like we've gotten this season.  I don't see how we can argue "we don't need overtaking, DRS is terrible, if I want overtaking I'll go watch oval racing, I want to see drivers fighting the track" half the time and then "well this circuit is boring" the other half, but I'm sure there's some way to justify that, and I'm curious as to how.  What do we really want?  What makes a good track, and why do those standards seem to vary?  It seems we invent criteria to fit the races we want to keep for whatever reasons, and then don't invent criteria for the races we're not big fans of for whatever reason.

If you want overtaking, use this layout at Sakhir: http://en.wikipedia....--Flat_Oval.svg

[dribbler]

Let's see what F1 2012 can make of Bahrain before damning it completely. I'm open minded to the fact that the cars had as much to do with the boredom as the tracks themselves. Now we are seemingly harking back to the glory days, with variance bringing unpredictability, we might just get lucky.

Failing that, what would I like to see? Moving on to the next track as quickly as possible.

[JHS18]

dribbler, on 17 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Failing that, what would I like to see? Moving on to the next track as quickly as possible.

Yes. That. Just don't bother with this.

I  agree partly with what Eric says. I think F1 needs to go back to having  races in special places. F1 is an incredible sport and it needs  incredible venues. The two most character-less tracks that F1 visits are  easily Bahrain and South Korea, with possibly China in there as well.  They're just so...well, DULL. I wouldn't miss any of them if they  disappeared off the calendar tomorrow, and judging by the poor  attendances, neither would the locals. F1 should be in exotic locations  that you want to go - look at a place like Monaco. Would a street track  in South Korea have the same appeal? Most likely not. They don't have  any character, it's just having a circuit there because there was the  money to do so...

I do think though, that tracks GROW into having  character. Sure, a lot of fans would probably say the likes of Monaco,  Monza, Spa and Silverstone are their favourites, and true, they do  happen to be some of the oldest tracks Formula One visits. Interlagos,  Montreal and Suzuka probably fall into that category as well. So maybe  it is hard for a lot of fans to get passionate about new tracks being  built in different countries at the expense of older tracks.

But  look at the likes of Singapore. Okay, maybe it isn't the best track in  the world, but that race sure has character. With it being a night race  on a street track, the architecture of the buildings, the scenery just  making it look busy...it makes it feel like there's definitely an event  on. It's a race more and more people seem to want to go to.  Same for  Abu Dhabi. Same for Valencia. I'm not saying for a second any of those  are what I'd call great tracks, I mean in the case of Abu Dhabi and  Valencia they're actually pretty awful - but they're in cool locations,  and the backdrop makes it feel like you're watching something important.  Bahrain has been on the calender for longer than any of those other  races I've mentioned and it STILL hasn't captured the imagination of the  locals or worldwide F1 fans.

They need to do something to make  the event FEEL special. Just being a track in a desert in a super rich  country with hardly anyone in the stands...what really is there to be  excited about by that? I don't know about anyone else, but there are  certainly some races I look forward to more than others, but Bahrain  isn't one of those, not just because of what is going on over there right now. It's just bland. Add elevation changes, plant grass and trees, whatever, just make it look like an exciting place and the fans will want to go there. At the moment it doesn't look anything like an exciting place. Unless you like protests.

Edited by JHS18, 17 April 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[Quiet One]

Dull landscapes and lack of actual distinctive features? Silverstone Sorry, my British friends but Maggots/Becketts is no Eau Rouge

[Rainmaster]

Isn't Maggotts/Becketts considered more of a challenge by the drivers in modern cars than Eau Rouge, huh, punk?

I don't have any issue with the Bahrain GP as a concept, but I don't think the current track is that good. I couldn't really care less (or "could" if you're American ) if it has any distinctive features, or about the attendance. I'm not an architect or the race promoter so I don't care about those things. What fan is genuinely sitting at home watching the race thinking about the emptiness of the grandstands or the fact there aren't any nice trees or pretty buildings. What's more important is whether the track can produce a decent race, and whether it is challenging for the driver. At the moment I'd say the Bahrain track is in the lower tier of circuits in terms of both of those things and therefore I don't think it's a good track. Maybe it will prove me wrong and maybe there's been a few good races there, but I can't remember them. Just to put Bahrain into context, I'd say Silverstone is an average track. Suzuka is obviously the greatest track, overall, and China and Turkey got the best of the "Tilke tracks" and are both certainly worthy of the calendar.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 17 April 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Isn't Maggotts/Becketts considered more of a challenge by the drivers in modern cars than Eau Rouge, huh, punk?

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

(Yes, you are right)