227 replies to this topic

[Massa]

"No merit" implied something harsher, to me, as if it shouldn't count.  My bad, must have read into it too much.

[Quiet One]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Yes, Alonso's yesterday's drive was lucky, but IMO it was't brilliant, it was just a consecution of chances - imagine what would have happened if in first place McLaren's mechanics didn't do these enormous mistakes (I don't know how to call it, and it is not the first time they do this to Hamilton, recently in every race they waste an enormous amount of time to him), if Vettel's car didn't break, if Grosjean's car didn't break also, do you really think Alonso would have finished first or even would have been on the podium? Please man, don't tell me that you do...
Where is the brilliance of this victory - not being able to clasificate better than 12, and the reason to finish 1 is all better than you have their cars K.O., or have been forgotten in the pitstop for ages lately to be hit by idiots...I see no brilliancy, no glory and no merit in such a win...

Grosjean's car breaking up was something Alonso could only have witnessed in his rearview mirrors because he had already overtook him fair and square on track. So he  only benefited in track position by Vettel's retirement. As you said, he started 11th. That means that at least 9 other drivers could have won after Seb's car failed. Let's take out Grosjean out of the picture because his car failed him in the end as well. That still leaves you 8 other drivers. And those are just the ones ahead of him, not counting those that had "bad luck" and must probably be considered "as good as Alonso" but were behind him.

So, you used an ad-hoc explanation on why the "best guys" were taken out. Now, you find yourself having to explain why the other guys could not win under the same or better conditions than he was. And then trace that back to the past 20 races in which he finished in the points and most of them in the top five.

Maybe the rest are even more worthless than he is? As per your logic it definitely must be so. Perhaps being a gay latin swindler helps?

Consistency is what makes a driver a champion. Coherence is what makes a logic "rational". Ad-hoc arguments work perfectly only when applied to a minuscule, isolated part of the picture. If you extrapolate an ad-hoc argument over a tiny fact and then make a sweeping derisive generalisation ("gay latin swindler"? really?) you simply show that rational logic is alien to you, and thus remove yourself from any hopes of a coherent debate.

Maybe you would like to rephrase your points?

[JHS18]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Yes, Alonso's yesterday's drive was lucky, but IMO it was't brilliant, it was just a consecution of chances - imagine what would have happened if in first place McLaren's mechanics didn't do these enormous mistakes (I don't know how to call it, and it is not the first time they do this to Hamilton, recently in every race they waste an enormous amount of time to him), if Vettel's car didn't break, if Grosjean's car didn't break also, do you really think Alonso would have finished first or even would have been on the podium? Please man, don't tell me that you do...
Where is the brilliance of this victory - not being able to clasificate better than 12, and the reason to finish 1 is all better than you have their cars K.O., or have been forgotten in the pitstop for ages lately to be hit by idiots...I see no brilliancy, no glory and no merit in such a win...

Well, as the expression goes, you have to be in it to win it. Alonso definitely WAS in it yesterday, and as you rightly point out, he started 12th - so you'd have to say that there were faster cars - yet he beat them. On a track that it is supposedly very hard to overtake at (even with DRS), and in a season where up until yesterday every winner had come from the front row of the grid (leaving Malaysia aside, as it was a wet race) it was a very strong drive.

You make it sound as if just because Vettel and Grosjean's cars failed and Hamilton had a slow pit stop that he didn't really deserve it. Trust me, Alonso's been in F1 for quite a few years now. He has lost plenty of races through a car failure, or a problem in the pit lane or whatever. Would you still think the same if Hamilton had benefitted from that and gone on to win one of those races? I don't think you would. What goes around comes around, and really, you have to make your own luck sometimes.

I don't think history will look back on this race as a "lucky" win or whatever, I think they'll view it as a fantastic drive.

[turbokick]

Well this is my opinion, I have said many facts and put many questions that nobody replied about the treat Alonso always have received, and the treat for Hamilton, I think I'm not the only one that sees some not correct things in all this situation, when Hamilton in a classification session wins the pole position, but for not having brought his car in the pitlane he is punished to start 15 positions backwards (this IMO is equal to ruin his race) and when Alonso does the same in a real race nobody punishes him. There are many other things I can say but see no point of doing it, although all you see in my posts is ¨latin swindler¨. I don't feel guilty for respecting the real driving talent more than good strategists.

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[JHS18]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well this is my opinion, I have said many facts and put many questions that nobody replied about the treat Alonso always have received, and the treat for Hamilton, I think I'm not the only one that sees some not correct things in all this situacion, when Hamilton in a classification session wins the pole position, but for not having brought his car in the pitlane he is punished to start 15 positions backwards (this IMO is equal to ruin his race) and when Alonso does the same in a race nobody punishes him. There are many other things I can say but see no point doing it, although all you see in my posts is ¨latin swindler¨. I feel not guilty I respect the real talent more than good strategists.

Was it even confirmed what Alonso's reason for stopping the car was? There are many reasons that someone can stop and it isn't just to do with the fuel. Plus it is not a written rule that cars should be disqualified for stopping after the race, in fact, we've seen plenty of cars this season stopping after the checkered flag and no action has been taken. I don't believe it is the same for qualifying. You can cry about how unfair the penalty was for Hamilton, but that's the rules.

Edited by JHS18, 25 June 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[dribbler]

The question of this topic surely refers to the drivers as they are now. Digging up 2007 over and over again has little relevance. Which driver on the current grid who drove on 2007 is the same driver now?

There could be an argument to suggest that If Fernando has not improved since, then maybe Lewis is not as good as he was when he started. Think how raw and natural he was back then with what seemed to be an uncanny ability to overtake daringly but cleanly. That natural ability seems to have been replaced by a tentative and accident prone driver who maybe over analyses himself.

That will surely be a popular view with my new friend here (the one with a penchant for applying his boot to forced induction devices).

[turbokick]

dribbler, on 25 June 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

The question of this topic surely refers to the drivers as they are now. Digging up 2007 over and over again has little relevance. Which driver on the current grid who drove on 2007 is the same driver now?

There could be an argument to suggest that If Fernando has not improved since, then maybe Lewis is not as good as he was when he started. Think how raw and natural he was back then with what seemed to be an uncanny ability to overtake daringly but cleanly. That natural ability seems to have been replaced by a tentative and accident prone driver who maybe over analyses himself.

That will surely be a popular view with my new friend here (the one with a penchant for applying his boot to forced induction devices).

Well, I think that if somebody is better than another one back in 2007, and he is also younger than him, there isn't much probability the same pal to be worse nowadays, the normal process is when you have talent and the oportunity to practice what you do best, to improve, not to worsen.
Friends .

[Argento Reloaded]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Thanks man, I don't think that we are here to have views that coincide at all costs. Regards.

2007 WDC stats: Kimi 110 points, Hamilton 109 points, Alonso 109 points but not all points are equal for you...

[HandyNZL]

What's wrong with being a gay latin swindler?  Three things that many of us should strive for...

[pabloh20]

JHS18, on 25 June 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Was it even confirmed what Alonso's reason for stopping the car was? There are many reasons that someone can stop and it isn't just to do with the fuel. Plus it is not a written rule that cars should be disqualified for stopping after the race, in fact, we've seen plenty of cars this season stopping after the checkered flag and no action has been taken. I don't believe it is the same for qualifying. You can cry about how unfair the penalty was for Hamilton, but that's the rules.

I am sure you are correct here.  At a guess, this rule -

33.2 Any driver whose car stops on the circuit during the qualifying session will not be permitted to take any further part in the session. Any car which stops on the circuit during the qualifying session, and which is returned to the pits before the end of the session, will be held in parc ferme until the end of the session.

I don't think  a similar rule exists for the end of the race, probably for a whole host of reasons.

[pabloh20]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well this is my opinion, I have said many facts and put many questions that nobody replied about the treat Alonso always have received, and the treat for Hamilton, I think I'm not the only one that sees some not correct things in all this situation, when Hamilton in a classification session wins the pole position, but for not having brought his car in the pitlane he is punished to start 15 positions backwards (this IMO is equal to ruin his race) and when Alonso does the same in a real race nobody punishes him. There are many other things I can say but see no point of doing it, although all you see in my posts is ¨latin swindler¨. I don't feel guilty for respecting the real driving talent more than good strategists.

If you cannot respect the real driving talent of Alonso, and not just from yesterday, then I am not sure what you are watching, to be honest.  I am not an Alonso fan, but I respect him enormously as a driver.  Obviously, he's a poor second to Schumi, but then who isn't??  

As for Alonso yesterday, the way he worked his way through the traffic was excellent.  Yes, he got a bit lucky in the sense of the SC and Vettel breaking down, but he got himself into the position of benefitting through his own skill.  Could Grojy jhave passed him?  Who knows?  After the pass he made on Lewis, though, it would have been fun to watch him try.

I like Lewis a lot, but he's a work in progress.  At the moment he is developing a new style for himself and so he seems to be in a transition phase at this point in time.  Also, it's worth remembering that the likes of Schumi and Alonso, for example, made quite a few driving errors even during their championship winning seasons, so if Lewis only makes a mistake every 8 races or so, even if it is an error in judgement rather than an actual driving mistake as such, then he will be doing ok this year, especially with the level of performance he is putting in.

And yes, I know Lewis wanted to defend his position, it's his natural instinct and yes, Maldanado was at fault, but even so, Lewis was a sitting duck and he could never have defended his position for another 2 laps was it?  Having said that, I admire his sheer bloody mindedness for trying and it's so much easier sitting in an armchair with hindsight judging these incidents.

Edited by pabloh20, 25 June 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Quiet One]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Having said that, I admire his sheer bloody mindedness for trying and it's so much easier sitting in an armchair with hindsight judging these incidents.

You obviously never sat in my armchair.

Oh, wait...this will get sooo ugly...

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

You obviously never sat in my armchair.

Oh, wait...this will get sooo ugly...

That's not an armchair.

[AleHop]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If you cannot respect the real driving talent of Alonso, and not just from yesterday, then I am not sure what you are watching, to be honest.  I am not an Alonso fan, but I respect him enormously as a driver.  Obviously, he's a poor second to Schumi, but then who isn't??

Oh, you had to spoil a fine post, didn't you?  

[AleHop]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

That's not an armchair.

[pabloh20]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Oh, you had to spoil a fine post, didn't you?  

I am sorry.  However, I agree, Alonso shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the great Schumi.  It will never happen again

[Delta]

dribbler, on 25 June 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

The question of this topic surely refers to the drivers as they are now. Digging up 2007 over and over again has little relevance. Which driver on the current grid who drove on 2007 is the same driver now?

There could be an argument to suggest that If Fernando has not improved since, then maybe Lewis is not as good as he was when he started. Think how raw and natural he was back then with what seemed to be an uncanny ability to overtake daringly but cleanly. That natural ability seems to have been replaced by a tentative and accident prone driver who maybe over analyses himself.

That will surely be a popular view with my new friend here (the one with a penchant for applying his boot to forced induction devices).

To be fair the team haven't put machinery under him that's been consistently quick enough since 2008, which hasn't helped him. I personally don't think becoming a bit more measured is a bad thing as long as he doesn't do it to the point of obsession and still races the way I love to see him race.

[turbokick]

Argento Reloaded, on 25 June 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

2007 WDC stats: Kimi 110 points, Hamilton 109 points, Alonso 109 points but not all points are equal for you...

It seems you didh't watch any of the 2007 races and didn't read a word I wrote...I feel tyred to write the same thing over and over...What was the clasification until the last race? Who was leading? Who played unfairly, changing the final calsification by using totally incorrect means with no punishment (as usual)? Or maybe in your opinion crashing into other pilot's car is a fair mean of compeating? Since when? Since we have Alonso in F1? Yes I know that many rules have been ignored in Alonso's benefit, but this I think in a prestigious race like F1 is intolerable. Can you respond these simple questions that I already responded in my former posts?

Edited by turbokick, 26 June 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[turbokick]

HandyNZL, on 25 June 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

What's wrong with being a gay latin swindler?  Three things that many of us should strive for...

Well, if these are the things you're striving for, it's not my fault.

[turbokick]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I am sorry.  However, I agree, Alonso shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the great Schumi.  It will never happen again

Never. This is a crime and a demonstration of vary bad taste and very vague idea of motor sports.

[turbokick]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If you cannot respect the real driving talent of Alonso, and not just from yesterday, then I am not sure what you are watching, to be honest.  I am not an Alonso fan, but I respect him enormously as a driver.  Obviously, he's a poor second to Schumi, but then who isn't??  

As for Alonso yesterday, the way he worked his way through the traffic was excellent.  Yes, he got a bit lucky in the sense of the SC and Vettel breaking down, but he got himself into the position of benefitting through his own skill.  Could Grojy jhave passed him?  Who knows?  After the pass he made on Lewis, though, it would have been fun to watch him try.

I like Lewis a lot, but he's a work in progress.  At the moment he is developing a new style for himself and so he seems to be in a transition phase at this point in time.  Also, it's worth remembering that the likes of Schumi and Alonso, for example, made quite a few driving errors even during their championship winning seasons, so if Lewis only makes a mistake every 8 races or so, even if it is an error in judgement rather than an actual driving mistake as such, then he will be doing ok this year, especially with the level of performance he is putting in.

And yes, I know Lewis wanted to defend his position, it's his natural instinct and yes, Maldanado was at fault, but even so, Lewis was a sitting duck and he could never have defended his position for another 2 laps was it?  Having said that, I admire his sheer bloody mindedness for trying and it's so much easier sitting in an armchair with hindsight judging these incidents.

I really think you said nothing. I'm sorry, I don't know maybe just you've got nothing to say, but wasting so many words to express so little is useless IMO...

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I really think you said nothing. I'm sorry, I don't know maybe just you've got nothing to say, but wasting so many words to express so little is useless IMO...

Oh dear ignore.....

[dribbler]

HandyNZL, on 25 June 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

What's wrong with being a gay latin swindler?  Three things that many of us should strive for...

...and in some cases already are.

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

That's not an armchair.

Remind me not to visit Andres's furniture store.

Delta, on 26 June 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

To be fair the team haven't put machinery under him that's been consistently quick enough since 2008, which hasn't helped him. I personally don't think becoming a bit more measured is a bad thing as long as he doesn't do it to the point of obsession and still races the way I love to see him race.

Agreed.

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Hamilton had more points than Alonso during all the season and he finished with more points.

That is known as infactual piffle. Proof below;

Argento Reloaded, on 25 June 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

2007 WDC stats: Hamilton 109 points, Alonso 109 points

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

It seems you didh't watch any of the 2007 races and didn't read a word I wrote.

Are you ill?

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Well, if these are the things you're striving for, it's not my fault.

Not a fan of sarcasm.

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

Never. This is a crime and a demonstration of vary bad taste and very vague idea of motor sports.

Not a fan of sarcasm.

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I really think you said nothing. I'm sorry, I don't know maybe just you've got nothing to say, but wasting so many words to express so little is useless IMO...

If there was an 'irony-ometer', it surely would have exploded.

[turbokick]

dribbler, on 26 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

...





1. Are you ill?



2. Not a fan of sarcasm.

1. The same question for you.

2. Not my problem.

Edited by turbokick, 26 June 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[pabloh20]

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I really think you said nothing. I'm sorry, I don't know maybe just you've got nothing to say, but wasting so many words to express so little is useless IMO...

Cutting

[The Shadow]

Mr/Ms. Turbo,

Not all of us here are diehard fans of Alonso. Like you, I am more a LH fan.

More than that, I can say with certainty that most of us here are fans of great racecraft above many other things. Winning a race is about going a set distance faster than your competitors. Fernando Alonso did that in Valencia in a manner that was more than fair to his competitors. It is true that had SV and RG not had their failures, they had the potential to win the race, but to finish first, first you have to finish.

I understand the point you bring up when you mention the points situation pre-Interlagos 2007. The potential winner was at the time LH but at the end of the race Kimi was ahead. When it comes to objective assessment, Kimi won 5 races that year (LH and FA had 4 wins each I think) and Kimi had 1 point more than both of em. At the time, it hurt.

Sometimes we look and we see someone who deserves the championship doesn't get it, but those that get the championship definitely deserve it.

Formula 1 has always been about results, as painful to bear as they may be for the people invested in it. Pedigree or unfulfilled potential should never be a consideration. If's and but's don't figure in the championship points. If a driver is good, he will make himself an opportunity to lift the championship again.

For LH, his career will still be long, and if he keeps up his recent attitude, he has all the potential to bring in those results, so Mr/Ms Turbokick, do not worry. The next race may see him bounce back much stronger.

[AleHop]

Another very good post for turbokick. Let's see if this time gets him to a rational conversation with The Shadow.

[Jean Todt]

Funny....Lewis and Fernando have moved on from 2007 (and I read that they even text each other)....but some of us havn't.
Nando deserved the win...made his own luck...
Lewis was stupid to race a driver like Maldanado with flat tyres....
Lewis drives with his heart, Alonso drives with his brains....
Lewis can never be as good as Alonso,
Alonso can never be as good as Lewis, both are different animals.

[JHS18]

turbokick, on 26 June 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

It seems you didh't watch any of the 2007 races and didn't read a word I wrote...I feel tyred to write the same thing over and over...What was the clasification until the last race? Who was leading? Who played unfairly, changing the final calsification by using totally incorrect means with no punishment (as usual)? Or maybe in your opinion crashing into other pilot's car is a fair mean of compeating? Since when? Since we have Alonso in F1? Yes I know that many rules have been ignored in Alonso's benefit, but this I think in a prestigious race like F1 is intolerable. Can you respond these simple questions that I already responded in my former posts?

2007,2007, 2007.

Come on my friend, get a new argument. 2007 is long gone and as others have already said, Fernando and Lewis finished on the same amount of points. What happened during the season is frankly irrelevant really. It is kind of like saying that going into Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso was ahead so he deserved the title that year more than Vettel or something. What does it really matter what happened before? Yes, many of us will concede (including me who is not an LH fan at all) that Hamilton had a very strong debut year. But what more is there really to add beyond that? Maths is not my strongest subject, but I can perfectly understand the final championship standings.

I like how you completely ignored my point earlier on. You seem so obsessed by the idea that Alonso "betrayed" his team in 2007 by informing the FIA of what was going on. So in your opinion telling the truth was wrong? Of course, that is predictable logic from a fan of Lewis Hamilton - who lied to race stewards in 2009. I'd say that was no worse of a crime.

I'm playing devil's advocate, but do you see my point?

I think really if the best argument you can think of is something that happened in 2007, this debate isn't really going to last much longer. Welcome to the forums anyway.

Edited by JHS18, 26 June 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[DPR]

Ahhh isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? In all honesty, Alonso should have gone to Ferrari years ago, Kimi should have stayed at Mclaren and Hammy would have made the whole argument on his ability redundant by now. Instead everybody got greedy, and a man who sells fizzy drinks now has the F1 crowns. It's not too late - yet....but at this rate, by the time Mclaren have finished with Lewis, Lewis will be finished. And that would be a shame for F1.....and I don't even like Lewis!!!!