269 replies to this topic

[dribbler]

LabradoRacer, on 07 October 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Lewis writes off 2013; targets 2014.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103174

Now Schumi's retirement makes even more sense. When you're not a spring chicken, it's very difficult to commit yourself to a team a few years more till achieving success. In an article in today's Times of India, Schumi wrote he hopes the foundation he & Ross laid for Mercedes will come good in time.

Well, that pretty much settles it for me. No more wishing ill for Mercedes.

I wish I could remember where and when I saw it, but Lewis was interviewed earlier this year (and it may have even been the back end of last year) where he mentioned the fact that winning races and championships was not the be all and end all. I remember thinking that it gave a hint of a mindset that showed he was ready to play the long game in his career and not get beaten up through disappointment. Singapore was a brilliant demonstration of that. He was dissapointed but fully accepted that car failure is a part of the sport.

It is only because it took so long for his decision to move to Mercedes that people want to get bogged dwon in the deterioration of relations between him and McLaren. That sells newspapers but I feel it only tells half the story. There is nothing wrong with jumping ship for a new challenge, however crazy it may seem to some. The difference between Hamilton's move and Schumacher's to Ferrari is that we perceive it to be riddled with regrets, arguments and fall outs. But it actually just amounts to the same thing; they want a new challenge with the benefit of some credibilityalready behind them. Hamilton may or may not be difficult to manage, but it matters not one jot. His speed and determination are the imporrtant things here. Everything else is bi-weekly forum fodder.

Drivers move to other teams. It's not a big deal.

[DPR]

Great drivers have great egos. It's just a fact that they like to feel loved, needed, wanted, adored etc. McLaren has/is/will  never be that type of team. All eras of driver/team domination have been as a result of (on top of everything else) massive ego massaging. Think Ferrari/schumi - RBR/vettell. I think he'll love the gratitude that awaits him at Merc. If it's a sticky year in '13 everyone will say that Merc need to up their game, if it goes well everyone will say that Hammy is the best thing since me. Either way he'll still get a skip load of cash. It's a win-win deal for Lewis.  I really don't know why anyone doubted this move.

[Insider]

dribbler, on 10 October 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

I wish I could remember where and when I saw it, but Lewis was interviewed earlier this year (and it may have even been the back end of last year) where he mentioned the fact that winning races and championships was not the be all and end all. I remember thinking that it gave a hint of a mindset that showed he was ready to play the long game in his career and not get beaten up through disappointment. Singapore was a brilliant demonstration of that. He was dissapointed but fully accepted that car failure is a part of the sport.

It is only because it took so long for his decision to move to Mercedes that people want to get bogged dwon in the deterioration of relations between him and McLaren. That sells newspapers but I feel it only tells half the story. There is nothing wrong with jumping ship for a new challenge, however crazy it may seem to some. The difference between Hamilton's move and Schumacher's to Ferrari is that we perceive it to be riddled with regrets, arguments and fall outs. But it actually just amounts to the same thing; they want a new challenge with the benefit of some credibilityalready behind them. Hamilton may or may not be difficult to manage, but it matters not one jot. His speed and determination are the imporrtant things here. Everything else is bi-weekly forum fodder.

Drivers move to other teams. It's not a big deal.

Of course, you are right. However, I don't believe, new challenge or not that you step out of a car with proven, current race win pedigree into to one that has spent three years struggling in the midfield, whether pundits believe it has potential or not. Unfortunately, Hamilton's relationship at Woking has deteriorated alarmingly and his position is probably now untenable although, according to Whitmarsh, he can return at any time. He has certainly p**sed off the rank and file in the garage and there will be those at Mercedes who will welcome him with some caution but as you say, drivers leave teams all the time - sometimes successfully, sometimes disastrously. I wonder which this will turn out to be.

[dribbler]

DPR, on 10 October 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Great drivers have great egos. It's just a fact that they like to feel loved, needed, wanted, adored etc. McLaren has/is/will  never be that type of team. All eras of driver/team domination have been as a result of (on top of everything else) massive ego massaging. Think Ferrari/schumi - RBR/vettell. I think he'll love the gratitude that awaits him at Merc. If it's a sticky year in '13 everyone will say that Merc need to up their game, if it goes well everyone will say that Hammy is the best thing since me. Either way he'll still get a skip load of cash. It's a win-win deal for Lewis. I really don't know why anyone doubted this move.

Easy to say, with hindsight, but I agree with everything else.

Insider, on 10 October 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Of course, you are right. However, I don't believe, new challenge or not that you step out of a car with proven, current race win pedigree into to one that has spent three years struggling in the midfield, whether pundits believe it has potential or not. Unfortunately, Hamilton's relationship at Woking has deteriorated alarmingly and his position is probably now untenable although, according to Whitmarsh, he can return at any time. He has certainly p**sed off the rank and file in the garage and there will be those at Mercedes who will welcome him with some caution but as you say, drivers leave teams all the time - sometimes successfully, sometimes disastrously. I wonder which this will turn out to be.

Based on the current respective form of the McLaren and the Mercedes, it would appear the move is unwise. But then the same could have been said of Schumacher's move to Ferrari. The difference here is that (as things stand and this will be an important one to watch) Lewis is not bringing McLaren talent with him. Michael brought over the dream team with devastating effect. To this end, it strenghtens your argument (if I understand it correctly) that he may have been forced to move due to the relationship at McLaren.

Having said all of that, I have no idea amongst the 'rank and file' you believe Lewis has 'p**sed off'. That, kind sir, is hearsay (unless you can prove otherwise).

To this end, I still maintain that it maybe as clear cut as Lewis wanting a change. That is no bad thing at all.

[KoolMonkey]

dribbler, on 10 October 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

The only thing that matters (and which you have not alluded to once) is that Hamilton will go fast and deliver what is the maximum achievable in the car. Your spurious and opinionated nonsense has no bearing on that.

Neither does your lazy lackadaisical reply. You know that old saying, opinions are like assh0les, everyone's got one. The only difference is I don't sit on a soapbox and claim mine is elevated or superior. I look forward to debate on subjects and topics. So I can only conclude you have nothing of value to say, or couldn't be bothered to say it. Both equate to being equal. Thus why even bother to post a reply, accept maybe to stroke ones own ego.

[dribbler]

KoolMonkey, on 10 October 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Neither does your lazy lackadaisical reply. You know that old saying, opinions are like assh0les, everyone's got one. The only difference is I don't sit on a soapbox and claim mine is elevated or superior. I look forward to debate on subjects and topics. So I can only conclude you have nothing of value to say, or couldn't be bothered to say it. Both equate to being equal. Thus why even bother to post a reply, accept maybe to stroke ones own ego.

Lackadaisical? I prefer 'economical'; If you removed your subjective personal feelings about Hamilton, you may have posted with a similar number of words. I may even look forward to debate with you. As things stand, I believe my observation about what Hamilton is most likely to represent for Mercedes is more credible than your offerings. It makes for quicker reading too.

Edited by dribbler, 10 October 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[brambilla]

Lewis will bring (or claim to bring )  a half-second or more to the car, face an unprecedented challenge from his team-mate,throw a hissy fit midway thru the season, then go running back to the team that made him

Edited by brambilla, 10 October 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Quiet One]

Ahh if  this is about how we imagine Lewis future at Merc then my own version is:

He will go there, try to play the patience game building the team and such. Either the team moves forwards or not he will lose his patience somewhere halfway down the road and become interested in something else (unless the car turns out to be a serious title contender and soon). Things will go downhill from there between him and the team.

Then he will probably leave F1 to do something else (movies? a reality show?), bitter thinking how he was never allowed to achieve his Senna dreams in Formula One...without even realize how much more all us F1 fans that didn't like him have respected him so much more for taking the risk at Mercedes.

I have this weird feeling always with him that all his arrogance and spoilt kid numbers are merely the mask of a deeply insecure but hugely talented boy. That boy is one of the best drivers of all time. The guy he tries so hard to be is Daily Mirror's fodder.

[BradSpeedMan]

Quiet One, on 10 October 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Ahh if  this is about how we imagine Lewis future at Merc then my own version is:

He will go there, try to play the patience game building the team and such. Either the team moves forwards or not he will lose his patience somewhere halfway down the road and become interested in something else (unless the car turns out to be a serious title contender and soon). Things will go downhill from there between him and the team.

Then he will probably leave F1 to do something else (movies? a reality show?), bitter thinking how he was never allowed to achieve his Senna dreams in Formula One...without even realize how much more all us F1 fans that didn't like him have respected him so much more for taking the risk at Mercedes.

Man, you're just jealous that he's black, handsome and rich... and has a pussygirl/doll to play with...

[Rainmaster]

I think he is insecure too. I've always thought that he tries way too hard to please people, and plays up to what people/the media want him to be rather than what he is (sometimes good, often bad). He always seemed less at ease than Button or Alonso or even young Vettel.

Anyway, the move will either be the making or breaking of him. If he leaves F1 with only a single title to his name, it will be a great shame in relation to his ability level. But what he achieves also depends on his development as a person and focus as a driver, as much as what Mercedes can deliver. Next year will tell us a lot about both of those things. What I want to see is the super competitive, focussed, 2007 spec Lewis Hamilton again, who used to run up the stairs to the podium after beating Alonso to show how he wasn't tired. I don't want to see him doing endless PR crap and making cameos in music videos. If you want to achieve like Senna, focus like Senna. Moving to Mercedes is either an attempt to "quietly" build a team up with utter determination and hard work like Schumi did, and as Lewis claims, or a way of XIX shamelessly increasing his global appeal (and I don't think you can do both). If he ends up attempting the latter then nobody will have any sympathy for him if he fails.

Also completely agree: the move is far too over analysed. He moved teams. I've yet to see any proof that he's a pariah at Mclaren by the management or by the team in general. Nobody openly criticised him and he was in the strong position during negotiations; this is not the sign of a driver being forced out or a complete breakdown in relations. They even said he could come back sometime, right?  What actually happened is that the relationship is not as close, and more importantly, the relationship doesn't appear to be going in the right direction, in terms of the goals or happiness of both parties. This was not a dumping by either party, this was a parting of ways with each party knowing that in the short term they will gain some amount of peace, but probably lose a significant amount of performance too.

[Quiet One]

BradSpeedMan, on 10 October 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Man, you're just jealous that he's black, handsome and rich... and has a pussygirl/doll to play with...

BTW, I always forget the impact it has because he is black. I must ask you: is he really that important as a symbol? This with all respect. For me, saying that he is black is like saying that Rosberg  is blonde. I recognize that it's both a good and a  bad sign. Good, in the non-racist sense. Bad, in the sense that I don't see him being too much of a paradigm for black culture.

This will probably sound worse than I intend to but I don't know how to express it too well.

[BradSpeedMan]

Quiet One, on 10 October 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

BTW, I always forget the impact it has because he is black. I must ask you: is he really that important as a symbol? This with all respect. For me, saying that he is black is like saying that Rosberg  is blonde. I recognize that it's both a good and a  bad sign. Good, in the non-racist sense. Bad, in the sense that I don't see him being too much of a paradigm for black culture.

This will probably sound worse than I intend to but I don't know how to express it too well.

To be honest, it does'nt really matter to me. What I do believe is that he is a prodigious talent, and it's good to have for F1 as a coloured person. I've seen B&W ppl over here supporting him, while I'm shouting for Kimi at the next table, but to many coloured folk here that is very important and is the primary reason why they follow him...

This comes from a guy who still listens to Elvis and is probably still his most ardent fan ...

Actually, tbh, I'm at the moment listening to his gospel music, the music I grew up with....

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 10 October 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

BTW, I always forget the impact it has because he is black. I must ask you: is he really that important as a symbol? This with all respect. For me, saying that he is black is like saying that Rosberg  is blonde. I recognize that it's both a good and a  bad sign. Good, in the non-racist sense. Bad, in the sense that I don't see him being too much of a paradigm for black culture.

This will probably sound worse than I intend to but I don't know how to express it too well.

So racist. Eric, ban him.

Oh, and I agree.

[Insider]

dribbler, on 10 October 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Easy to say, with hindsight, but I agree with everything else.



Based on the current respective form of the McLaren and the Mercedes, it would appear the move is unwise. But then the same could have been said of Schumacher's move to Ferrari. The difference here is that (as things stand and this will be an important one to watch) Lewis is not bringing McLaren talent with him. Michael brought over the dream team with devastating effect. To this end, it strenghtens your argument (if I understand it correctly) that he may have been forced to move due to the relationship at McLaren.

Having said all of that, I have no idea amongst the 'rank and file' you believe Lewis has 'p**sed off'. That, kind sir, is hearsay (unless you can prove otherwise).

To this end, I still maintain that it maybe as clear cut as Lewis wanting a change. That is no bad thing at all.

Mechanics and engineers are the heart of any team and they tend to get nasty over antics like drivers tweeting telemetry and taking a unnaturally keen interest in technical matters when they are about to leave the team.

[DPR]

In the last couple of weeks, McLaren have had a big launch party in Paris for their latest re-launch of their superduper car. They have also apparently announced a signing of a a new driver.  - Yet still Lewis (who put the twit in twitter) Hamilton's tweets have claimed more column inches and forum fodder than anything else coming out of Mclaren ! FFS mr Whitmash, put Lewis on garden leave for the rest of his contract, before any more technical issues scupper his chances.

[Jean-Pierre]

It is rather simple: if they give him a good car and a good team, he will probably fight for the title again next year. He will beat. Nico on a regular basis and he will get along with the big boss. He is the second best driver right now and he is not stupid; if he goes at Mercedes it is because they plan to win next year. And with the guy they have at the helm, they might very well do just that.

[DPR]

Jean-Pierre, on 20 October 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

if he goes at Mercedes

JP - Do try and keep up. I know you're only just learning how to read - but please try and at least keep your posts in the same month as the rest of us.

[BradSpeedMan]

DPR, on 20 October 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

JP - Do try and keep up. I know you're only just learning how to read - but please try and at least keep your posts in the same month as the rest of us.

LOL!

[Massa]

Jean-Pierre, on 20 October 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

It is rather simple: if they give him a good car and a good team, he will probably fight for the title again next year. He will beat. Nico on a regular basis and he will get along with the big boss. He is the second best driver right now and he is not stupid; if he goes at Mercedes it is because they plan to win next year. And with the guy they have at the helm, they might very well do just that.

I tend to agree.  Hamilton can say that he doesn't expect to win in 2013, but he's just downplaying things.  They have everything in place to win in terms of resources.  It's all execution now.  Mercedes did not have a bad car at the beginning of the year by any means; they just didn't develop it as quickly as others did and started falling behind.  There's no reason they can't be competitive in 2013; I wonder if they never resolved 2012's issues because they were already looking ahead, and if that's the case, it's interesting, because Red Bull, Ferrari, and McLaren had to stay focused on 2012 pretty late into the game with things being close.

I'll say Hamilton wins at least one Grand Prix in 2013.

[Jean-Pierre]

DPR, on 20 October 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

JP - Do try and keep up. I know you're only just learning how to read - but please try and at least keep your posts in the same month as the rest of us.

English is not my first language and I'm doing my best. However, I thought my sentence was ok.

Do make an effort like most of us to understand what people say in their posts instead of making doubtful comments.

Anyways I suggest you talk for yourself instead of implying you talk for "the rest of us".

I know, it takes I little guts...

[Jean-Pierre]

BradSpeedMan, on 20 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

LOL!

I guess you are the "us" in the phrase "rest of us" your good friend used.

Are you guys a couple?

[BradSpeedMan]

Jean-Pierre, on 21 October 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

I guess you are the "us" in the phrase "rest of us" your good friend used.

Are you guys a couple?

why, u jealous

I realise it's an honest mistake but Hamilton signing a contract few weeks ago and then you saying if he goes just sounds funny JP, it's like u skipped every possible news of his signed deal with Mercedes...

[Jean-Pierre]

All right, but can't one say something like:

If I go there, it is because I like their beer

There is an "if" but it introduces an explanation.

[Quiet One]

Actually, the phrase as you wrote it makes perfect sense in Spanish in the sense that "Lewis is going  to Merc not because of A but because of B".

We would also (in Spanish) say: "If he goes to Merc, it is not because of A but because of B". I have no idea why we use the conditional in that case, but we use it.

[Villathomas]

I think Hamilton will actually do quite well next year, he'll pick up two or three wins and be on the edge of the championship battle but not a close contender.

Its McLaren who I think are in trouble next year. Button can't compete with Vettel/Alonso etc when the car doesn't suit him and I think Perez lacks the consistency to be a challenger. Mclaren could find themselves behind Ferrari, Lotus and Mercedes next year unless they produce a great car and cut the stupid errors.

[AleHop]

Jean-Pierre, on 20 October 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

It is rather simple: if they give him a good car and a good team, he will probably fight for the title again next year. He will beat. Nico on a regular basis and he will get along with the big boss. He is the second best driver right now and he is not stupid; if he goes at Mercedes it is because they plan to win next year. And with the guy they have at the helm, they might very well do just that.

I fully agree with you. The level of the car is what matters here. Of course they'll expect a lot of hard work from him in the team but it won't produce much if he doesn't get the right tools. If he gets a winner car he'll deliver, if he gets a WCC winner car he'll grab the WDC. That's why Mercedes is hiring him, that's what a super talented F1 driver is for.

[AleHop]

Quiet One, on 21 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

We would also (in Spanish) say: "If he goes to Merc, it is not because of A but because of B". I have no idea why we use the conditional in that case, but we use it.

You do that in Argentina?

Yes we do. And we know it because we know our grammar unlike others.

[Massa]

Villathomas, on 21 October 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I think Hamilton will actually do quite well next year, he'll pick up two or three wins and be on the edge of the championship battle but not a close contender.

Its McLaren who I think are in trouble next year. Button can't compete with Vettel/Alonso etc when the car doesn't suit him and I think Perez lacks the consistency to be a challenger. Mclaren could find themselves behind Ferrari, Lotus and Mercedes next year unless they produce a great car and cut the stupid errors.

Welcome to the forum.

Pérez definitely has room to grow, and without Hamilton, it's possible the McLaren may suit Button better (there are times when it seems to, and times when it seems to suit Hamilton, and times when it seems to suit no one), so I wouldn't write Button out of it yet.

I really hope Mercedes deliver a good car.  The more teams that can compete, the better, and with the regulations being so narrow, competition is needed to keep it interesting.

[Villathomas]

Massa, on 23 October 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Welcome to the forum.

Pérez definitely has room to grow, and without Hamilton, it's possible the McLaren may suit Button better (there are times when it seems to, and times when it seems to suit Hamilton, and times when it seems to suit no one), so I wouldn't write Button out of it yet.

I really hope Mercedes deliver a good car.  The more teams that can compete, the better, and with the regulations being so narrow, competition is needed to keep it interesting.

Thank you

I do hope that Jenson can compete for the title next year, as I am a Jenson fan and your right, McLaren can start building cars that suit a smoother driving style like Jenson's, so perhaps he will be competitive more often.

With a bit of luck Mercedes and Lotus will produce race winning cars next year, so that Nico, Lewis and Kimi can all have a serious crack at the championship.

As a replacement for Lewis, I do wonder why McLaren opted for Perez over Hulkenburg?

[Jean-Pierre]

Since it usualy takes half a season for a good driver to get use to a new car, Hamilton will only do really well after the first half of the season next year IMO.