209 replies to this topic

[Shane2]

Yes it looks like you did and you voiced what i think pretty well. Women in islamist countries can still get stoned to death for being raped, and that is inhuman in any language.

[Sato]

for being raped? Far out.....

[Shane2]

Yeah, because of the stupid, outdated islamic laws about sex outside of marrige. Men in muslim countries can also be hanged for being gay.

Edited by Shane2, 21 December 2006 - 04:43 PM.

[Jean Todt]

no cav! in saudi you dare rape a woman, as i told you it is just that they are not given the social powers, if a woman gets raped in saudi, the criminal can start counting hours, not days. thats why many of the arabs flock to india to satisfy their carnal desires!  

yep, you are right, arab women cant be touched, but many girls are being trafficked to arab nations (and kindly returned to mumbai) are essentially from asian countries.

yea, they cant get their veil off, but do you know? most of them are happy with it, you may not agree with me, but this is what my friends (NRIs) say!
    
   the money which may come as an income as rent goes directly to the wife, not husband.

pakistan is desperately trying to become something like saudi and it can never become one! its all show. there is one side of extremists, and there is another side of people who pretend to be very pious. however, i dont consider pakistan as an arab state.

actually cav, muslim laws are very simple, it is just that there are people who manipulate them and use it according to their situation! i dont call you an antimuslim i swear! because i myself as a muslim never understood anything until i looked closer, the truth is that i am ashamed of some muslims (like terrorists and people who mistreat their ladies) but i am so proud of this religion, just as a christian/jew/hindu or budhist would be proud of his religion. todays blunders and crimes committed by muslims can never be blamed on the religion! gnite guys!

[cavallino]

abbas_gear, on Dec 22 2006, 03:52 AM, said:

no cav! in saudi you dare rape a woman, as i told you it is just that they are not given the social powers, if a woman gets raped in saudi, the criminal can start counting hours, not days. thats why many of the arabs flock to india to satisfy their carnal desires!  

And if she dares drive/ step out o the house alone/ without being covered from head to foot, the same applies.

Quote

yea, they cant get their veil off, but do you know? most of them are happy with it, you may not agree with me, but this is what my friends (NRIs) say!

Taht is a bad and very shaky argument, it is the same one used by slavers and by colonialists for generations - the slaves wouldn't know what to do if they're not slaves, the Indians won't be able to rule their own country etc. Your friends are wrong, they can choose to do what they want but they should be free to make that choice. Brainwashing and isolation from the erst of the world plays a role of course, and the few women activists in the conservative middle east face a very hard time, laetr I'll post something about them.

Quote

pakistan is desperately trying to become something like saudi and it can never become one! its all show. there is one side of extremists, and there is another side of people who pretend to be very pious. however, i dont consider pakistan as an arab state.

It isn't an Arab state by the very definition of course, however radical Islamists have gained al ot of ground there (the don't watch movies or dance or music and grow long beards variety), as much as I despise Musharraf it is scary to imagine what could replace him.

Quote

actually cav, muslim laws are very simple, it is just that there are people who manipulate them and use it according to their situation! i dont call you an antimuslim i swear! because i myself as a muslim never understood anything until i looked closer, the truth is that i am ashamed of some muslims (like terrorists and people who mistreat their ladies) but i am so proud of this religion, just as a christian/jew/hindu or budhist would be proud of his religion. todays blunders and crimes committed by muslims can never be blamed on the religion! gnite guys!

Separation of religion and state - I don't mind whatever laws people want to follow for themselves, as long as they do not violate the country's laws - which should be the same fro everyone. India's legal system is sterange that way. Mind you, it could be a lot worse. A couple wanting to not have their marriage governed by legal codes based on their religion can choose not to under a special law, and of course criminal laws are the same. It is high time we had a uniform civil code though, with equal rights for women in terms of property, marriage, inheritance etc.

[Shane2]

abbas_gear, on Dec 21 2006, 04:52 PM, said:

actually cav, muslim laws are very simple, it is just that there are people who manipulate them and use it according to their situation! i dont call you an antimuslim i swear! because i myself as a muslim never understood anything until i looked closer, the truth is that i am ashamed of some muslims (like terrorists and people who mistreat their ladies) but i am so proud of this religion, just as a christian/jew/hindu or budhist would be proud of his religion. todays blunders and crimes committed by muslims can never be blamed on the religion! gnite guys!

Actually, laws about Apostacy, Rape, and Being gay (all punishable by death) are very much a fault of the religion, as Sharia is based on what is in the Koran, and i dont care whether you are a proud muslim or not, putting people to death for those kinda things (in the case of rape the person being put to death being the victim!) is absolutely dispiccable and barbaric.

[Max Mosley]

I think that generally you can have different interpretations of Islam, like most other religions.  I'd be interested in what Abbas or some other intelligent Muslim has to say about a more moderate interpretation of their religion.

[Shane2]

Thats not my interpretation, men really have been hanged for being gay under sharia, in iraq i think

[Max Mosley]

Yeah but that's perhaps only one interpretation of the religion.  I'd like very much to know what the moderate Muslims have to say on it, because they aren't vocal enough generally.  Even relatively moderate Muslims in the UK like the Muslim Council of Britain are anti-gay sex, although I think they draw the line a long way short of hanging people.  However apparently there are a few pro-gay Muslim groups like Al-Fatiha.  Wiki has an article about Islam and homosexuality.  You are right though in that mainstream Islam ranges from moderately to virulently homophobic.  Nevertheless there is clearly the beginning of a more tolerant movement, which I think will surely gather strength over the next decades.  Turkey apparently has offered protection in law to gay people.

[Shane2]

Yeah, turkey is partly civilised, its countries like Saudi, Iran, and Iraq that worry me lol. And yes you are right, some muslims are tolerant, but the problem is theyre generally not the muslims in power in their countries. Something really does need to be done to modernise Islamic Law

[Schumikonen]

cavallino, on Dec 21 2006, 10:21 AM, said:

That is possibly worse than anythign bajo said..

Why?
I got my reasons to say that, most of the women have pain when they are on ther period, and some of them have a pre menstraul sindrome, something that change their mood and this just the beggining of a serie of changes in women because of that, I know that not everyone have the same effects, but sometimes you know when is to late.

[rodders47]

hey mate while you are still 13 why not do some model R/C car racing for a while, have some fun before girls, and then when say old enough to go to a bar, just use the old Aussie pitch which is :

"Do you F..k on first dates, does your dad own a brewery, can I feel your tits , or will you show em too me "     

May not win evreytime but hell 1 you miss out on is one you'll never get  

[Jean Todt]

cavallino, on Dec 21 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

And if she dares drive/ step out o the house alone/ without being covered from head to foot, the same applies.

Taht is a bad and very shaky argument, it is the same one used by slavers and by colonialists for generations - the slaves wouldn't know what to do if they're not slaves, the Indians won't be able to rule their own country etc. Your friends are wrong, they can choose to do what they want but they should be free to make that choice. Brainwashing and isolation from the erst of the world plays a role of course, and the few women activists in the conservative middle east face a very hard time, laetr I'll post something about them.
It isn't an Arab state by the very definition of course, however radical Islamists have gained al ot of ground there (the don't watch movies or dance or music and grow long beards variety), as much as I despise Musharraf it is scary to imagine what could replace him.
Separation of religion and state - I don't mind whatever laws people want to follow for themselves, as long as they do not violate the country's laws - which should be the same fro everyone. India's legal system is sterange that way. Mind you, it could be a lot worse. A couple wanting to not have their marriage governed by legal codes based on their religion can choose not to under a special law, and of course criminal laws are the same. It is high time we had a uniform civil code though, with equal rights for women in terms of property, marriage, inheritance etc.

no cav! women can go out alone, there is no problem, my parents have gone for hajj(in saudi, you know) and they say its all perfectly normal, people have got used to those laws for centuries, and you know what? when it is time for prayers, the shop keepers don't even need to bring down the shutters! they can just cross the shop's main enterance with a ribbon or something and return back to the shop just to find out that not even one thing has been stollen! now you will argue with me that it is because of the fear of their hands will be cut if caught stealing! yep! their hands will be cut if they are caught, due to that fear everyone has learn to get a job!
      

yep! i strongly support death penalty for rape...i repeat, i strongly support, india needs that one law to be borrowed very badly! if some one's loved one gets raped, he/she would truly know the kind of damage it brings to the family, i don't know much about the gay stuff, all i can say is that, hey! am not a gay!

      you voiced concern about the women activists in middle east! all i can say is that, women in countries where they have been governed under islamic laws for centuries have no problems with wearing veil and purdha etc! its only in countries which are trying to emerge as islamic nations really have problems, its not islam's fault, it is the government's. unlike what wests thinks, messengers of islam never preached the religion with the swords, but they had only swords to protect themselves from being attacked. it is better for iran to return to its old days, i mean, freedom!
      
    as i said, every law is simple, its just that people try and exploit the situation! property, marrage and other laws a just damn simple, infact much more simple than the indian laws, it is just that people exploit it.

     i would like to tell some thing, and i hope people understand it more positively, please keep it clean!

it is true that men are allowed to have up to for wives, yes! our prophet(may peace be upon him) has allowed it.. but, here is the actual twist

if a man has two wives, he has to build two houses, identically, if he buys one wife a gift, the other one must too get what his first wife gets, and he has to spend exactly the equal amount of time and satisfy their every needs equally. and he has to love them equally. all in all, both should get equal treatment!


   and guess what? it is impossible! so, prophet Mohd(may peace be upon him) concluded that, you just marry one and satisfy her.

the problem is that, when people read only quran, and conclude the everything with out even reading the thafsir (which is the explanation) make all these mistakes.

and before you ask me this one silly question!
why did Prophet Mohd(may peace be up on him) marry up to nine wifes?
i will answer this.
the first wife was one of the first ones to accept islam and was 25 years elder to him, she was a widow before that, then the rest 7 were the wives who became widows after their husbands died fighting people who had come to attack muslims.(look, fighting= defending) if these women at that time could never be let to live on their own, as there were people who could have harmed them. now you would ask me what about the 9th one, well, she was the daughter of Abubaker who was the first person to accept islam, and she was the only wife who had given birth to the Prophet's child.

    when muslims are viewed from the outside, they are always being mistaken as evil etc. honestly, no. today we see so many terrorists not because muslims are adviced to attack non muslims, but because of the political situation in their country. muslims are not fighting non muslims, but the other countries' government, unfortunately it is the innocents who are put in danger!

last thing, i was never taken to pakistan or afganistan and brain washed
i was a normal bloke who decided to be a little more faithful to my religion when i myself realized the value of it. i hate those countries, iran, pakistan and afganistan, (not that i hate its innocent people) they are one of them setting bad examples to islam.

Edited by abbas_gear, 22 December 2006 - 06:39 AM.

[Jean Todt]

Murray Walker, on Dec 22 2006, 01:04 AM, said:

I think that generally you can have different interpretations of Islam, like most other religions.  I'd be interested in what Abbas or some other intelligent Muslim has to say about a more moderate interpretation of their religion.

      in short, keep it simple!  

[Jean Todt]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 03:47 AM, said:

Yeah, turkey is partly civilised, its countries like Saudi, Iran, and Iraq that worry me lol. And yes you are right, some muslims are tolerant, but the problem is theyre generally not the muslims in power in their countries. Something really does need to be done to modernise Islamic Law

there is nothing to be modernised in islam! the laws are actully built to last till the world ends, you will not understand that fast, but i am ready to send few pms and patiently explain if you are willing to listen, i don't like to type them all here as there are people who may not respond positively, but, let me tell you, i am still learning quran, so, i may not be able to answer every question you throw at me, but i will if you give me some considerable time. but what ever you want to ask, be positive!

Edited by abbas_gear, 22 December 2006 - 06:41 AM.

[Shane2]

abbas_gear, on Dec 22 2006, 06:33 AM, said:

there is nothing to be modernised in islam! the laws are actully built to last till the world ends, you will not understand that fast, but i am ready to send few pms and patiently explain if you are willing to listen, i don't like to type them all here as there are people who may not respond positively, but, let me tell you, i am still learning quran, so, i may not be able to answer every question you throw at me, but i will if you give me some considerable time. but what ever you want to ask, be positive!

So you think its fair for women to be put to death when they are raped? you think its fair for people to be put to death for being gay?. Islamic law is barbaric and cruel, if that is what god teaches us i would rather disobey him and go to hell (or follow a slightly less barbaric and hateful religion).

[Jean Todt]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 03:04 PM, said:

So you think its fair for women to be put to death when they are raped? you think its fair for people to be put to death for being gay?. Islamic law is barbaric and cruel, if that is what god teaches us i would rather disobey him and go to hell (or follow a slightly less barbaric and hateful religion).

wtf? no way? it is the the person who rapes would get killed and not the one who got raped for god sake! read my post again man! i said i back that one law where the rapist (i meant rapist, if i didint make it clear then, i am sorry for the misunderstanding) gets the death penalty. not the one who got raped.

[pabloh20]

Look guys, just listen to a song called Treat Her Right, I recommend the Roy Buchanan version, and all will be explained to you!!  

Edited by pabloh20, 22 December 2006 - 07:05 PM.

[Shane2]

abbas_gear, on Dec 22 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

wtf? no way? it is the the person who rapes would get killed and not the one who got raped for god sake! read my post again man! i said i back that one law where the rapist (i meant rapist, if i didint make it clear then, i am sorry for the misunderstanding) gets the death penalty. not the one who got raped.

Yet women can be put to death for islamic law for having sex outside marrige if they are raped, i don't see you jumping to explain that one

[bajo39]

rodders47, on Dec 22 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

hey mate while you are still 13 why not do some model R/C car racing for a while, have some fun before girls, and then when say old enough to go to a bar, just use the old Aussie pitch which is :

"Do you F..k on first dates, does your dad own a brewery, can I feel your tits , or will you show em too me "     

May not win evreytime but hell 1 you miss out on is one you'll never get  

Haha, brilliant!

[bajo39]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 02:41 PM, said:

Yet women can be put to death for islamic law for having sex outside marrige if they are raped, i don't see you jumping to explain that one

Shane, their belief in their religion and everything that entails, stoning women to death and all, is no wackier than you believing in your religion...  I think you're all nuts though.

[Shane2]

If i believed it was OK to go smear george bush's brains all over a wall tomorrow, would i get away with saying "oh but my religion says i should so it"? hell no. There are certain things in society that are acceptable, and i dont think i would say stoning a rape victim is one of them. Islamic law badly needs modernising, it is about the most awful law in the world.

[bajo39]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

If i believed it was OK to go smear george bush's brains all over a wall tomorrow, would i get away with saying "oh but my religion says i should so it"? hell no. There are certain things in society that are acceptable, and i dont think i would say stoning a rape victim is one of them. Islamic law badly needs modernising, it is about the most awful law in the world.

Nobody said it was acceptable you fool, reread my comments.  What I did say is that their religious beliefs are no less valid than yours even if they are more obviously absurd.

[Max Mosley]

Does human "common sense" come above God's will?

Edited by Murray Walker, 22 December 2006 - 11:46 PM.

[bajo39]

Murray Walker, on Dec 22 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

Does human "common sense" come above God's will?

Indeed.

[Shane2]

bajo39, on Dec 22 2006, 11:42 PM, said:

Nobody said it was acceptable you fool, reread my comments.  What I did say is that their religious beliefs are no less valid than yours even if they are more obviously absurd.

I didnt say they where invalid, i said they where barbaric and inhuman.

[narain fan]

Shane2, on Dec 23 2006, 05:20 AM, said:

I didnt say they where invalid, i said they where barbaric and inhuman.

i wonder ,what your comments are ,on
GOD save the Queen .............
dont u think this mindset needs "REFORM"

[Jean Todt]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 07:41 PM, said:

Yet women can be put to death for islamic law for having sex outside marrige if they are raped, i don't see you jumping to explain that one

   i dont know why you dont get it!
if a woman gets raped she gets her justice! that is, the guy who rapes her gets stoned to death or hanged or slaughtered in public so that no one else repeats it, no matter if she is married or not. that is why in countries like saudi and other arab states where they have been following this law there is almost no rape case, these kind of cases are actually very rare, not that they go unreported. i know a person (my relative) who works for saudi government, he is the one who informed the difference between countries like saudi (including many other arab states) and iran, pakistan and afganistan.
  
        its only in countries like pakistan, you can come across injustice towards woman, because the criminals/ rich men are just exploiting the situation, for example, as cav pointed out, the if a woman gets raped she needs six witnesses! that is bulls##t! if a woman has even one witness she can get justice according to islamic laws. and there is another problem in countries like iran where a woman gets killed just because they suspect her. according to islamic laws, no one can suspect any one unless they have been caught red handed!


  as you all know, iran and pakistan(just 2 examples) have been (trying to) following islamic laws only for the past few decates, the people who impose these laws either know nothing about or they are just exploiting the situation.

[Max Mosley]

Shane2, on Dec 22 2006, 11:50 PM, said:

I didnt say they where invalid, i said they where barbaric and inhuman.

God is certainly inhuman, and if one believes in Hell or the Old Testament then He must surely be pretty barbaric too, if you ask me.  

[Quiet One]

Ohhh i see! My only contact with you guys are the few minutes i can stand being in a public computer and you take that chance to get into all sorts of deep discussions! Ok, now I am officialy hurt  
Being an atheist myself, I can't say I am too fond of any religion, thought I respect other people´s beliefs. That said, I think that any simplistic approach to the fundamentalist Muslim wave is more hurtful than good. The problem is not with Muslim religion, which is full of violent, stupid, ludicrous and funny beiefs as every major monotheist religion. Jews have a variety of causes to stone people. With the right effort interpreting those stoning causes you could actually stone someone for using mass dampers!
And next come Christians. There is a beautiful phrase, much in the season's spirit, uttered by Jesus nonetheless and it goes something like this: "Whoever touch any children deserves to have a millstone hang on his neck and then be thrown into the sea" (you look for the correct quote). That phrase was used here in Argentina a year ago by some bishop in a heated debate about anticonceptives. Considering that that was exactly the argentinian military dictatorship used to dispose of the "disappeared persons" during the '70s, the bishops phrase was at least unconvenient.
I'd say the problem is with fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims are rampant, and they need to be discouraged from gaining more ground. Attacking every Muslim in sight doesn't seem like such a smart move. Fundamentalist Jews have been jeopardizing every single effort to reach and peace treaty in middle-east. Fundamentalist Catholics were the forces behind most Latin-American countrie's coupes d'etat, with the results of thousands and thousands of people victims of the worst tortures and rapes before being killed. Fundamentalist Protestants are the force behind the "USA is the chosen country so we shall go out there and kill all others that opposed to our way of life" thus creating perfect conditions for other fundamentalists to grow feeding themselves on the hatred this attitude from USA creates in other countries.
Phewww...Would go on but i still need to check the remaining topics!