Ban Refuelling?

[Rainmaster 7]

If racing is reduced to overtaking, I posit that any race that sets the starting grid with the faster ahead of the slower is not going to have many overtakings... no matter who or what is racing. Pick a dozen snails from the garden, place the faster ones up front, wait confortable for overtakings. When morning comes, try your luck with roaches. Experimentation may lead to enlightment.

The only way to address the issue _as_restrictions_stand_ is to reverse the grid. Award a number of points for a good quali and then flip the grid. Either that or a second race with a reversed grid.

If that is no-go, lift development restrictions. Some guys might give up the one-lap miracle for "long" distance performance...

Yeah all true. I never argued that F1 was about overtaking though (I watch GP2 and British F3 for that), I argued that overtaking was considerably harder now that it was in previous generations, and that isn't because of the drivers, it's because of the regulations. This seems obvious to everyone but Fed Up (who seems to believe most of the drivers, apart from dear old Lewis, are crap and can't overtake).

+1 agree

It is a myth all these aero complaints. It all started in 2006 when Massa complained that Nando interfered with his quali lap because of aero. Ferrari blagged the field and somehow it has caught on. No one believed it then so why believe it now

You've heard all the arguments and you've even seen the stats and you're still not convinced, amazingly. Next time Lewis spends a race behind someone I'll give you a shout!

[DOF_power 0]

It's called chronic denial.

[DOF_power 0]

+1 agree

It is a myth all these aero complaints. It all started in 2006 when Massa complained that Nando interfered with his quali lap because of aero. Ferrari blagged the field and somehow it has caught on. No one believed it then so why believe it now

Really you're an idiot.

[Fed up 0]

You've heard all the arguments and you've even seen the stats and you're still not convinced, amazingly. Next time Lewis spends a race behind someone I'll give you a shout!

I've been watching F1 for so long that it takes more than a few convenient stats to convince me. You know, I've only missed 1 race in 25 years watching F1. I buy the magazines, I listen to the podcasts etc etc - Yes, I am a sad in that respect, but I love F1. I watched the races in the 80's, 90's that DOF waxes lyrical about as if it were a golden era. In 1988, for example, Mclaren won 15 of 16 races - that was fun - not!

Maure hit the nail on the head...reversing the grid will result in overtaking galore in f1, but the normal excuses are;

You have to encourage excellence so the fastest cars have to be at the front otherwise, they claim, what is the point of engineering excellence.

What the teams really want is to be at the front and have the ability to overtake all the cars just in case they're not at the front in the first place.

In all my time watching F1 the fastest cars have always been at the front. They've tried;

- banning slicks

- narrow track cars

- 1.5 turbo

- 3.5 V10

- 2.4 V8's

- Change the points system

- Refueling

etc etc.

[DOF_power 0]

I've been watching F1 for so long that it takes more than a few convenient stats to convince me. You know, I've only missed 1 race in 25 years watching F1. I buy the magazines, I listen to the podcasts etc etc - Yes, I am a sad in that respect, but I love F1. I watched the races in the 80's, 90's that DOF waxes lyrical about as if it were a golden era. In 1988, for example, Mclaren won 15 of 16 races - that was fun - not!

Maure hit the nail on the head...reversing the grid will result in overtaking galore in f1, but the normal excuses are;

You have to encourage excellence so the fastest cars have to be at the front otherwise, they claim, what is the point of engineering excellence.

What the teams really want is to be at the front and have the ability to overtake all the cars just in case they're not at the front in the first place.

In all my time watching F1 the fastest cars have always been at the front. They've tried;

- banning slicks

- narrow track cars

- 1.5 turbo

- 3.5 V10

- 2.4 V8's

- Change the points system

- Refueling

etc etc.

It's called competition, the fastest car-driver combo must win, that was the whole point of racing, not handing out charity.

If don't like that, then stop watching racing.

When Senna sliced his way thru the field at Suzuka in 88 it was fantastic, it was what racing was all about.

[Fed up 0]

It's called competition, the fastest car-driver combo must win, that was the whole point of racing, not handing out charity.

If don't like that, then stop watching racing.

When Senna sliced his way thru the field at Suzuka in 88 it was fantastic, it was what racing was all about.

Ok, you're right.

Happy!

[Rainmaster 7]

I've been watching F1 for so long that it takes more than a few convenient stats to convince me. You know, I've only missed 1 race in 25 years watching F1. I buy the magazines, I listen to the podcasts etc etc - Yes, I am a sad in that respect, but I love F1. I watched the races in the 80's, 90's that DOF waxes lyrical about as if it were a golden era. In 1988, for example, Mclaren won 15 of 16 races - that was fun - not!

Maure hit the nail on the head...reversing the grid will result in overtaking galore in f1, but the normal excuses are;

You have to encourage excellence so the fastest cars have to be at the front otherwise, they claim, what is the point of engineering excellence.

What the teams really want is to be at the front and have the ability to overtake all the cars just in case they're not at the front in the first place.

In all my time watching F1 the fastest cars have always been at the front. They've tried;

- banning slicks

- narrow track cars

- 1.5 turbo

- 3.5 V10

- 2.4 V8's

- Change the points system

- Refueling

etc etc.

Well of course the fastest cars will be at the front! That really isn't the point, the point is the current cars are bloody hard to overtake in, there must be a hell of a lot of quotes out there from modern day drivers and past drivers detailing why and how it's so hard to overtake largely due to the aero. If you don't believe them, then listen to the engineers, 'cos I'm pretty sure I've heard them say it too (as in, intelligent people who design the cars and don't have a possible agenda to say the cars can't overtake, like say a poor driver might). Anyway, let's just say we disagree about why there's a lack of overtaking

It's called competition, the fastest car-driver combo must win, that was the whole point of racing, not handing out charity.

If don't like that, then stop watching racing.

When Senna sliced his way thru the field at Suzuka in 88 it was fantastic, it was what racing was all about.

Quite right

[maure 1]

Yeah all true. I never argued that F1 was about overtaking though (I watch GP2 and British F3 for that), I argued that overtaking was considerably harder now that it was in previous generations, and that isn't because of the drivers, it's because of the regulations. This seems obvious to everyone but Fed Up (who seems to believe most of the drivers, apart from dear old Lewis, are crap and can't overtake).

I didn't mean to say you said what you now say you thought I said.

But I'll say that what you said is quite like what I would've said... if I had said it.

That said,...

[Fed up 0]

This is my last post on this subject as some are taking things a bit too seriously. I never take for granted what others say..I make up my own mind. I dont need DOF to churn out statistics when I've watched the races myself. Senna in Donnington 1988 was indeed a remarkable race but so was Nando's wet weather performance, Schumacher and Lewis hamilton - Note Senna's was in 1988 lewis' in 2008

Lack of overtaking is down to one or number of the following;

- Lack of ability

- Stable regs have meant slower cars have been able to catch to the front. The field is sometimes seperated by a mere 1 second from 1st to last.

- With the cars so closely matched it is difficult to overtake a car with similar pace

- Refueling gives teams other means to overtake other than taking risks on track

- Aero has some effect, but not enough to stop a driver overtaking another car if he has the opportunity.

- Ceramic brakes have improved braking performance for ALL the cars.

I see cars driving nose to tail in every race. Some try to overtake and some don't - Sometimes the manouvre sticks other times it doesn't. I don't hear aero excuses when Jenson is dicing with Nakajima for 14th place nor do I hear it when Kimi is carving his way through the field. Nando couldn't overtake Vettel because of aero regs it was down to a lack of traction and the grunt of the STR's ferrari V8 combined with the RBR chassis. When Kimi couldn't get past nando at the last race he didn't blame aero he said nando was very fast through certain corners - I repeat, kimi was folling Nando for 30 odd laps at a gap less than 1 second - HOW FAR BEHIND DO THE CARS HAVE TO BE BEFORE AERO HAS A NOTICEABLE EFFECT.

It has always been the case that if cars are of similar pace it either takes a mistake or a daring pass to get by. In recent years drivers that have the aggression and inclination will try to make a pass given the opportunity. DOF uses statistics to argue that Monaco only had 2 passes in whenever - when has it been any different.

Rainmaster accuses me of Lewis bias. It is not the case honestly. I rate Schumacher above Lewis any day of the year, but he too wasn't that great at overtaking. Michael was good at applying pressure or banzai laps in between pitstops, but he wasn't as good as Mika or JPM at overtaking yet he is the best ever. As Maure said earier with the likes of Michael overtaking on the trac wasn't important and it was stil a great spectacle.

I've watched F1 for far too long to accept arguments that say one reason or other is affecting overtaking - this argument has been going on for many many years and still isn't resolved.

I never agree with Maure, but his suggestion above is the only way to improve overtaking in F1.

Just my views

[DOF_power 0]

You really are in denial.

[Fed up 0]

You really are in denial.

http://vee8.doctorvee.co.uk/2008/08/19/f1-...taking-problem/

[Rainmaster 7]

I didn't mean to say you said what you now say you thought I said.

But I'll say that what you said is quite like what I would've said... if I had said it.

That said,...

[Fed up 0]

a better article from 1995

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00196.html

[Rainmaster 7]

http://vee8.doctorvee.co.uk/2008/08/19/f1-...taking-problem/

a better article from 1995

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00196.html

Good articles, and there is some truth in them, no doubt. But still..

You'll never see that in the modern era because of the design of the cars (this isn't just because of the regs of course, it's also due to the natural progression of design)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_nQSdQwtFA - note 1:30 Brundle talks about understeer through the corner, he isn't making it up (and obviously the following overtaking manoeuvre is staged, in a real race you wouldn't be able to get close enough)

[Max Mosley 2]

I never agree with Maure, but his suggestion above is the only way to improve overtaking in F1.

You could also have spec cars, specifically designed to facilitate overtaking. Your excellent article from vee8 argues that GP2 has the right idea when it comes to overtaking...

[DOF_power 0]

a better article from 1995

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00196.html

From the article:

Today the great engine-straining straights are gone - Kylami, Monza, Spa, Ricard, even Hockenheim - and what is left cannot be utilised because the reduction in drag behind another car comes with a reduction and unbalancing of the delicately set-up aerodynamic downforce. Getting close enough in the preceding corner to take advantage of another's slipstream is out of the question, due to the inevitable aerodynamic understeer.

...

That is how it used to be done. The current cars are now so sensitive to front wing performance that they are unable to maintain cornering performance within several car lengths behind another car. It is not possible in any but the slowest corners to come out close enough to exploit any superior cornering speed.

Nor is it possible to drive around the outside of another car. The mixture of tyre rubber, brake dust, oil, track grit and gravel that empties from radiator ducts under braking and lies outside the line, is known by drivers as the "marbles". Go off line and let sticky tyres pick it up and the grip is gone until the debris is scrubbed off again.

...

Based on the above it would appear that it is almost impossible for a current Formula 1 car to pass another if it's performance is only slightly superior. Whilst this is patently not so, it is true that such attempted manoeuvres between cars of similar performance, more and more often end up with an accident. With so little potential to execute a clean pass, it comes down to intimidating the other driver into giving way or making a mistake. The cars and circuits are now so safe that fear of injury is a small disincentive, which certainly was not so in the 1960's. Under certain circumstances, such as when World Championship significant points are at stake, it may actually be the best strategy for the Championship leader to crash both cars out of the race rather than allow himself to be overtaken. Not a good situation, but what can be done about it?

Reducing the performance of the cars is one option, but not a very satisfying or effective one. However slow the cars are, a 1% speed advantage will still need 1km to overtake. Extended braking distances and slower cornering speeds would give more opportunity to pass, as the calculations show, but it would require a return to 1960's levels of grip to do so. The often suggested substitution of cast iron brake discs, in the place of carbon, would not achieve any significant reduction in braking performance. Recent tests by Williams, using F3000 discs and carbon-metallic pads, have shown that braking distances are just about the same. Technology refuses to stand still!

...

For some years now Formula 1 cars have become highly dependent upon the performance of the front wing and the way in which it interacts with the underside of the car. Anything that disturbs it's aerodynamic functioning results in understeer, even in second gear corners. The turbulence and upwash behind another car constitutes a big disturbance, forcing the follower to keep his distance. A return to aerodynamics that are insensitive to following close behind another car is the single most effective way to increase overtaking opportunities.

...

I've said it before about turbos with adjustable boost (1500 hp in overtaking mode vs. 1000 hp in cruise mode would make one hell of a speed difference).

Ground-effects coupled to active suspensions could basically eliminate the front wing or reduce its importance dramatically.

A secondary push-to-brake system involving using beryllium-aluminum calipers and ABS would make some awesome 12G late brake overtaking.

A sprinkler system at the tracks would clean up the "mine field".

Why doesn't the FIA listen to me ?!

Here's some examples:

1] Push the turbo-boost to pass, Piquet turbo-boosts Senna, Brazil 1986.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8GOh4CT2J8

2] Brake to pass; Detroit 1982 with carbon-carbon brakes Watson and Lauda outbraked everyone starting from the back.

[DOF_power 0]

You could also have spec cars, specifically designed to facilitate overtaking. Your excellent article from vee8 argues that GP2 has the right idea when it comes to overtaking...

GP2 have slicks and ground-effects and torquey/modulable engines. I've always proposed this should be brought back into F1. With turbos to push to pass each other GP2 would have been even better.

GP2 IS NOT run by FIA, but by CVC/FOM. Slicks should return in 2009 and the ground effect undertray is in the 2011 proposals.

Front flap A1GP trickey ?!

Excuse me F1s had adjusable wings in 1968 and early 1969 long before A1GP and they borrowed this idea from the CAN-AM Chapparals.

Regulations

The best estimates of what these measures will mean in terms of regulations are currently as follows:

• 1.3-1.5 litre, 3 or 4-cylinder turbo-charged engine;

• no RPM or boost limit;

• energy flow rate to generate 300kW, including energy recovery from the exhaust;

• 200kW brake energy recovery, front and rear axle;

• 400-600kJ energy return per straight;

• pump-legal bio-fuel;

• FIA specified and supplied undertray and possibly other aerodynamic components; [read ground-effects]

• 50% 2007 downforce;

• adjustable, regulated wings and cooling;

• automatic downforce adjustment when following another car; [read active suspensions lowering the car to enhance the ground effect to compensate for the wings loss of downforce]

• lap times and top speeds maintained at 2009 levels;

• over 50% reduction in fuel consumed.

The bad is the reduction of power and downforce. I see no reason that, as long as the downforce is clean it should be increased IMO and the power as well.

And it should turbocharged V10s IMO, not I3 or 4s.

[DOF_power 0]

http://vee8.doctorvee.co.uk/2008/08/19/f1-...taking-problem/

Who the hell is this birdbrain blogger ?!

My reply:

1]

the FIA was basically forced to admit that the problem with

[DOF_power 0]

1. Aerodynamics:

Compared to today, the 2011 car regulations will aim for ~50% less

maximum downforce and ~50% less maximum drag (i.e. that experienced at maximum

speed). The precise figures, including centre of pressure requirements will be fixed through

simulation work under the guidance of an FIA Aerodynamic Working Group1. The aim will be

to make the 2011 cars marginally faster in terms of lap times than the 2009 / 2010 cars, but

with broadly similar top speeds. This is to be achieved by:

a. A prescribed downforce-generating under-tray and skid

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

I still think refuelling should be banned

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Why doesn't the FIA listen to me ?!

I know your frustration - my suggestion of custard-filled tyres would also stimulate overtaking opportunities, but they do not take me seriously.....

[Max Mosley 2]

No one ever listens to me. Spec cars are the way forward. Oh and Max is innocent.

[DOF_power 0]

How are they gonna overtake each other ?!

[Max Mosley 2]

Spec cars can be designed to make overtaking easier, since the governing body (or the contractor) would have complete control over the design. I'd be happy to introduce some of the things you recommend like ground effects, slicks etc, as well as removing most of the wings. Spec cars could also be made harder to drive (more physically demanding, or more mentally so: eg fully manual gear changes) so that more mistakes were made. Spec cars could also offer the drivers some choices that are not available at present that would aid overtaking. We might allow drivers to opt for more qualifying performance at the expense of race pace, or push to pass at the expense of downforce etc etc.

Nevertheless, the best thing about spec cars is that the drivers would all have a level playing field. But they would help overtaking too, not least because the field would be bunched up and competitive.

[AleHop 0]

No one ever listens to me. Spec cars are the way forward. Oh and Max is innocent.

Yes, Spec cars for them and turbo for Hamilton.

That would be fan!