Ban Refuelling?

[Rainmaster 7]

Wrong.

Risk is the essence of unprotected sex.

Wearing tight racing suits is the essence of F1.

But I wear a tight racing suit when I'm having sex

[maure 1]

ITV Article

Hmmmm Im not sure about this, Im in two minds because yes this may shake things up and create some more racing, but I cant help but feel fuel stops contribute alot to the specticle of F1.

Also no refuelling would see some really slow starts to the race as all the cars are fat on fuel and in an event of a fire, it might draw more safety concerns as at a first corner shunt you'd have 20 cars fat on fuel.

I also always used to think some of the slower cars used to use light fuel as an advantage to be quicker than others, and hope rain or a safety car would help them retain their place etc. So taking away too many variables could be a disadvantage.

What do you all think? Opinions would be much appreciated

I haven't read beyond this post because I expect a bunch of nothing sprinkled with a few cool heads telling you it won't make much of a difference.

The bottom line is that it's safe enough and one of the few things still allowed...

I gotta say that I'm surprised by those that go on and on about passing. For me, it isn't what F1 is all about. But if it is for you (generic you), I would complain about a qualifying that puts the faster guys before the slower guys. No need to do the math regarding what will happen form lap 1 on...

[AleHop 0]

I gotta say that I'm surprised by those that go on and on about passing. For me, it isn't what F1 is all about. But if it is for you (generic you), I would complain about a qualifying that puts the faster guys before the slower guys. No need to do the math regarding what will happen form lap 1 on...

I think passing is one of the most important things about racing. There's a qualifying on Saturday to find out who is the fastest car/driver on a flying lap and now we have Q3 where some cars are heavier than others so it doesn't mean P1 is faster than P2, at least not for the race. I think Q3 is ok to let the teams play with fuel loads and all that but dirty air is a too big issue today and it has to be solved ASAP.

Why would you watch the race if there were no overtakings at all?

[Fed up 0]

You are correct, yet through all that corporate goodness, global popularity and manufacturer-inspired technology, almost everyone will agree the races are missing something. Is that something death? No, but it's the risk of death. We humans admire men that are willing to do something dangerous and come out alive on the other side of it. We look at the daring climb of the Eigerwand back in the '30s and those men get respect and awe dished towards them for that far more than I'd get climbing the hills behind my house. So it is with auto-racing. To truly catch the magic, there must be risk and daring men willing to take that risk. Motor racing and mountain climbing are the only true sports...everything else is just a game. I'd like to keep it that way.

The racing is missing something because of the talent on show. The drivers don't have the courage to make the daring moves of yesteryear. Sato/Ralf/JPM were drivers willing to take such risks, but were derided as being kamikaze, fools etc - Hamilton is one such driver that takes the risks needed to overtake..sometimes it pays off other times it doesn't.

You say;

"We humans admire men that are willing to do something dangerous and come out alive on the other side of it"

It is the men that have to take the risk - you cant blame 'corporate goodness' for a driver happy to settle for points when a daring move could yield more. Massa let Lewis through at Hockenheim when Schumacher would rather have driven him off the track rather than yield the position - the same could be said of Nelsinho. Yes, the driver has a responsibilty to the team yadda yadda yadda, but he makes the split second decisions on the track not the team.

I agree the regs and the manufacturers have dumbed down the spectacle, but the calibre of drivers need to share some of the responsibilty

[AleHop 0]

I don't think it has much to do with the drivers but probably they could do better too.

[Fed up 0]

I don't think it has much to do with the drivers but probably they could do better too.

Alonso's move on Lewis in Spa 2007 was one such daring move worthy of the champions of old. Alonso, Lewis, JPM, JV, Nick are/were drivers with guts, the current crop of drivers have been sanitised IMHO

[maure 1]

I think passing is one of the most important things about racing. There's a qualifying on Saturday to find out who is the fastest car/driver on a flying lap and now we have Q3 where some cars are heavier than others so it doesn't mean P1 is faster than P2, at least not for the race. I think Q3 is ok to let the teams play with fuel loads and all that but dirty air is a too big issue today and it has to be solved ASAP.

Why would you watch the race if there were no overtakings at all?

Of course, there are rallies and the such but no, I wouldn't... in most competitions.

So, why? For me, F1 is unlike any other competition. For instance, have you seen how F1 cars change direction? There isn't anything like that anywhere.

[maure 1]

I don't think it has much to do with the drivers but probably they could do better too.

It does to me. This season the level has dropped like a stone. The word mediocrity is kind.

[AleHop 0]

For instance, have you seen how F1 cars change direction?

They have a steering wheel like most* of the cars...

No, I don't know what you mean.

* Hamilton's has a steering wheel and some extra paddles.

[Rainmaster 7]

Put this grid into the 80's and you'll see a lot of overtaking (racing drivers are racing drivers, it's the regs that ultimately prevent overtaking).

[Fed up 0]

Put this grid into the 80's and you'll see a lot of overtaking (racing drivers are racing drivers, it's the regs that ultimately prevent overtaking).

It is NOT the regs that overtake cars, it is the driver. Lewis has overtaken several cars this season. If Alonso was in a competitive car he would overtake cars on track - Using regs as an excuse is missing the point IMHO - If Nigel Mansell were driving today he would still overtake cars because that is the type of driver he is. When did kimi/massa last overtake a car on track?

Re-feulling and Michael Schumacher introduced sprinting to F1. Drivers now only need to drive flat out out between pitstops - if they are held up behind a slower car they wait patiently for the pitstop window and set a series of banzai laps to leapfrog the car that was slowing them down. No need for a driver to be able to overtake as long as they can drive flat out between pitstops. If pitstops were banned drivers would have to figure out oter ways of making up positions in racing.

Overtaking in motorpsort is the hardest part of racing, drivers have simply opted for easier ways to get ahead. Funny that drivers don't find lapping other cars difficult...if the car is stepping out of their way they are fine, but overtake for position and it's the regs at fault.

Yeah right

[monza gorilla 1]

Wrong.

Risk is the essence of unprotected sex.

Wearing tight racing suits is the essence of F1.

Wrong.

Risk is a game for 4 consenting adults bent on world domination.

[monza gorilla 1]

Re-feulling and Michael Schumacher introduced sprinting to F1.

I thought it was Brabham/Piquet/Murray.

Whatever, I broadly agree with your sentiments except that car design currently is a hindrance to the overtaking manoeuvre.

[DOF_power 0]

The cars before Imola 94 were were more pulled into the ground then they were pushed.

Turbos gave drivers a very effective push to pass button.

I'll upload video (with Mansell and Head explaining) if you don't belive me.

[Quiet One 15]

Wrong.

Risk is a game for 4 consenting adults bent on world domination.

Exactly. Just like sex. Wait...

[AleHop 0]

Funny that drivers don't find lapping other cars difficult...if the car is stepping out of their way they are fine, but overtake for position and it's the regs at fault.

I think they do find lapping other cars difficult. Drivers have complained several times about how hard is to get close enough to a lapped car before blue flags are waved. I think regs are completely necessary but some rules could be changed and it wouldn't do any harm. And if they think about restrictions they should start with aero and not engines and mechanical parts.

[pabloh20 1]

It is NOT the regs that overtake cars, it is the driver. Lewis has overtaken several cars this season. If Alonso was in a competitive car he would overtake cars on track - Using regs as an excuse is missing the point IMHO - If Nigel Mansell were driving today he would still overtake cars because that is the type of driver he is. When did kimi/massa last overtake a car on track?

Re-feulling and Michael Schumacher introduced sprinting to F1. Drivers now only need to drive flat out out between pitstops - if they are held up behind a slower car they wait patiently for the pitstop window and set a series of banzai laps to leapfrog the car that was slowing them down. No need for a driver to be able to overtake as long as they can drive flat out between pitstops. If pitstops were banned drivers would have to figure out oter ways of making up positions in racing.

Overtaking in motorpsort is the hardest part of racing, drivers have simply opted for easier ways to get ahead. Funny that drivers don't find lapping other cars difficult...if the car is stepping out of their way they are fine, but overtake for position and it's the regs at fault.

Yeah right

I think you may be being a tad simplistic, if you don't mind me saying, Feddy. It's quite easy to sit where we are and say the drivers are lacking and sometimes when watching a race you are just willing for somebody to take a chance and go for it and it's easy to be cynical when they don't. However, I do believe the drivers when they say overtaking is much harder than it should be or used to be. Really, overtaking a car that is over a second a lap slower should be comparably easy, yet they really struggle to do so most of the time. Overtaking should be difficult when in racing cars of fairly even performance, not impossible, which it seems to be now, barring any mistakes, of course. Also, I remember even the 'lesser' drivers of yesteryear used to be able to overtake, not always successfully, mind you!

Your point about overtaking lapped cars is a bit moot, to be honest, as Aley alluded to. You also have to remember that for a fair proportion of Mansell's era, for example, if nothing else they had steel brakes, not carbon brakes, so the stopping distance was probably doubled, maybe more. This gives a driver who is trying to overtake a bit more leeway when making the move. That's aside from the other issue of even getting close to the car in front in the first place to be able to make the move.

The other thing that always makes me think is that when drivers join from the feeder series where they are used to overtaking, wouldn't they have the same mindset when they race in F1?

[pabloh20 1]

Exactly. Just like sex. Wait...

Is that what keeps getting said to you during sex??

[Rainmaster 7]

It is NOT the regs that overtake cars, it is the driver. Lewis has overtaken several cars this season. If Alonso was in a competitive car he would overtake cars on track - Using regs as an excuse is missing the point IMHO - If Nigel Mansell were driving today he would still overtake cars because that is the type of driver he is. When did kimi/massa last overtake a car on track?

Re-feulling and Michael Schumacher introduced sprinting to F1. Drivers now only need to drive flat out out between pitstops - if they are held up behind a slower car they wait patiently for the pitstop window and set a series of banzai laps to leapfrog the car that was slowing them down. No need for a driver to be able to overtake as long as they can drive flat out between pitstops. If pitstops were banned drivers would have to figure out oter ways of making up positions in racing.

Overtaking in motorpsort is the hardest part of racing, drivers have simply opted for easier ways to get ahead. Funny that drivers don't find lapping other cars difficult...if the car is stepping out of their way they are fine, but overtake for position and it's the regs at fault.

Yeah right

I accept that some drivers might occasionally use 'dirty air' as an excuse to not overtake, and have perhaps been sanitised, but if they have been sanitised and can use the 'dirty air' excuse it's because dirty air exists in the first place, which is because of the regulations (hence why I said 'ultimately').

'It is NOT the regs that overtake cars, it is the driver' - No, because the regulations dictate the design of the cars, which are then driven by the drivers, in fact it's totally ridiculous to suggest that the car has no bearing on overtaking when most people agree that modern F1 is 80% car and only 20% man. I do see your point though, that is that some drivers (like Lewis) do have an extra ability to overtake (but remember that we've still seen Lewis stuck behind slower cars and struggle to get past).

Lapping cars is a different art than overtaking, almost anyone can lap a car if it slows and moves offline. Comparing lapping a car to overtaking is like comparing overtaking with gaining a position via pitstops, they are totally seperate skills.

[Fed up 0]

I think you may be being a tad simplistic, if you don't mind me saying, Feddy. It's quite easy to sit where we are and say the drivers are lacking and sometimes when watching a race you are just willing for somebody to take a chance and go for it and it's easy to be cynical when they don't. However, I do believe the drivers when they say overtaking is much harder than it should be or used to be. Really, overtaking a car that is over a second a lap slower should be comparably easy, yet they really struggle to do so most of the time. Overtaking should be difficult when in racing cars of fairly even performance, not impossible, which it seems to be now, barring any mistakes, of course. Also, I remember even the 'lesser' drivers of yesteryear used to be able to overtake, not always successfully, mind you!

Your point about overtaking lapped cars is a bit moot, to be honest, as Aley alluded to. You also have to remember that for a fair proportion of Mansell's era, for example, if nothing else they had steel brakes, not carbon brakes, so the stopping distance was probably doubled, maybe more. This gives a driver who is trying to overtake a bit more leeway when making the move. That's aside from the other issue of even getting close to the car in front in the first place to be able to make the move.

The other thing that always makes me think is that when drivers join from the feeder series where they are used to overtaking, wouldn't they have the same mindset when they race in F1?

It may appear simplistic, but it is based on my observations over the past few seasons or so. The reasons why a driver doesn't attempt an overtaking manouvre (spell check) may range from a lack of nous to an unwillingness to jeopardise their race car or whatever. Give jenson Button a car capable of overtaking and he will at least have a go, ditto for nando.

Observe recent races and you will see drivers driving nose to tail for many many laps. Kimi was following nando at the last GP merely 0.8 secs behind - how many seconds does he need to be behind before aero becomes a factor? Lewis, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have this problem, why?

In all the time I've been watching f1 overtaking has never been easy. It has always involved guts, daring and guile. Mika was one of the best as was JPM, JV, Mansell, Piquet & Gilles. These guys were always looking for ways to make things happen - they would rather attempt a pass than spend lap after lap just playing follow the leader.

The current crop of drivers are used to overtaking in other formulae, but some are not quite good enough to overtake in F1.

[pabloh20 1]

It may appear simplistic, but it is based on my observations over the past few seasons or so. The reasons why a driver doesn't attempt an overtaking manouvre (spell check) may range from a lack of nous to an unwillingness to jeopardise their race car or whatever. Give jenson Button a car capable of overtaking and he will at least have a go, ditto for nando.

Observe recent races and you will see drivers driving nose to tail for many many laps. Kimi was following nando at the last GP merely 0.8 secs behind - how many seconds does he need to be behind before aero becomes a factor? Lewis, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have this problem, why?

In all the time I've been watching f1 overtaking has never been easy. It has always involved guts, daring and guile. Mika was one of the best as was JPM, JV, Mansell, Piquet & Gilles. These guys were always looking for ways to make things happen - they would rather attempt a pass than spend lap after lap just playing follow the leader.

The current crop of drivers are used to overtaking in other formulae, but some are not quite good enough to overtake in F1.

Well, I've been watching F1 for a fair while too and I also remember times when you just couldn't keep a faster car behind, pretty much regardless of who was driving it. And I do think Lewis struggles too, to be honest, I mean how many overtakes has he done so far this season, excluding starts?

What you'd have to do, though, is put all the current drivers in 70s and 80s cars and see how much overtaking they can do. I don't think it will be too much different.

[Fed up 0]

What you'd have to do, though, is put all the current drivers in 70s and 80s cars and see how much overtaking they can do. I don't think it will be too much different.

My point exactly!

[pabloh20 1]

My point exactly!

Sorry, I meant I don't think the amount of overtaking the current cop do would be much different to the drivers of the 70s/80s

[Fed up 0]

Sorry, I meant I don't think the amount of overtaking the current cop do would be much different to the drivers of the 70s/80s

I agree!

If you put the same drivers in the cars of the 70's/80's, when it was apparently much easier to overtake, they still wouldn't be able to overtake because some just aren't good enough at it.

I know I go on about Lewis and all that, but take the race at Silverstone when he was tailgating Heikki - blind - in all that spray - very few drivers have the balls to do that - Nando at Spa 2007, flat through Eau rouge playing chicken with Lewis...that is guts.

[AleHop 0]

I think you may be...

I see you are back in good form...

What you'd have to do, though, is put all the current drivers in 70s and 80s cars and see how much overtaking they can do. I don't think it will be too much different.

Maybe not so good...

Drivers are now as good as they used to be in the past. Probably they are now better like in any other sport. There are few capable of winning a GP and very very few capable of winning a Championship. We used to see very few overtakings in the front and few in the middle but now we see none in the front and very few in the middle.

BTW, what pabloh meant was just the opposite as it shows.