Ban Refuelling?

[Max Mosley 2]

I gotta say that I'm surprised by those that go on and on about passing. For me, it isn't what F1 is all about. But if it is for you (generic you), I would complain about a qualifying that puts the faster guys before the slower guys. No need to do the math regarding what will happen form lap 1 on...

I agree.

It does to me. This season the level has dropped like a stone. The word mediocrity is kind.

I disagree.

[Quiet One 15]

Is that what keeps getting said to you during sex??

Not really. It doesn't last long enough. The most they can say is "Wa..too late!"

Welcome back, btw!

[pabloh20 1]

I agree!

If you put the same drivers in the cars of the 70's/80's, when it was apparently much easier to overtake, they still wouldn't be able to overtake because some just aren't good enough at it.

I know I go on about Lewis and all that, but take the race at Silverstone when he was tailgating Heikki - blind - in all that spray - very few drivers have the balls to do that - Nando at Spa 2007, flat through Eau rouge playing chicken with Lewis...that is guts.

Errrm I thought you said the current drivers were lacking?? Now I am confused

I see you are back in good form...

Well, I am back.............

Not really. It doesn't last long enough. The most they can say is "Wa..too late!"

Welcome back, btw!

Ahhh, you've improved then

Cheers, ears!

[Oli 1]

I gotta say that I'm surprised by those that go on and on about passing. For me, it isn't what F1 is all about. But if it is for you (generic you), I would complain about a qualifying that puts the faster guys before the slower guys. No need to do the math regarding what will happen form lap 1 on...

Yep.

It does to me. This season the level has dropped like a stone. The word mediocrity is kind.

I think you have a short memory on this one. The only thing that's majorly different for me compared to past seasons is Ferrari's incompetence- not the drivers.

[AleHop 0]

I think you have a short memory on this one. The only thing that's majorly different for me compared to past seasons is Ferrari's incompetence- not the drivers.

We've seen a new Massa, Kubica's proved he can be World Champion... Hamilton and Kimi are not as good as they used to be and Alonso is just playing a different game this season.

But yes, Ferrari deserve a special award.

[Quiet One 15]

Ahhh, you've improved then

Oh, so you do remember that night!

[Max Mosley 2]

Kimi and Alonso haven't been as good this season. I'd say Hamilton is better than ever right now. Even with the first two, maybe Kimi just can't get to grips with this particular car, and maybe the loss of some of the gizmos has contributed to the mistakes, rather than incompetence, and as you say, Alonso is playing a different game this year.

[maure 1]

I think you have a short memory on this one. The only thing that's majorly different for me compared to past seasons is Ferrari's incompetence- not the drivers.

The errors piled up this season by the drivers in the top teams buffles the mind. Simply calculate how many of those drivers need to fckup _race_after_race_ to make it possible for the likes of Piquet to score a podium. Alternatively, how many seasons do you need to go back to find a leader that, at this point of the championship, has less points than Hamilton.

And I don't want to get into Kimi because I may end up reaching for the razor...

[pabloh20 1]

Oh, so you do remember that night!

Vaguely, when the rohypnol wore off.....................

[DOF_power 0]

What you'd have to do, though, is put all the current drivers in 70s and 80s cars and see how much overtaking they can do. I don't think it will be too much different.

Oh really ?!

Then I say sadly you don't have a clue.

Link

To summarize the "the rules" of this Autosport survey ("Passing Thoughts: F1 Overtaking Analysis" ) are:

1. The first lap doesn't count because it isn't a flying lap.

2. Passes through mechanical failure, all lapping or unlapping manoeuvres , pitting and crashing off don't count.

Here are some of the stats for the 2007 season:

270 passes against 675 pitstops;

2007 GP passes:

Japan 46 (fully in the wet)

China 38 (partial rain, damp)

Europe 29 (rain - sunny - rain)

Brazil 21

Bahrain 18

Canada 17

Turkey 16

Belgium 15

USA 14

Great Britain 13

Malaysia 10

Italy 9

Australia 8

France 6

Spain 5

Hungary 3

Monaco 2

---

The road courses and/or narrow-tracks are absolute disasters .

The huge differences between the overtaking numbers from the wet/partial wet races and the sunny street course numbers means drivers do want to overtake, and they'll will actually do so under the most risky of conditions a.k.a. in rain.

Just to depress you even more, the average for overtaking was 15.88 passes per race, but without the wet/partial wet races it would have been 11.214 passes per race and the overall numbers of passes would have been 157 (from 270 with the wets).

Here some other numbers:

The table below shows the number of overtakings ‘on the road’ for positions

1-3, per race, for seasons 1976-1995.

1995-0.9

1994-0.5

1993-1.4

1992-1.6

1991-2.7

1990-2.9

1989-2.2

1988-1.9

1987-3.2

1986-4.1

1985-4.3

1984-4.1

1983-3.7

1982-4.7

1981-3.7

1980-2.7

1979-3.4

1977-2.9

1976-4.1

These statistics are based on lap charts and race reports in Autocourse.

Both stats (Autosport and Autocourse) show there's a big dive in 94.

The when the active-suspensions where banned, the plank (post Imola) reduced the ground-effect and made wings-winglets the dominant source of downforce, the refueling was reintroduced and tracks (post Imola) where chicanised.

Jean Alesi said abou these measures:

"When following a Williams it feels again like driving a Tyrrel against a McLaren-Honda."

So now I ask you again why an Earth would drivers do an insane 46 passes at Fuji vs. just 2 Monaco if they didn't want to pass each other ?!

46 passes is ~2.9 x times the 2007 average (of 15.88 passes per races), and it is 3.87 x times the average of the sunny/dry races.

Had every race been a Fuji there would have been 782 passes in the 2007 season vs. the 270 there were.

So I'm sorry mate but the car and the track do play a huge role in the overtaking process and the drivers actually do want to pass each.

And overtaking started to decline long before the reintroduction of refueling (1986 vs. 1994); that why they reintroduced refueling, they thought it would reverse the trend.

[pabloh20 1]

So I'm sorry mate but the car and the track do play a huge role in the overtaking process and the drivers actually do want to pass each.

DOF, I don't think I made my self clear - I was saying that if you put the current drivers in the cars of the 70s/80s, then they would do the same amount of overtaking as the drivers of the 70s/80s did. I was making the point that I don't think the current drivers are any less skilled at overtaking, on the whole, than the drivers of the 70s/80s, just the the current cars don't give them the same opportunity.

But thanks for saying I don't have a clue, something I already knew, thanks

[DOF_power 0]

Oh it was a misunderstanding then.

So we both agree the cars and tracks are to blame and not the drivers.

Sorry, MEA CULPA.

[pabloh20 1]

Oh it was a misunderstanding then.

So we both agree the cars and tracks are to blame and not the drivers.

Sorry, MEA CULPA.

Yep, that's certainly my opinion.

[Max Mosley 2]

Mine too. Although probably the drivers are a bit better now (fewer no-hopers), which will also reduce the number of overtaking moves. Thanks for the link DOF.

[Fed up 0]

To summarize the "the rules" of this Autosport survey ("Passing Thoughts: F1 Overtaking Analysis" ) are:

1. The first lap doesn't count because it isn't a flying lap.

2. Passes through mechanical failure, all lapping or unlapping manoeuvres , pitting and crashing off don't count.

Silverstone 2008 - Massa spins 3 times in the race - cars behind gain a place as a result - how many passes is that then? The stats are flawed because wet races are races where drivers make the most mistakes and go off the track. Monaco 2008 - Massa runs wide leaving kubica to inherit the lead..did Kubica overtake massa or benefit from his off?

Poor tyres and tyre choices in wet conditions has contributed to numerous driver errors which these stats interpretes as overtaking....not quite.

Good work Dof, but I'm still not convinced

[Rainmaster 7]

Silverstone 2008 - Massa spins 3 times in the race - cars behind gain a place as a result - how many passes is that then? The stats are flawed because wet races are races where drivers make the most mistakes and go off the track. Monaco 2008 - Massa runs wide leaving kubica to inherit the lead..did Kubica overtake massa or benefit from his off?

Poor tyres and tyre choices in wet conditions has contributed to numerous driver errors which these stats interpretes as overtaking....not quite.

Good work Dof, but I'm still not convinced

As long as the rules are consistent for every year then the stats have some value.

[Fed up 0]

As long as the rules are consistent for every year then the stats have some value.

They have value, but DOF's interpretation of them is flawed. If a driver, like Kubica, can complete a race without making a mistake he will overtake errant drivers by default. Aero complaints will still be there come rain or shine so the argument of aero affecting overtaking should be there regradless of conditions - worse under wet conditions it could be argued.

The regs have made a difference, but I maintain that the qulaity of driving is also partly to blame. How else can one explain the number of spins massa had during silverstone? lack of grip? finesse? or poor driving? aero?

you decide

[DOF_power 0]

The rain reduces the aero, and nullifies the rubber line making it the bad (minority) line while every other part of the track becomes to good lines (majority of the track). Multiple lines + reduced aero means the issues of loss of downforce and of power are gone or dramatically reduced.

No matter how you spin it there are lots more passes on the rain. Massa' spins goes under maneuvres, so no they're not counted, they've only counted actual passes.

It's you interpretation that's flawed, the car and the track count for a lot.

[AleHop 0]

BTW, what pabloh meant was just the opposite as it shows.

DOF, I don't think I made my self clear

I said that some posts earlier but nobody believed me. Was that because I usually don't have a clue or because you...

Nah, don't tell me.

[Rainmaster 7]

[quote name='DOF_Renault_BMW' post='262626' date='Aug 19 2008, 04:22 PM']The rain reduces the aero, and nullifies the rubber line making it the bad (minority) line while every other part of the track becomes to good lines (majority of the track). Multiple lines + reduced aero means the issues of loss of downforce and of power are gone or dramatically reduced.

No matter how you spin it there are lots more passes on the rain. Massa' spins goes under maneuvres, so no they're not counted, they've only counted actual passes.

[b]It's you interpretation that's flawed, the car and the track count for a lot.[/b][/quote]

Yep. Overtaking is determined by car + track + driver. Therefore it's logical to assume that at least 2/3 of it is out the driver's hands (in fact it's probably more like 4/5 in F1), so to speak. If these guys were racing GP2 cars you'd see a lot more overtaking simply because the opportunity is there, besides Fed Up, why would this generation be significantly less skilled in overtaking than any previous generation? As for Massa, yeah he sucks in the rain where driving talent makes a bigger difference, the only reason that's odd is because he's driving a Ferrari (front running car) - there were always drivers who were bad in the wet.

[monza gorilla 1]

The rain reduces the aero, and nullifies the rubber line making it the bad (minority) line while every other part of the track becomes to good lines (majority of the track). Multiple lines + reduced aero means the issues of loss of downforce and of power are gone or dramatically reduced.

No matter how you spin it there are lots more passes on the rain. Massa' spins goes under maneuvres, so no they're not counted, they've only counted actual passes.

It's you interpretation that's flawed, the car and the track count for a lot.

Yes and yes. Nice stats as well. Excellent posts.

[pabloh20 1]

I said that some posts earlier but nobody believed me. Was that because I usually don't have a clue or because you...

Nah, don't tell me.

It's ok, Aley, I knew you had understood me. Actually, I'd be worried if I were you

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Yes and yes. Nice stats as well. Excellent posts.

Well yes, I think, but, there are other variables:

- A lot of pay-drivers pre late 90s (more opportunities to overtake less seasoned drivers)

- More teams on the grid (more cars = more overtaking)

- More of a disparity between technologies used on the cars (e.g. when Lotus introduced skirts this gave them a temporary advantage). Since 94 the cars are practically clones, so less ease for big advantages to be gained from technological advances

I'm sure there are others

All of these could skew the results and as Vic Reeves observed - 84.3% of statistics are made up..... (basically you can prove practically anything with statistics*, depending upon what you want the outcome to be)

* Apart from 36-24-36 which speaks for itself

[maure 1]

Yep. Overtaking is determined by car + track + driver. Therefore it's logical to assume that at least 2/3 of it is out the driver's hands (in fact it's probably more like 4/5 in F1), so to speak. If these guys were racing GP2 cars you'd see a lot more overtaking simply because the opportunity is there, besides Fed Up, why would this generation be significantly less skilled in overtaking than any previous generation? As for Massa, yeah he sucks in the rain where driving talent makes a bigger difference, the only reason that's odd is because he's driving a Ferrari (front running car) - there were always drivers who were bad in the wet.

If racing is reduced to overtaking, I posit that any race that sets the starting grid with the faster ahead of the slower is not going to have many overtakings... no matter who or what is racing. Pick a dozen snails from the garden, place the faster ones up front, wait confortable for overtakings. When morning comes, try your luck with roaches. Experimentation may lead to enlightment.

The only way to address the issue _as_restrictions_stand_ is to reverse the grid. Award a number of points for a good quali and then flip the grid. Either that or a second race with a reversed grid.

If that is no-go, lift development restrictions. Some guys might give up the one-lap miracle for "long" distance performance...

[Fed up 0]

If racing is reduced to overtaking, I posit that any race that sets the starting grid with the faster ahead of the slower is not going to have many overtakings... no matter who or what is racing. Pick a dozen snails from the garden, place the faster ones up front, wait confortable for overtakings. When morning comes, try your luck with roaches. Experimentation may lead to enlightment.

The only way to address the issue _as_restrictions_stand_ is to reverse the grid. Award a number of points for a good quali and then flip the grid. Either that or a second race with a reversed grid.

If that is no-go, lift development restrictions. Some guys might give up the one-lap miracle for "long" distance performance...

+1 agree

It is a myth all these aero complaints. It all started in 2006 when Massa complained that Nando interfered with his quali lap because of aero. Ferrari blagged the field and somehow it has caught on. No one believed it then so why believe it now