Quiet One 15 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It doesn't make a difference which way the bloody penalties are applied Barri = 8th Vettel = 13th That's George's word. And he is always right so... We can safely lock this thread now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 We have to solve that, we cannot let the FIA alone with that. Oh dear. Is this another non-illegal loophole? What if we lose one of the drivers down one of them? It doesn't make a difference which way the bloody penalties are applied Barri = 8th Vettel = 13th Yep. It is as I posted first. But the boys are having fun using their fingers in non-intrusive ways... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikyrotz 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It doesn't make a difference which way the bloody penalties are applied Barri = 8th Vettel = 13th It doesn't make a difference -in this particular case-. However, suppose the penalties were the other way around, SV getting 5 place demotion and RB 10 places. Then, if SV gets his penalty first, he goes to 8th (3rd to 5th), and RB would then go to 13th (4th to 3rd to 13th). On the other hand, if RB got his penalty first, he'd go from 4th to 14th, and SV would go from 3rd to 8th. In that case, which result would be correct, RB 13th or 14th? That is why I think that the penalties are just applied by adding the appropriate number to their quali results, so that RB goes to 9th and SV to 13th, and all the others are just moved upwards accordingly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 That's George's word. And he is always right so...We can safely lock this thread now. If that were the case we could safely close the forum It's just odd that people got so confused, as if Formula One wasn't complicated enough! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It doesn't make a difference -in this particular case-. However, suppose the penalties were the other way around, SV getting 5 place demotion and RB 10 places. Then, if SV gets his penalty first, he goes to 8th (3rd to 5th), and RB would then go to 13th (4th to 3rd to 13th). On the other hand, if RB got his penalty first, he'd go from 4th to 14th, and SV would go from 3rd to 8th. In that case, which result would be correct, RB 13th or 14th?That is why I think that the penalties are just applied by adding the appropriate number to their quali results, so that RB goes to 9th and SV to 13th, and all the others are just moved upwards accordingly. If you add a third penalized driver with interweaved grid displacement, you will see that your math needs revision. Just saying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 That's George's word. And he is always right so...We can safely lock this thread now. Where? How? The key to that mistery has given nightmares to some posters... there are 17 page threads still lingering in the netherworld of TF1, you know. Give. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It doesn't make a difference -in this particular case-. However, suppose the penalties were the other way around, SV getting 5 place demotion and RB 10 places. Then, if SV gets his penalty first, he goes to 8th (3rd to 5th), and RB would then go to 13th (4th to 3rd to 13th). On the other hand, if RB got his penalty first, he'd go from 4th to 14th, and SV would go from 3rd to 8th. In that case, which result would be correct, RB 13th or 14th?That is why I think that the penalties are just applied by adding the appropriate number to their quali results, so that RB goes to 9th and SV to 13th, and all the others are just moved upwards accordingly. OKay, I see your point on that one. In the event of that happening, perhaps the FIA always apply the shortest penalties first, which of course is the best way of doing it. Oh and I would say both penalties are correct, since in each case you are applying a 10 place penalty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Oh dear. Is this another non-illegal loophole? What if we lose one of the drivers down one of them? If that happened then I'm sure it would be Alonso. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 If that happened then I'm sure it would be Alonso. Well, I think we know which driver would like to get lost for a while... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikyrotz 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 OKay, I see your point on that one. In the event of that happening, perhaps the FIA always apply the shortest penalties first, which of course is the best way of doing it. You may very well be right. Would be nice to see the rules that govern this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Well, I think we know which driver would like to get lost for a while... Massa? Piquet? Kovalainen? Oh, you mean Vettel! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 That is why I think that the penalties are just applied by adding the appropriate number to their quali results, so that RB goes to 9th and SV to 13th, and all the others are just moved upwards accordingly. Yes, good posts. I imagine you're right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It must make a difference. Barrichello qualified 4th. 4 and 5 makes 9. Barrichello starts 8th. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Yes, good posts. I imagine you're right. Nope. It wouldn't work since the penalties could place both drivers on the same spot... although it would be amusing to see two cars squeezed into a single grid slot. Penalties are probably applied in the order given. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikyrotz 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Nope. It wouldn't work since the penalties could place both drivers on the same spot... although it would be amusing to see two cars squeezed into a single grid slot. Yeah, true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 It must make a difference.Barrichello qualified 4th. 4 and 5 makes 9. Barrichello starts 8th. No, it doesn't in this case. Vettel's penalty = 3 + 10 no matter what. Barri's penalty if applied first = Provisonal starting position (4) + amount of places penalised (5) - any other places gained via other penalties (1). So if applied first the penalty = 4 + 5 - 1 = 8. If applied second his penalty = Provisonal starting position (4) - any other places gained via other penalities (1) + amount of places penalised (5). So if applied second the penalty = 4 - 1 + 5 = 8. So basically, no matter which way you apply the penalty, in the case of Barri the same sum is done, just in different order. You will either be taking away the one place at the end of the sum, or taking it away in the middle, which always equals the same result. Is that at all clear? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet One 15 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 No, it doesn't in this case.Vettel's penalty = 3 + 10 no matter what. Barri's penalty if applied first = Provisonal starting position (4) + amount of places penalised (5) - any other places gained via other penalties (1). So if applied first the penalty = 4 + 5 - 1 = 8. If applied second his penalty = Provisonal starting position (4) - any other places gained via other penalities (1) + amount of places penalised (5). So if applied second the penalty = 4 - 1 + 5 = 8. So basically, no matter which way you apply the penalty, in the case of Barri the same sum is done, just in different order. You will either be taking away the one place at the end of the sum, or taking it away in the middle, which always equals the same result. Is that at all clear? Oh for George's sake! Somebody ask Dave Ryan what the starting order should be! I will take his word for it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AleHop 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 You all are good candidates for stewards! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Oh for George's sake! Somebody ask Dave Ryan what the starting order should be! I will take his word for it! Poor ole Davey Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 No, it doesn't in this case.Vettel's penalty = 3 + 10 no matter what. Barri's penalty if applied first = Provisonal starting position (4) + amount of places penalised (5) - any other places gained via other penalties (1). So if applied first the penalty = 4 + 5 - 1 = 8. If applied second his penalty = Provisonal starting position (4) - any other places gained via other penalities (1) + amount of places penalised (5). So if applied second the penalty = 4 - 1 + 5 = 8. So basically, no matter which way you apply the penalty, in the case of Barri the same sum is done, just in different order. You will either be taking away the one place at the end of the sum, or taking it away in the middle, which always equals the same result. Is that at all clear? You rock. That out of the way, what if a driverthat qualified 19th got a 5 position penalty and a driver that qualified 14th got a 10 position penalty? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikyrotz 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 I guess it's safe to say that no matter what, the rules must have some amendments for exceptional cases: either they must specify in which order the penalties are applied (since although in this case it doesn't matter, there are cases in which it does matter) or, if penalties are applied by just adding an appropriate number to the quali results (irrespective of any other penalties), they must specify what happens if 2 or more drivers are assigned the same spot as a result of penalties. Are the regulations available somewhere on the web, I took a quick look at fia.com but couldn't find (though didn't look too deeply)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 I guess it's safe to say that no matter what, the rules must have some amendments for exceptional cases: either they must specify in which order the penalties are applied (since although in this case it doesn't matter, there are cases in which it does matter) or, if penalties are applied by just adding an appropriate number to the quali results (irrespective of any other penalties), they must specify what happens if 2 or more drivers are assigned the same spot as a result of penalties.Are the regulations available somewhere on the web, I took a quick look at fia.com but couldn't find (though didn't look too deeply)? As I said, it is likely that penalities are applied in the order given. And even in the case that penalties are handed out at the same time, the infractions cannot possibly have happened in the same instant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaster 7 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 You rock.That out of the way, what if a driverthat qualified 19th got a 5 position penalty and a driver that qualified 14th got a 10 position penalty? I would say they are both having a bad weekend. Seriously, the FIA probably have some mechanism for dealing with that, be it applying the less severe ones first or applying them in the chronological order that they were dealt. It will be in the rulebook, probably, I can't be bothered to look. There is, of course, the possibility that they just toss for it, toss a coin that is. This is the FIA we are dealing with after all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freaky2 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 Yeah, did we need the maths class for that? By the way, did you know Barrichello sarts 8th? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maure 1 Report post Posted April 4, 2009 I would say they are both having a bad weekend. Seriously, the FIA probably have some mechanism for dealing with that, be it applying the less severe ones first or applying them in the chronological order that they were dealt. It will be in the rulebook, probably, I can't be bothered to look. There is, of course, the possibility that they just toss for it, toss a coin that is. This is the FIA we are dealing with after all. Made me smile. Yep. It's FIA after all... which means all bets are off. By the way, I've just heard that, from next season on, cars will be fueled pole to flag... I guess no pitstops for tires either. Could someone confirm this? It could explain the shortening of the races, come to think of it. Seems like a lot of fuel... perhaps the diet on Nachos that the BGP's engines are on could do the trick for them all. Hmmm... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
